Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[Socrates4Jesus]

Oh don’t be ridiculous. You could go to the nearest theological library and consult a few commentaries by people who know what they are talking about. You don’t have to trust me. You have absolutely no credibility at this point–you are interested in nothing but playing silly games and wasting everyone’s time.

FWIW, I am an assistant professor of Bible and Religion at Huntington University, and am currently teaching GR421, “Exegetical Greek,” at that institution. However, I do not profess to be an expert in Greek grammar (the professor who usually teaches it is on sabbatical and I’m filling in). You can ascertain that I’m telling you the truth by consulting any commentary based on the Greek text. If you won’t do that, then you obviously don’t care one iota for the truth.

Edwin

Are you so certain i’m being ridiculous when i admit i am ignorant about the Greek language and am reluctant to take you at your word? Please consider this:

One day you are working at your Windows XP Professional PC at the university and you are startled as your Windows desktop disappears and a message in big, bold, white letters on a foreboding blue background with fills your monitor. The cryptic message reads, “STOP: 0x0000008E”. In a panic you call the university IT department and the tech tells you your hard drive is shot and asks if you backed up any important documents. In your horror you say that you did not as you remember that months worth of work are stored on your PC and could be lost. Question: Do you believe the IT guy? Is all the work you spent hours preparing unrecoverable?The answer is no, he is incorrect. The problem is caused by incompatible software and can be corrected by using Windows Update to install the latest service pack. Now, if you had a Stop 0x00000077 or 0x0000007A or 0x0000002E error, it might be a problem with your hard drive. The solution would not be to throw the PC in the trash, however, for there might still be ways to rescue your data. The 0x2E stop error looks similar to the 0x8E error, so one might understand how the tech could make such an error in judgement. However, i don’t know if i would trust him any longer, would you? Personally, i don’t know if one should trust anyone who claims to be an expert. If a mechanic says you need to spend thousands of dollars to repair your SUV, i would recommend getting a second opinion from another mechanic. If a physician says you have inoperable cancer for which there is no cure, a second opinion would be in order there, too.

When it comes to interpreting Jesus’ words on the subject of escaping hell and making it to heaven, i think what is at stake is greater than the loss of a PC, a few dollars, or even one’s physical life. I think i cannot be too careful regarding who i trust and how i determine the truth of such a grave matter.

That’s my uneducated gut feeling. Perhaps your educated opinion holds more weight? God will be the judge of that.

 

[Contarini]

Let’s get this straight.

God chose to inspire Holy Scripture in Greek. You don’t know Greek. You can’t find anyone who does know Greek who says that your meaning is borne out by the Greek text. Yet you will set your admittedly uneducated interpretation of the English translation not only against the meaning of the Greek (as explained to you by those who know Greek) but against the translation uniformly agreed to be the most literal rendition of the Greek into English (NASB). And you pretend to be seeking truth???

By all means get a second opinion. Get a hundred opinions. Anyone who knows Greek will agree that the future tense is being used here, and that the word “esesthe” does not in any way imply that people already are what they are being told to “be.” You aren’t holding out for a second opinion. You’re refusing to take any opinion except the one you have already come to for purely ideological grounds.

The fact is that your entire stance here is a lie. You pretend to be an open-minded seeker of truth, but in fact you have clearly made up your mind. You have decided to trust a few ideologues whose opinion cannot possibly hold up when compared to the Greek text. That’s your call–but don’t think you are fooling anyone here with your Socratic mumbo-jumbo.

Edwin

 

[JaneFrances]

When it comes to interpreting Jesus’ words on the subject of escaping hell and making it to heaven, i think what is at stake is greater than the loss of a PC, a few dollars, or even one’s physical life. I think i cannot be too careful regarding who i trust and how i determine the truth of such a grave matter.

That’s my uneducated gut feeling. Perhaps your educated opinion holds more weight? God will be the judge of that.

I can not speak for Edwin, obviously, but this “get a second opinion” scenario simply isn’t holding any water in this discussion. Socrates, you have been asked repeatedly to provide the “second opinion” which would support your position opposing Edwin’s scholarly assessment. You have avoided this. Your credibility is waning.

