Powerful evidence for Design?

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I would like to see the date on the Pope’s letter, and the date of the Conference. It may be that the Pope is endorsing the Conference: ‘These things are worth discussing’, not that he is endorsing the results of the conference. I would also like to see precisely what aspects of evolution the Pope s criticising. In the past Papal criticisms of evolution have been far less wide ranging than those of the Kolbe Centre.

There is often a short introduction from the Pope to the plenary sessions of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, whose output often disagrees strongly with the stuff the Kolbe Centre puts out.

I read this mostly as spin from the Kolbe Centre, with not a lot of substance behind it.

rossum
Re-reading the page Buffalo linked to, I have to agree with you, Rossum. I think that while it puts forth much that is accurate, there are many valid and good reasons for revisiting the ideas of evolution as we currently hold them. But such an examination, just because it happens, is no way a direct or implied approval, as far as I can tell, of design or any other such particular hypotheses.

Thanks for your comment on this.
 
Re-reading the page Buffalo linked to, I have to agree with you, Rossum. I think that while it puts forth much that is accurate, there are many valid and good reasons for revisiting the ideas of evolution as we currently hold them. But such an examination, just because it happens, is no way a direct or implied approval, as far as I can tell, of design or any other such particular hypotheses.

Thanks for your comment on this.
CCC 306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of **his plan. **
CCC 307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it.168 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into **the divine plan **by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings.169 They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.170
 
Yes, I read that. It would appear that once again our Church strikes a blow against itself.
In your imagination! Your opinion needs to be substantiated.

Why do you refer to “our Church” if you believe the Church is inconsistent?
The word rōnin means “wave man”. The term originated in the Nara and Heian periods, when it referred to a serf who had fled or deserted his master’s land. It then came to be used for a samurai who had lost his master.
 
In your imagination! Your opinion needs to be substantiated.

Why do you refer to “our Church” if you believe the Church is inconsistent?
It is, by the action itself.

I say “our” because the Church claims me as its own.
 
The word rōnin means “wave man”. The term originated in the Nara and Heian periods, when it referred to a serf who had fled or deserted his master’s land. It then came to be used for a samurai who had lost his master.
Hai, sodes, arigato, I know, even if my spelling sucks.
 
It is your opinion of the action.
So is it that you have facts ans others have opinions?
How do you know?🙂 It’s what they tell me. Nice sentiment. I see no proof, and I’m not even sure it is so by teaching, But I am a baptized RC. I even have the paperwork.
 
  1. Materialism fails to recognise the fundamental reality of purposeful activity.
  2. Materialism claims thoughts have emerged from purposeless processes.
  3. There is no evidence that purposeless processes can become purposeful.
  4. Purposeful activity is the monopoly of living organisms because they alone have the urge to survive.
  5. Materialism presupposes two transformations of inanimate objects.
  6. The first transformation is from inanimate objects to living organisms.
  7. The second transformation is from biological organisms to persons.
  8. Both transformations are based on an act of faith by the materialist in the power of time and chance to make inanimate chemical structures capable of an urge to survive, hindsight, insight, foresight, self-control and control of their environment.
  9. It is impossible to verify this hypothesis.
  10. This hypothesis is self-destructive because all physical events would be determined by physical causes.
  11. If all thoughts were determined by physical causes they would be similar to instincts which are notoriously fallible.
  12. Uncontrolled thoughts are a hopelessly inadequate source of information about themselves, their nature and their origin - and far more likely to be false than true.
 
1
10. This hypothesis is self-destructive because all physical events would be determined by physical causes.
Correction:
  1. This hypothesis (materialism) is self-destructive because** everything whatsoever (including persons, beliefs, assumptions, thoughts, choices and decisions) would be determined by physical causes. The universe would be nothing more than an immense machine consisting of smaller machines. Reasoning would be merely a sequence of electrical impulses detectable on an EEG machine and persons would disappear from the scene in favour of impersonal objects and become purposeless **robots!
 
