Practical ways that a wife should be submissive to her husband

[josh987654321]

I feel like, if every day, both husband and wife get up and ask themselves “What can I do to make today a better day for my spouse?” then no one has to worry about submitting to anyone.

Your examples about Disneyland and the Rosary are a little odd. Obviously, if either spouse proposes doing something that is financially irresponsible, the other should kindly veto the idea.

If either spouse would like to add a reasonable amount of prayer to family life, the other should agree.

Why would the answer change based on which spouse was making the request?

“The woman came from a man’s rib. Not from his feet to be walked on. Not from his head to be superior, but from his side to be equal. Under his arm to be protected, and next to his heart to be loved.”

 

[Xantippe]

Even the family rosary example could easily be unreasonable, under particular circumstances.

For example:

1. The couple has three kids under three, and the husband expects unreasonable levels of participation and attention from the toddlers.
2. The husband has chosen a particularly bad time for the family rosary, for instance, right before dinner.

And the Disneyland example might actually be reasonable, if the family lives within easy driving distance and they are Season Pass Holders.

 

[Lorelei12]

I never really understand these questions because my husband and I don’t have impasses like this. We just talk about the issue and come to a mutual decision. Sometimes he “wins”, sometimes I win, and most of the time we make a compromise. There is no “penile trump card.”

I don’t really get it, either. It’s very much like you describe in my marriage, too. Maybe that presupposes that both people want to make their spouse happy and want to be reasonable. Maybe it doesn’t work all of the time, I don’t know. But I think generally if you’re trying to figure out who should submit to who and when, there is probably something else going on in the marriage.

I wonder, if the man were the one insisting on Disney and the wife were the one instituting family rosary, would the answers be different? I’d think not. You don’t go to Disney if you can’t afford it, and you having a family rosary is a lovely idea, but you shouldn’t force your spouse into it. I don’t really think it makes any difference which one has the idea.

 

[Xantippe]

Lorelei12 said:

“Maybe that presupposes that both people want to make their spouse happy and want to be reasonable. Maybe it doesn’t work all of the time, I don’t know.”

And if both parties don’t want to make their spouse happy or to be reasonable, then no amount of rule-making is going to fix that.

 

[LongingSoul]

The Amish seem to make at least some case for the idea of traditional family heirarchy and biblical style submission of the wife. It makes for a remarkably stable society and less then 1% divorce rate.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is exactly the point. When the wife disagrees with the husband, in what respects must she in the end submit to him?

Remember that Ephesians also charges husbands to give themselves up as Christ does for the Church.

"Jesus summoned them and said to them, "You know that those who are recognized as rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you. Rather, whoever wishes to be great among you will be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you will be the slave of all. For the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:42-45

*Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her, to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. * Eph 5:25-27

If your wife is opposing you and will not accept the authority of Christ, preferring instead that which will sully you, herself, or the family, then you have to take the bullet and put a stop to it, forcing her to submit in spite of the conflict. You have to turn over the tables of the money changers and clear the Temple. Otherwise, you, like Christ, are a servant within your family, cherishing and caring for your wife as for your own body.

Remember that: Your authority is the authority of a steward set over a house belonging to the Lord. You are not to put your personal agenda in place of the mind of Christ. The times when you will rule by force will be rare. In some marriages, it will never come to that. That is the ultimate goal: Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Eph. 5:21 Only when your responsibility to preserve your family for God will you “go it alone” instead of ruling with your wife as two servants with one common Master.

 

[EasterJoy]

The Amish seem to make at least some case for the idea of traditional family heirarchy and biblical style submission of the wife. It makes for a remarkably stable society and less then 1% divorce rate.

The husbands, too, submit to the community standards of how to run a household. Everyone submits to those boundaries. That makes the submission of the wife to her husband part of a large pattern that binds everyone.

 

[Xantippe]

EasterJoy said:

“The husbands, too, submit to the community standards of how to run a household. Everyone submits to those boundaries. That makes the submission of the wife to her husband part of a large pattern that binds everyone.”

Yes.

One imagines that an Amish husband who said, “Liebchen, I think you should dress a little sexier. Also, I’ve decided we need to get wi-fi, a really good cable package (and a big screen TV, of course), buy ATVs for the boys and send the kids to college.” might encounter a certain amount of resistance.