You needn’t be a Greek scholar or expert to read a lexicon. You needn’t be a Greek scholar or expert to realize a concensus among the Greek scholars and experts which clearly gives a clear and truthful rendering of “to be” in Sacred Scripture.

This is disappointing.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Let’s get this straight. …The fact is that your entire stance here is a lie. You pretend to be an open-minded seeker of truth, but in fact you have clearly made up your mind. You have decided to trust a few ideologues whose opinion cannot possibly hold up when compared to the Greek text. That’s your call–but don’t think you are fooling anyone here with your Socratic mumbo-jumbo.

Edwin

Quote by Jane
I can not speak for Edwin, obviously, but this “get a second opinion” scenario simply isn’t holding any water in this discussion. Socrates, you have been asked repeatedly to provide the “second opinion” which would support your position opposing Edwin’s scholarly assessment. You have avoided this. Your credibility is waning.

Edwin:

Do you believe the devil speaks truth or lies?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I can not speak for Edwin, obviously, but this “get a second opinion” scenario simply isn’t holding any water in this discussion. Socrates, you have been asked repeatedly to provide the “second opinion” which would support your position opposing Edwin’s scholarly assessment. You have avoided this. Your credibility is waning.

You needn’t be a Greek scholar or expert to read a lexicon. You needn’t be a Greek scholar or expert to realize a concensus among the Greek scholars and experts which clearly gives a clear and truthful rendering of “to be” in Sacred Scripture.

This is disappointing.

I’m sorry to disappoint you, Jane. Can we agree to disagree about whether i should trust Edwin’s opinion about the meaning of the Greek?

When i discuss Jesus with atheists, i find it best to ask them what they will accept as evidence before they will believe that He was God and following Him is the only way to heaven. Their answers to this question tell me how to proceed.

For example, if an atheist says she does not believe the Bible is true, i show her Deuteronomy 18, where Moses says God’s prophets will predict the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. I then show her how this is in fact what the authors of the Bible have done. I then ask her if she still believes the Bible is human rather than divine in origin. On the other hand, if she says she does not believe because she was molested by a religious leader years ago, i gently tell her how people who claim to be good often are fooling others, and sometimes themselves. I explain how Jesus warned us about such people and how there would be evil perpetrators of horrible sins who claimed to speak for Christ but who actually loved their sin more than Him.

St. Paul wrote:

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.(1 Corinthians 9:19-23)Are you willing to become all thing to all people to win some to Christ, Jane? Are you willing to find out what i need rather than shove something else down my throat? (I do not ask this in anger.)

 

[guanophore]

Edwin:

Do you believe the devil speaks truth or lies?

It may be your black and white thinking, rather than hardness or heart and mistrust that is as much of a stumbling block for you.

The devil speaks both, and in fact, deceives best by sprinkling lies in with the truth. He can also quote scripture with the best.

 

[Contarini]

It may be your black and white thinking, rather than hardness or heart and mistrust that is as much of a stumbling block for you.

The devil speaks both, and in fact, deceives best by sprinkling lies in with the truth. He can also quote scripture with the best.

But see John 8:44!

Edwin

 

[JaneFrances]

I’m sorry to disappoint you, Jane. Can we agree to disagree about whether i should trust Edwin’s opinion about the meaning of the Greek?

Socrates, I am not asking you to trust Edwin. Rather, I have asked you to provide support for that which you do believe.

The difference between this conversation and your discussions with atheists is that when you speak with atheists you have an idea of what they believe. At this point, I am still quite unaware of your beliefs. You challenge my beliefs and the support I provide, yet seem unwilling to do the small bit a legwork it would take to substantiate your own thoughts.

You have rejected at least two advisors regarding the Greek based on mistrust, but expect everyone to trust your (or your wife’s, I believe it was) advice regarding the English. When crossed with additional evidence challenging your understanding of the English, you have ignored it (see post #101, “Be fruitful and multiply”). This is why I am disappointed. I expected more.

Their answers to this question tell me how to proceed.

What is your answer? What evidence would be enough for you?

Are you willing to become all thing to all people to win some to Christ, Jane?

