Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[Truthstalker]

I’m visiting this form looking for the truth, and i want to thank everyone who has been so kind to answer all my questions. In one discussion thread i was trying to find out what role the good things i do have in my getting to heaven. Are the good things i do out of love for Jesus the reason He gives me eternal life or the result of His already giving me eternal life?

One thoughtful person said that the good things i do are certainly a reason (not a result), for Jesus said:“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)So, i asked in another discussion thread how i might be perfect. The answers many helpful people gave me talked about all the good things i should do that would help me become perfect. I felt like Socrates who thought it strange that Protagoras saw no difference between being good and becoming good. I could understand how Jesus saying, “Become perfect” would be explained by doing good more and more, but i did not comprehend how i could ever reach a state of practical perfection and literally “be perfect” and as perfectly good as God Himself.

Then one helpful person suggested that this passage had the answeray after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:11-13)He did not, however, go so far as to explain why this section of the Bible explains how i can be perfect.

Therefore, i’m asking anyone who has an idea what Hebrews, chapter 10 means to try to explain it to me. I have an idea, but i don’t want to hold it up like some kind of sword and challenge everyone to defeat it. I want to hear what others have to say and seriously consider whether what they say is true.

Please tell me, what do you think it is that the author of Hebrews believes makes us as perfect as God?

Well, HE did it. We cannot do it. That is, we cannot make ourselves perfect. Sort of like our work is like a child’s popgun when God has turned the whole of creation into a massive cannon to make us perfect. God’s overwhelming grace can overwhelm, can overwhelm on many levels. I would suggest you start there, with the concepts of grace: unmerited favor with God (you don’t need to be perfect to receive the love of God, Who catches fish, then cleans them), forgiveness, power to change, cleansing. All kinds of stuff in one little word we name girl-children with and think it means walking daintily and sticking out the pinkie when pouring tea.

You can pour tea; God pours waterfalls of grace in a universe He made in a way that could contain His grace onto people he made to receive His grace: you and me. Stronger than iron, higher than the sky, more lasting than time: grace. Who can track its depths or mark its height, or even grasp it? Paul prayed in Ephesians :

1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might

and I’d look at Ephesians 3.

You can’t be perfect on your own. But you can do all things through Christ Who strengthens you. How can you be perfect? In Christ, through Christ, by Christ, because of Christ, for Christ. No other way. We strive in Christ, but we strive with His power, in cooperation with Him, with His grace. We are made perfect by His Holy Spirit. Not our own power or ability, but His.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… You can’t be perfect on your own. But you can do all things through Christ Who strengthens you. How can you be perfect? In Christ, through Christ, by Christ, because of Christ, for Christ. No other way. We strive in Christ, but we strive with His power, in cooperation with Him, with His grace. We are made perfect by His Holy Spirit. Not our own power or ability, but His.

TS:

Can you and i, before we physically die, become perfectly as good as God, and then once we become this perfect, can we be (or remain) perfect in the practical sense? (That is, is it really possible, before physical death, to reach a state of sinless perfection so that we never need to confess our sins again?) Is this the kind of perfection you think Jesus had in mind when he said this?

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)If not, then what kind of perfection did He have in mind?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

JaneFrances:

Sorry for calling you Janet. Stupid mistake on my part!

 

[Truthstalker]

TS:

Can you and i, before we physically die, become perfectly as good as God, and then once we become this perfect, can we be (or remain) perfect in the practical sense? (That is, is it really possible, before physical death, to reach a state of sinless perfection so that we never need to confess our sins again?) Is this the kind of perfection you think Jesus had in mind when he said this?

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)If not, then what kind of perfection did He have in mind?

As good as God? It would take a long time to answer that, probably longer than there is time in the universe, and I am not able to answer it completely. So I will try for an admittedly imperfect answer.

For one thing, I observe my body, part of me, slowing down and decaying with age. I carry the consequences of the sin of Adam, and some of my own, mainly from overeating and sitting around not exercising enough, and not brushing my teeth enough, etc., so this body is getting worse. I will not be perfectly healthy when I die, and things are going downhill. When I was 18 I was immortal; now I am a wreck and it is getting worse. Jesus’ body is glorified, something that will not happen here.

My mind? Where did I put it? Chock full of things, but I left it somewhere around here…I’m not as sharp as I was, certainly not as sharp as I thought I was, and certainly there are a lot of things that I will never understand, like cricket, women and how to build a working tessaract. God, on the other hand, has infinite comprehension.of everything, and His mind is on everything. Nothing gets past Him. No way I can be that good.