Here are some fascinating examples of the problem posed by Non-Design with regard to the validity of reasoning:
With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?
Charles Darwin - letter to William Graham, July 3rd, 1881
The problem then will be not how, if we engage in it, reason can be valid, but how, if it is universally valid, we can engage in it… Probably the most popular nonsubjectivistic answer nowadays is an evolutionary naturalism: We can reason in these ways because it is a consequence of a more primitive capacity of belief’s formation that had survival value during the period when the human brain was evolving. This explanation has always seemed to me to be laughably inadequate
Thomas Nagel (atheist) - The Last Word
But doesn’t a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused’s physiology, heredity and environment.
Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

It follows that it also makes nonsense of the very idea of rationality. According to Dawkins we cannot choose what to believe but are compelled to believe whatever we have been programmed to believe by our physiology, heredity and environment…
 
Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused’s physiology, heredity and environment. Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion
So the God Delusion boils down to an accident of birth!
 
One of the most amusing passages in philosophy was by a Scottish sceptic:
For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perception.
David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, p. 300

What did Hume expect to find when he introspected? What did he think the self looks like? A homunculus? His mistake stemmed from his belief that all knowledge is empirical, i.e. obtained via the senses. If something cannot be seen, heard, smelt, tasted or touched it doesn’t exist - according to Hume. This doctrine rules out everything intangible even though knowledge itself is intangible. Facts are not physical objects that we can perceive. We don’t grasp them with our hands but with our intellect.

Hume concludes that there is no self, only “a bundle of perceptions”. Yet how can perceptions exist without a perceiver? What holds the bundle together and how can it understand anything? This is obviously a case of atomistic thinking gone mad! Split and divide things into parts until you can find the most minute parts that explain everything! Never mind about the source of the explanation… or even what an explanation consists of. More parts? But what kind of parts? And are the perceptions the smallest parts?

Hume gives no answer to these questions, admitting he is lost for an answer. His phenomenalism has reached a dead end, an impasse which leads nowhere. In the appendix to his Treatise he offered an even more amusing argument:
“Suppose the mind to be reduc’d even below the life of an oyster. Suppose it to have only one perception, as of thirst or hunger. Consider it in that situation. Do you conceive any thing but merely that perception? Have you any notion of self or substance? If not, the addition of other perceptions can never give you that notion.”
ibid. p.676

The flaw in his reasoning is obviously the notion that the mind consists solely of perceptions and that there can be a mind with only one perception. Considered by many to be the greatest British philosopher, Hume himself described how he retreated to a game of backgammon to escape from the insoluble problems he created for himself. His reduction of thought to “a little agitation of the brain” led him into a maze of scepticism from which he couldn’t escape. His attacks on the Design argument merely succeeded in making him doubt his own existence and that of everyone else - which is hardly a recipe for successful living! Yet he was the forerunner of much modern British and American philosophy. To reject the primacy of reason is to espouse absurdity even when it is cloaked by impressive-sounding terms like “emergent physicalism” - which simply means obtaining all the wonder, power and beauty of life from nothing more than the specks of dust under our feet…
 
One of the most amusing passages in philosophy was by a Scottish sceptic:
For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perception.
What is expected in any case is not what would be found. Hume never went past looking at perceptions to looking at what it is that looks. Looking at what looks, he might have resolved his dilema and seen clearly that the thinking that thinks about thoughts cvan’t bre understood by the thoughts that are thought. One has to go to the “container” of the thoughts and discover what that is.
Hume gives no answer to these questions, admitting he is lost for an answer. His phenomenalism has reached a dead end, an impasse which leads nowhere. In the appendix to his Treatise he offered an even more amusing argument:

Suppose the mind to be reduc’d even below the life of an oyster. Suppose it to have only one perception, as of thirst or hunger. Consider it in that situation. Do you conceive any thing but merely that perception? Have you any notion of self or substance? If not, the addition of other perceptions can never give you that notion
ibid. p.676