To seek, know, and obey God’s will is the constant desire of my will. Just this morning alone, He has required me to be servant, cook, janitor, care-taker, counselor, warden, judge, teacher, friend, wife, and mother (to name a few).

Are you willing to find out what i need rather than shove something else down my throat? (I do not ask this in anger.)

I still return to this thread, do I not? All I have asked in return is your willingness to communicate beyond a forced method which has not served to bring about any resolution or understanding. I presume you are willing to take the medicine you prescribe.

 

[mikeledes]

Okay… I’m confused. How did this discussion shift from the topic of this thread to a discussion on how much Greek a person knows? Soc, I do not understand your position in this discussion. Can you please explain it to me?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Okay… I’m confused. How did this discussion shift from the topic of this thread to a discussion on how much Greek a person knows? Soc, I do not understand your position in this discussion. Can you please explain it to me?

God Bless,
Michael

LOL! You’re OK in my book, Michael! It’s a little confusing to me, too. Let me do my best to explain from my point of view:

In another discussion thread Jane and Edwin were trying to explain to me what Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48 meant:
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
That was the topic of discussion in that thread. It’s an important topic, as that verse, i believe, is the point of Jesus’ entire sermon. Edwin explained what the words meant in Greek. I said it’s all Greek to me; why don’t we stick to English? Jane insisted i was being unreasonable to not listen to Edwin. Someone else said, “Wait a minute, guys, Hebrews chapter 10 explains what Jesus means.” Jane and Edwin wanted to continue to argue about Matthew 5:48.

So i started a new discussion thread asking people to explain what Hebrews, chapter 10 means. I hoped that this would help me understand Jesus. I thought that if Jane and Edwin wanted to continue the debate about Matthew 5:48 they could do so in the other room. I was wrong. They took the fight here.

No one was answering my questions about Hebrews 10, so i thought i’d show them the respect of continuing the dialog with them about Matthew 5:48. I did to the point that i thought the three of us would agree to disagree so that we could move on to Hebrews 10, which seems a good passage to consider because it talks about the same subject, that is, how to become perfect.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
(Hebrews 10:11-13)
You have never failed to be kind and respectful to me, Michael. Tell me, what do you think Hebrews 10 means? Specifically, what are the meaning of these words?

… because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The author of Hebrews believes it is God who perfects.

You can not escape the essential Christian doctrine of perfection through obedience and sanctification by appealing to Hebrews.

Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered, and when perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, designated by God as high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 5:8-10

Jane:

Thank you for answering my question. I’m not sure i understand your answer, so i’d like to ask more questions. I don’t know if you have the patience for this. Socrates said of himself in *Theaetetus *that he was known for driving men to their wits end, so that they either fled from him, or loved him, or wanted to see him dead. I think, maybe, you agree that i do the same.

Perhaps you do see, however, that i’m genuinely (like Socrates) looking for the truth that will convince me. Discussing the meaning of Jesus’ words in the original Greek will not convince me. Using a clear passage of Scripture to explain one that does not seem clear to me (but does seem clear to you) will.

You mentioned Hebrews 5:

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.(Hebrews 5:7-10)The passage, i believe, is discussing Jesus’ stressful night of prayer the evening before his execution. The stress was so great that, i have been told, he bled from his sweat glands, which is a medical condition the name of which escapes me at the moment. This was the prayer where Mark quotes Him:

“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”(Mark 14:36)Abba, of course, is the Hebrew word for daddy, which i often heard when i visited Jerusalem with friends years ago. It’s almost as if he was reduced to the state of a weeping child. Jesus was a courageous man in the face of evil men, but in the face of this, He had great fear. Of course, His love for you and me was greater than His fear of being separated from His Daddy’s love.

What i don’t understand is how Hebrews 5 explains Hebrews 10.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
(Hebrews 10:11-14)

If you are not yet at your wits end, will you please explain?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It may be your black and white thinking, rather than hardness or heart and mistrust that is as much of a stumbling block for you.

The devil speaks both, and in fact, deceives best by sprinkling lies in with the truth. He can also quote scripture with the best.

Yes, i agree Guano. I think Edwin would agree, too.