Spiritually? Well, I can confess my sins, I can be forgiven, but give me the opportunity and there I go again. There always seems to be more stuff to discover and repent of. And the cleaner I am the worse the stuff seems to be. Perfect? No. Forgiven? Yes. There is some sanctification occuring but at the present rate in another 2,765,432.93 years I will achieve some semblance of godliness. That’s what it feels like, anyway.

Some other way? Nothing comes to mind, not on earth. Hmmm.

There was a movement in the Methodist Church, the holiness movement, where they believed that one could become completely sanctified on earth, and after that second blessing, one would no longer be capable of sin. They were precursors to the Pentecostals and there are still Wesleyan Holiness Churches around. I don’t know much about them and I may be grossly misrepresenting them.

Forgiven? Yes. Not condemned? Yes. See Romans 8:1 and following. Then go back and read Romans 7. Also Philippians 4, I think (I don’t have a Bible right here) where Paul talks about pressing on, not that he had arrived.

But is it possible to be perfect on earth, as you describe? Yes, by a special grace of God. Catholics hold it dogmatically true that Mary, the Mother of the Lord, never sinned. It is possible. Probable for you or me? That is another issue.

You can also think of it this way: Jesus never commands someone to do something He does not give them the grace to do it with. He does not have us live out His life in us on our own strength. We cannot do it. If you want to be perfect, I suggest the following:

1. Ask God for the grace to ask Him for the grace you need for this.
2. Ask God for the grace to yield to HIm fully and completely, without hesitation, regardless of the cost to you personally or to anyone else.
3. Ask God for the grace to be willing to pay the price.
4. Take up your cross and follow Him.
5. Keep praying, keep obeying, keep yielding, keep living in grace. Keep on keeping on.
6. Don’t worry about whether you are perfect. Worry about whether you are pleasing Jesus. The perfection, if and when it comes, probably would sneak up on you and you wouldn’t notice, because your eyes would be on Jesus, not on you.

Be warned that God loves to trash people’s lives that He might make them saints. There are easier ways to live but only one safe way to die - in Jesus. It’s called discipleship.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Malcom:

How much would a person have to give to be as perfect as God? Do you think it is possible to be perfect practically, or do you agree with Dude that this is not possible? Can you think of a different way you and i can be perfect other than to be in a state of practical sinless perfection?

1. “Perfectionism” is a delusion - it has on occasion led those who think they are perfect to think they are sinless, & so, to indulge in grossly immoral behaviour, on the plea that “to the pure, all things are pure” - so murder, theft, adultery can be committed without sin; even, *should *be committed: to show that they are committed by people who are not tempted to do them (being at last beyond temptation), & can therefore do them in complete safety from any consequences such as contracting guilt.​

Besides, the perfect can take the imperfect’s wife, property, & life, because the imperfect will only make bad use of them, & commit sin in the process - so it is far kinder to the imperfect, because far better for him, if they are taken away from him by one who is absolutely certain to use them rightly. IOW - sinners have no rights. Only perfect men have rights. So the perfect can, should, must, break the law, since the law is for sinners only. It is therefore absurd to expect the perfect to obey it.

An example of this attitude from Edmund Gosse’s autobiography, Father and Son:

“But the prisoner’s attitude in the dock, when the facts were proved, and not by him denied, was still more extraordinary. He could be induced to exhibit no species of remorse, and, to the obvious anger of the judge himself, stated that he had only done his duty as a Christian, in preventing this wealth from coming into the hands of an ungodly man, who would have spent it in the service of the flesh and of the devil. Sternly reprimanded by the judge, he made the final statement that at that very moment he was conscious of his Lord’s presence, in the dock at his side, whispering to him ‘Well done, thou good and faithful servant!’ In this frame of conscience, and with a glowing countenance, he was hurried away to penal servitude.”

gutenberg.org/dirs/2/5/4/2540/2540.txt

1. ISTM that what is being asked, is total “openness” to God, total & unreserved self-giving in all things. How is that possible ? I think one could do it only by being God.