A lot of their lifestyle decisions are made for them.

 

[LongingSoul]

The husbands, too, submit to the community standards of how to run a household. Everyone submits to those boundaries. That makes the submission of the wife to her husband part of a large pattern that binds everyone.

Yes it is a whole social structure that supports traditional marriage, but I do think the biblical standard is relevant in any society. If you are in a valid marriage, you should try whether husband or wife, to live according to that standard even if your spouse is not responding in kind. I think a lot of the time we see submissiveness as a worse sin than abusiveness and throw the whole idea of it out the window altogether. We see the solution to injustice in marriage, as becoming more like each other and more genderless in order to be equal.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Depends how strong willed the wife is?

Seriously though I think it’s more to do with mutual respect and a discussion. If the family honestly cannot afford to go to Disneyland, then the wife would be silly to push to go. However if there are ways the family could afford it which maybe the wife has thought about but the husband hasn’t, then there should be a calm discussion about possibilities etc. a mutual decision.

In my case (we have a very similar situation although not involving Disney), my husband said no, I left it for a while and then he eventually asked me how we could afford it (I’m better at planning and figures than he is). I wasn’t submitting to him, just respecting that he didn’t want to get us into financial difficulty which is a valid point! He thought about it and then wanted to hear my ideas…he is now more excited than me! An honest husband who respects and loves his wife, would be wrong to not listen to her ideas as he may have genuinely missed something.

If you sit down, discuss it and genuinely cannot afford it…then both persons involved should agree that it’s not the thing to do anyway.

I agree with you entirely, but the idea here is what to do when after all this there is still disagreement?

 

[yellow8yellowM]

They have to recognize each other’s strengths. If I’d submitted to my husband when it came to money, we’d be destitute even though he had an excellent job. I learned that before our first anniversary and assumed responsibility for the budget and bill payments. That meant a good credit rating, a mortgage paid off in 13 years instead of 25 and no debts upon his retirement.

What does it really mean that you did not submit to him? Did you have a discussion which ended with him agreeing with you? If so, that is normal and not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is what if you had that long discussion and did not come to an agreement. Let’s say it was not obvious who was right and who was wrong (this may not have been the situation in your case). For example, should you donate 10 or 11% to the Church?

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Here is the rest of the story:
25**Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: **26That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:

So husband are supposed to love their wives *as Christ loved the Church for which He gave up His life. *

I am aware of the rest of Ephesians and agree completely. But this is not the subject of this thread. I’m trying to get everybody to really think about this issue from the wife’s perspective only. I’ll start another thread next week about the husband’s responsibilities.

But to respond you your post…Even if the husband isn’t perfectly imitating Christ and is not treating his wife exactly like Christ treated the Church, the wife should still be subject to her husband. And the husband should love his wife like Christ loved the Church even if she has her faults.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Catholic wives are equal to their husbands and have the right and obligation to express their opinions At least I do!. Being Catholic does not mean that women are 2nd class citizens and I don’t check my person-hood or opinions at the front door to my home. I’ve been married 46 years. If my husband wants us to do something different than our usual plan, he respects me enough to come talk to me about it–and he did this when our kids were younger and at home too. The same goes for me. We didn’t always agree, but we often compromised–the key, in my opinion, is to “fight it out”, ie “discuss it” between the 2 of you so that when you approach the kids you are a united front.

But assuming you disagree in the end, what do you do? Assuming the husband is suggesting something that does not violate the woman or family’s dignity or God’ law, then I think the wife should submit to the husband’s decision.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Sometimes he “wins”, sometimes I win, and most of the time we make a compromise. There is no "penile trump card."

If this is true, then what does this mean? (Obviously assuming the husband is suggesting something that does not violate God’s law and/or the wife’s dignity.)

As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything (Eph 5:24)

 

[yellow8yellowM]

The husbands, too, submit to the community standards of how to run a household. Everyone submits to those boundaries. That makes the submission of the wife to her husband part of a large pattern that binds everyone.

Yes! I agree. For example, I must submit the authority of my city, my county, my state, my country, and international law where it applies, as long is those laws do not violate God’s law.