Edwin: If you do agree with Guano, do you think the devil seeks to deceive people about the true intentions of the Father’s kids? Does he seek to slander them or help others see the truth about their intentions?

 

[guanophore]

Jane:

Perhaps you do see, however, that i’m genuinely (like Socrates) looking for the truth that will convince me. Discussing the meaning of Jesus’ words in the original Greek will not convince me. Using a clear passage of Scripture to explain one that does not seem clear to me (but does seem clear to you) will.

Abba, of course, is the Hebrew word for daddy, which i often heard when i visited Jerusalem with friends years ago. It’s almost as if he was reduced to the state of a weeping child. Jesus was a courageous man in the face of evil men, but in the face of this, He had great fear. Of course, His love for you and me was greater than His fear of being separated from His Daddy’s love.

If you are not yet at your wits end, will you please explain?

What makes your quest seem disingenuous, Socrates, is your method. You have ruled out the use of original language to help understand the meaning. Above there is an example of how the word “Abba”, and Aramaic word used by Jesus helps us to better understand his relationship with his father.

Anyone who is serious about understanding the meaning of the teachings yearns to go back to the original languages as much as possible. However, you have refused to look at these passages through that lens. The English to which you have confined yourself communicates the concepts differently than the ancient languages do.

It is up to you if you wish to try to learn these truths through limited means, but it is frustrating to those who are trying to help you when you lock yourself in such a cell, and do not allow treasures to be brought to you.

 

[JaneFrances]

What i don’t understand is how Hebrews 5 explains Hebrews 10.

First, I would point out that I do not believe that Hebrews 5 “explains” Hebrews 10. One verse of Scripture does not fully explain another. It is helpful to compare Scriptures, to be sure. This was my purpose. Comparison is one thing, complete explanations are another.

The point of mentioning the passage from Hebrews 5 is simply to present another Scripture which mentions this topic of “perfection.”

In this particular passage, Christ is said to have been “perfected.” Now, we know that he is God. We know that he never sinned. We know that he was fully obedient to the Father. And we know that Christ tells us that anyone who sees Him has seen the Father, so we could presume that he is perfect as the Father is perfect. SO, what is the meaning of this same Christ our Lord being “perfected” if we know that he is already perfect?

This point, of course, pertains to our exploration of the word “perfect” in Hebrews 10. I would not argue that it “explains” it all, but that it certainly must be related.

This is the same relationship I see between the “be perfect” passage in Matthew and the “perfect forever” passage in Hebrews 10. They are surely related, especially as the same word “perfect” is used, but neither fully explains the other. To demand that they do is your method, not mine.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
(Hebrews 10:11-14)

If you are not yet at your wits end, will you please explain?

Before I am able to make any sort of effort towards explaining this passage, it would require you to accept my understanding of the word “perfect.” Now, mine is based on an etymological understanding. I accept, for now, that you will not believe any one’s explanation of the original text in the original languages. So, I am at a loss as to how to proceed as the Biblical usage of “perfect” differs somewhat from the common English usage.

Perhaps, you could offer some advice on how best to resolve this issue?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates, I am not asking you to trust Edwin. Rather, I have asked you to provide support for that which you do believe. …What is your answer? What evidence would be enough for you? …I still return to this thread, do I not? All I have asked in return is your willingness to communicate beyond a forced method which has not served to bring about any resolution or understanding. I presume you are willing to take the medicine you prescribe.

Jane:

Yes, i do recall that i asked if you wanted me to ask questions to understand what you believe or if you wanted to ask questions of me. I do appreciate your patience and honest.

When you ask what i believe, i’m not sure whether you asking (1) what i think might be true, or (2) what i am certain is the truth, or (3) what i know for certain is the truth and in which i am placing my trust. Regarding this topic of what Jesus meant when he said

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(New American Bible)

or “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

(New American Standard Bible)
i do have a belief, though it is not a certainty (2), it is only one of which i am uncertain (3). In fact, there are many beliefs about what Jesus meant by these words (at least 12 major schools of thought). Roman Catholics do not even agree on what this passage means, for their is the mainstream view of Catholicism and then the other view, which was, as you mentioned several days ago, taught by St. Francis. The 12 major views are briefly stated here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

At this link, i think number 10 and number 11 are closest to what Hebrews 10 teaches.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sorry, see my edit in the last post. Numbers 10 and 11 appear to be closest to the truth.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Before I am able to make any sort of effort towards explaining this passage, it would require you to accept my understanding of the word “perfect.” Now, mine is based on an etymological understanding. I accept, for now, that you will not believe any one’s explanation of the original text in the original languages. So, I am at a loss as to how to proceed as the Biblical usage of “perfect” differs somewhat from the common English usage.