 

[Janet_S]

**On Perfection

by
Gregory of Nyssa** (335-395 AD)
bhsu.edu/artssciences/asfaculty/dsalomon/nyssa/perf.html

In my judgment this is the perfection of the Christian life: the name of Christ which demonstrates all his other names shares in our soul, words and life’s activities so that the holiness praised by Paul (1Ths 5.23) may be [J.213] constantly kept in the entire body, mind and spirit with no admixture of evil. If anyone says that the good is difficult to attain–for the Lord of creation is alone immutable while human nature is mutable and inclined to change–how can a mutable nature realize what is fixed and stable in the good? My response is that a person who does not lawfully strive in a contest cannot be crowned (1Tim 2.5); he would not be a legitimate athlete if an opponent were lacking. Without an opponent there is no crown, for victory against oneself is lacking if there is no weakness. Hence, let us struggle against our nature’s mutability as though against an adversary; wrestling with our reason makes us victors not by casting it down but by not consenting to the fall. Man can change not only for evil; if he had a natural inclination only to evil it would be impossible to turn to the good. Now the most beautiful effect of alteration is growth in the good since change to a more divine state is always remaking the man changing for the better. What seems fearful (I mean our mutable nature) can serve as a wing for flight to better things, since it is to our disgrace if we cannot change for the better. No one should lament his mutable nature; rather, by always being changed [J.214] to what is better and by being transformed from glory to glory (2Cor 3.18), let him so be changed. By daily growth he always becomes better and is always being perfected yet never attains perfection’s goal. Perfection consists in never stopping our growth towards the good nor in circumscribing perfection.

 

[Janet_S]

Article 2. Whether any one can be perfect in this life?
St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica)
newadvent.org/summa/3184.htm

Objection 1. It would seem that none can be perfect in this life. For the Apostle says ((1 Corinthians 13:1)0): “When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.” Now in this life that which is in part is not done away; for in this life faith and hope, which are in part, remain. Therefore none can be perfect in this life.

Objection 2. Further, “The perfect is that which lacks nothing” (Phys. iii, 6). Now there is no one in this life who lacks nothing; for it is written ((James 3:2)): “In many things we all offend”; and (Psalm 138:16): “Thy eyes did see my imperfect being.” Therefore none is perfect in this life.

Objection 3. Further, the perfection of the Christian life, as stated (1), relates to charity, which comprises the love of God and of our neighbor. Now, neither as to the love of God can one have perfect charity in this life, since according to Gregory (Hom. xiv in Ezech.) “the furnace of love which begins to burn here, will burn more fiercely when we see Him Whom we love”; nor as to the love of our neighbor, since in this life we cannot love all our neighbors actually, even though we love them habitually; and habitual love is imperfect. Therefore it seems that no one can be perfect in this life.

On the contrary, The Divine law does not prescribe the impossible. Yet it prescribes perfection according to Mt. 5:48, “Be you . . . perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.” Therefore seemingly one can be perfect in this life.

I answer that, As stated above (II-II:184:1), the perfection of the Christian life consists in charity. Now perfection implies a certain universality because according to Phys. iii, 6, “the perfect is that which lacks nothing.” Hence we may consider a threefold perfection. One is absolute, and answers to a totality not only on the part of the lover, but also on the part of the object loved, so that God be loved as much as He is lovable. Such perfection as this is not possible to any creature, but is competent to God alone, in Whom good is wholly and essentially.

Another perfection answers to an absolute totality on the part of the lover, so that the affective faculty always actually tends to God as much as it possibly can; and such perfection as this is not possible so long as we are on the way, but we shall have it in heaven.

The third perfection answers to a totality neither on the part of the object served, nor on the part of the lover as regards his always actually tending to God, but on the part of the lover as regards the removal of obstacles to the movement of love towards God, in which sense Augustine says (QQ. LXXXIII, qu. 36) that “carnal desire is the bane of charity; to have no carnal desires is the perfection of charity.” Such perfection as this can be had in this life, and in two ways. First, by the removal from man’s affections of all that is contrary to charity, such as mortal sin; and there can be no charity apart from this perfection, wherefore it is necessary for salvation. Secondly, by the removal from man’s affections not only of whatever is contrary to charity, but also of whatever hinders the mind’s affections from tending wholly to God. Charity is possible apart from this perfection, for instance in those who are beginners and in those who are proficient. (continued)

 

[Janet_S]

Article 2. Whether any one can be perfect in this life? (continued)
newadvent.org/summa/3184.htm

Reply to Objection 1. The Apostle is speaking there of heavenly perfection which is not possible to those who are on the way.

Reply to Objection 2. Those who are perfect in this life are said to “offend in many things” with regard to venial sins, which result from the weakness of the present life: and in this respect they have an “imperfect being” in comparison with the perfection of heaven.