Wives simply have one more level of subordination, that is their husband.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Yes it is a whole social structure that supports traditional marriage, but I do think the biblical standard is relevant in any society. If you are in a valid marriage, you should try whether husband or wife, to live according to that standard even if your spouse is not responding in kind. I think a lot of the time we see submissiveness as a worse sin than abusiveness and throw the whole idea of it out the window altogether. We see the solution to injustice in marriage, as becoming more like each other and more genderless in order to be equal.

Beautifully stated.

 

[Bookcat]

This is exactly the point. When the wife disagrees with the husband, in what respects must she in the end submit to him?

They should discuss things lovingly and prudently.

And the answer may still need to be no while the wife still thinks they should go. It falls normally to the husband in the end if they are are still at odds in their judgment. For he is the head of the family and the wife. She is the heart.

Someone must make the decision and normally in the end it falls to him as the head.

 

[Bookcat]

Dr. Brant Pitre’s overview of the subject:

brantpitre.com/documents/printable_outlines/wives_do_what_outline.pdf

(from brantpitre.com)

 

[fpt]

The Amish seem to make at least some case for the idea of traditional family heirarchy and biblical style submission of the wife. It makes for a remarkably stable society and less then 1% divorce rate.

Why this argument? Why this sentence? Is it relevant? What is the link with the catholic rules?

The Roman Catholicism has several dimensions: the natural moral law of the human coming from the Creation and the moral law coming from Christ (the evangelical law).The catholic couple is ruled by the natural moral law that is explicated by the Roman Catholic Church: not more and not less. *We are catholic. *

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes! I agree. For example, I must submit the authority of my city, my county, my state, my country, and international law where it applies, as long is those laws do not violate God’s law.

Wives simply have one more level of subordination, that is their husband.

Well, no, it is not that simple at all! This a very common misconception, and it causes all sorts of problems!

When you compare secular authority to the authority of a Christian husband in his own home, you are talking apples and birds! A Christian wife is directed to submit to her husband “as to the Lord” and the husband is directed to be to her as Christ is to the Church! That is fundamentally different than the ways of secular authority and obedience. The Lord repeatedly made himself clear on that point.

That is why I included the other passages in which the Lord describes Christian authority. It is very different than the authority of your city, county, state, and country. Why? Because “those who are recognized as rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones make their authority over them felt. But it shall not be so among you.”

Your wife is not here asking the question. You are. Your business is how you carry your authority, not how your wife submits. After all, what did our Lord say Jerusalem? *“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!" *Matt 23:37

The Lord did not impose his authority, excepting to step in and stop what could not be tolerated. Yet he amazed everyone, because he “taught with authority.” This is because he taught in total obedience to and unity with the Father. A Christian husband is bound to hold authority according to the same pattern, not according to the pattern of those in the world who hold positions of authority. Christian wives, likewise, are to submit in the imitation of Christ, not as if she were a slave.

Sometimes, married life will include–or will seem to include, for we are weak and self-centered in our sense of justice!–the Lord’s admonition “should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles.” Matt. 5:41 IOW, for both the husband and the wife, there is the expectation of self-sacrifice, of putting the interests of the other before the interest of the self. There is not to be any keeping score, any concern for maintaining one’s “status”, but only concern to be faithful in doing one’s duty. Only in extreme necessity and for the most serious reasons will a battle of wills have to be taken up:

If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but [also] everyone for those of others. Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Phil 2:1-6

Of course I mean this all within the clear directives of canon law, which recognizes that spouses have the right to separate with the bond remaining in the case of infidelity or danger to the spouse or the children. If a wife exercises a right to take leave of the common conjugal life, she is no longer bound to be submissive to her husband, of course. Likewise, a husband who finds himself forced to separate is not bound by the same duties as if he were sharing a common conjugal life. No spouse is bound to endure abuse, as the example of Christ’s Passion might be incorrectly taken to mean. Neither will a Christian be held responsible for holding authority as Christ did and also being ignored as Christ was. It is the fidelity that is required, not some result of extracting submission.

In other words, if you are *extracting *submission or using some other kind of force to obtain it from your wife or children–the extreme example of the cleansing of the Temple being the exceptional circumstance where that which is unacceptable may be forcibly excluded–then you are not holding your authority as a husband according to the example of Christ.