No, of course not. because in that dynamic one is looking, again, to the objectified perception for the answer to what percieves it as subjecct. Hume, it would appear, from these too brief quotes, or as they are taken, to have never looked past the objectifying function of awareness and not at the subjective itself. He seems to have been a part of the mechanistic approach of his time.
The flaw in his reasoning is obviously the notion that the mind consists solely of perceptions and that there can be a mind with only one perception. Considered by many to be the greatest British philosopher, Hume himself described how he retreated to a game of backgammon to escape from the insoluble problems he created for himself. His reduction of thought to “a little agitation of the brain” led him into a maze of scepticism from which he couldn’t escape. His attacks on the Design argument merely succeeded in making him doubt his own existence and that of everyone else - which is hardly a recipe for successful living! Yet he was the forerunner of much modern British and American philosophy. To reject the primacy of reason is to espouse absurdity even when it is cloaked by impressive-sounding terms like “emergent physicalism” - which simply means obtaining all the wonder, power and beauty of life from nothing more than the specks of dust under our feet…
Yes, but he took his thoughts, objectified, as himself. And the “primacy of reason,” like science, applies in a very specific field, that being the ordering of the divisions of sense perception as presented by the mind. Had he gone past his objectification and identification with his thoughts as himself, he might have arrived at the correct conclusion that there is no reason to Being. He never took himself out of process, and the futitlity of identifying with process bested him, it would seem. In short, he did not go far, deep, inward, or whatever, enough. He would have, as anyone would have, ended with one inevitable perception, if you will, of a non-objectified but totally subjective Nature. But what has that to do with the falacy of “design?”
 
What is expected in any case is not what would be found. Hume never went past looking at perceptions to looking at what it is that looks. Looking at what looks, he might have resolved his dilema and seen clearly that the thinking that thinks about thoughts cvan’t bre understood by the thoughts that are thought. One has to go to the “container” of the thoughts and discover what that is.

No, of course not. because in that dynamic one is looking, again, to the objectified perception for the answer to what percieves it as subjecct. Hume, it would appear, from these too brief quotes, or as they are taken, to have never looked past the objectifying function of awareness and not at the subjective itself. He seems to have been a part of the mechanistic approach of his time.

Yes, but he took his thoughts, objectified, as himself. And the “primacy of reason,” like science, applies in a very specific field, that being the ordering of the divisions of sense perception as presented by the mind. Had he gone past his objectification and identification with his thoughts as himself, he might have arrived at the correct conclusion that there is no reason to Being. He never took himself out of process, and the futitlity of identifying with process bested him, it would seem. In short, he did not go far, deep, inward, or whatever, enough. He would have, as anyone would have, ended with one inevitable perception, if you will, of a non-objectified but totally subjective Nature. But what has that to do with the falacy of “design?”
If you regard Design as a fallacy you share Hume’s view that thought is no more than “a little agitation of the brain” .
 
If you regard Design as a fallacy you share Hume’s view that thought is no more than “a little agitation of the brain” .
Your prodiguous ability to leap mightily to unwarented and irrelavant conclusions continues to astound me.
 
The fact that you regard Design as a fallacy and cannot explain how thought originated is strong evidence that you share Hume’s view that thought is no more than “a little agitation of the brain” unless you can explain why not.
 
The fact that you regard Design as a fallacy and cannot explain how thought originated is strong evidence that you share Hume’s view that thought is no more than “a little agitation of the brain” unless you can explain why not.
Ido regard design as a fallacy. I have given you methods wherby you can for yourslef ascertain the origin of your own thoughts, and by extension what you might consider to be the thoughts of others, but you refuse to entertain them. My explanation would only be an occasion for you to be contentious and demand “proof’,” something to which I have indicated the means on several occassions. And how in the name of goodness you associate me with Hume, I haven’t the foggiest notion, but you seem to be able to make connections with great alacrityu, whether they have foundation or not. You need to demonstrate to me, point by point, how you confuse me, on the basis of your quoting him and my posts to date, how you do this. Or maybe I don’t want to know. OK, I don’t.
 
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