Perhaps, you could offer some advice on how best to resolve this issue?

Let me think about that and get back to you. Also, i don’t want to be unreasonable. If you want to continue down the road of your answering my questions about the meaning of Hebrews 10, i’m good with that. If you want to discuss how what i think might be the meaning is not the actual meaning of Hebrews 10 or Matthew 5, i’m willing to go down that road, instead. Let me know what you prefer.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Talk with ya’ later!

 

[cpayne]

Jane:

Thank you for answering my question. I’m not sure i understand your answer, so i’d like to ask more questions.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

Yes, i do recall that i asked if you wanted me to ask questions to understand what you believe or if you wanted to ask questions of me. I do appreciate your patience and honest.

No, once again, you misunderstood me. You said that I should be like St. Paul and should will to become all things to all people. My response about taking your own medicine meant that I would hope you would be as willing to be flexible and dynamic.

When you ask what i believe, i’m not sure whether you asking (1) what i think might be true, or (2) what i am certain is the truth, or (3) what i know for certain is the truth and in which i am placing my trust.

My question was simple. What do you believe? I did not ask you to qualify that belief as “certain.” You, presumably, are a human being and as such I would ordinarily expect that your beliefs are subject to change and growth depending on information, experience, and grace.

Roman Catholics do not even agree on what this passage means

One of the beauties of Catholicism is the freedom one has in receiving the Word. As you have suggested, there are varied understandings of Sacred Scripture among Catholic saints and theologians alike. Theological theories and Scriptural interpretations are deemed acceptable not by their being identical to each other, but rather by their harmony within the broader realm of Catholic teaching. Hence, the Thomists and Molinists, for example.

for their is the mainstream view of Catholicism

RED FLAG!!! In general, a “maintstream view” does not necessarily qualify as an official or even an acceptable teaching.

and then the other view, which was, as you mentioned several days ago, taught by St. Francis.

Forgive me, but as you find Greek explanations suspect, I have the same gut-reaction to wiki-information. Particularly this article which you have provided as your source for Catholic teaching.

This article states,

The Double Standard View is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church. It divides the teachings of the Sermon into general precepts and specific counsels. Obedience to the general precepts is essential for salvation, but obedience to the counsels is only necessary for perfection. The great mass of the population need only concern themselves with the precepts; the counsels must be followed by only a pious few such as the clergy and monks. This theory was initiated by St. Augustine and later fully developed by St. Thomas Aquinas, though an early version of it is cited in Did. [2] 6:2, “For if you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able to do this, do what you are able” (Roberts-Donaldson), and reflected in the Apostolic Decree of the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:19-21). Geoffrey Chaucer also did much to popularize this view among speakers of English with his Canterbury Tales (Wife of Bath’s Prologue, v. 117-118)

The above statement is flawed. I can not even begin to accept the veracity of the entire article based on this statement alone. Why would you trust it? Do you know the author? Have you substantiated the evidences? This is curious to me, given your sensibilities thus far.

The Church has not made any sort of statement posing an offical position, such as the “Double Standard Theory,” to fully interpret Christ’s words “be perfect.” Surely, if you know of some official statement, you can provide it.

Further, the statement: “The great mass of the population need only concern themselves with the precepts; the counsels must be followed by only a pious few such as the clergy and monks” is not the exact meaning of the distinction between precepts and counsels. For the exact meaning, see here:newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

In short, Christ’s instruction “be perfect” applies to everyone, regardless of the precept/counsel distinctions.

At this link, i think number 10 and number 11 are closest to what Hebrews 10 teaches.

Great! Now we are getting somewhere. Please explain.