Reply to Objection 3. As the conditions of the present life do not allow of a man always tending actually to God, so neither does it allow of his tending actually to each individual neighbor; but it suffices for him to tend to all in common and collectively, and to each individual habitually and according to the preparedness of his mind. Now in the love of our neighbor, as in the love of God we may observe a twofold perfection: one without which charity is impossible, and consisting in one’s having in one’s affections nothing that is contrary to the love of one’s neighbor; and another without which it is possible to have charity. The latter perfection may be considered in three ways. First, as to the extent of love, through a man loving not only his friends and acquaintances but also strangers and even his enemies, for as Augustine says (Enchiridion lxxiii) this is a mark of the perfect children of God. Secondly, as to the intensity of love, which is shown by the things which man despises for his neighbor’s sake, through his despising not only external goods for the sake of his neighbor, but also bodily hardships and even death, according to Jn. 15:13, “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” Thirdly, as to the effect of love, so that a man will surrender not only temporal but also spiritual goods and even himself, for his neighbor’s sake, according to the words of the Apostle ((2 Corinthians 12:15)), “But I most gladly will spend and be spent myself for your souls.”

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Janet S

Thanks for the great and most helpful passages.

 

[JimG]

I think that Jesus meant that we must become morally perfect. Certainly not ontologically perfect; only God can be ontologically perfect–i.e. perfect in Being. We must be morally perfected to enter heaven; nothing imperfect can stand in the sight of God.

We can become morally perfect by joining ourselves to the one sacrifice of Christ, partaking of his grace, especially by participation in the Eucharist, which is the one sacrifice of Christ, the source of Grace and salvation.

 

[Wonko_the_Sane]

Wonko:

Please consider what you wrote. Your first premise is this1) How does one be perfect? We don’t. … what you have to do is not be perfect (which is impossible) …And your second premise is this2) By making yourself holy, you are being perfect.Isn’t true that a person who is being perfect is in fact perfect? First you say it is impossible to be perfect (1), and then you say it is possible to be perfect (2). It seems a contradiction to assert that both (1) and (2) are true, for (2) is the opposite of (1). To be rational, you must either adopt (1) and reject (2) or adopt (2) and reject (1) or change the way you word (1) or (2) so that the two statements do not contradict each other.

For example, you could adopt Socrates’ argument against Protagoras:… although there is a difficulty in becoming good, yet this is possible for a time, and only for a time. But having become good, to remain in a good state and be good … is not possible, and is not granted to man; God only has this blessing.If you were to hold Socrates’ position that there is a difference between becoming and being (or remaining) you might then amend your premises to say something like thisA) How does one be (or remain) perfect practically? We don’t. … what you have to do is not remain perfect (which is impossible) …and (B) By allowing the Holy Spirit to make you more holy, you are becoming perfect practically, even though you likely will never reach a state of sinless perfection in this life.Do you agree that (A) and (B) are a more reasonable premises to hold than (1) and (2)?

Hehehe…
What I was trying to get at is that the common perception of being “perfect” is impossible, which is to be sin-free, constantly displaying every sign of virtue, etc etc.
I was using the premise that to be perfect in the common sense is impossible, but Jesus makes a way for it to be possible in another sense, by being holy.
By us being holy, and constantly trying to stay that way, we are being perfect.
Note that being holy and being perfect are two completely different things, yet Hebrews tells us that God views our attempts of being holy as being humanly perfect.

Do you see where I’m coming from?

 

[JaneFrances]

JaneFrances:

Sorry for calling you Janet. Stupid mistake on my part!

As there is a Janet also actively participating on this particular thread, I was unware of any mis-address. If you said something to Janet which was supposed to be directed towards me, please repeat it. Thanks!

 

[JaneFrances]

Forgiven? Yes. Not condemned? Yes. See Romans 8:1 and following. Then go back and read Romans 7. Also Philippians 4, I think (I don’t have a Bible right here) where Paul talks about pressing on, not that he had arrived.

But is it possible to be perfect on earth, as you describe? Yes, by a special grace of God. Catholics hold it dogmatically true that Mary, the Mother of the Lord, never sinned. It is possible. Probable for you or me? That is another issue.

You can also think of it this way: Jesus never commands someone to do something He does not give them the grace to do it with. He does not have us live out His life in us on our own strength. We cannot do it. If you want to be perfect, I suggest the following:

1. Ask God for the grace to ask Him for the grace you need for this.
2. Ask God for the grace to yield to HIm fully and completely, without hesitation, regardless of the cost to you personally or to anyone else.
3. Ask God for the grace to be willing to pay the price.
4. Take up your cross and follow Him.
5. Keep praying, keep obeying, keep yielding, keep living in grace. Keep on keeping on.
6. Don’t worry about whether you are perfect. Worry about whether you are pleasing Jesus. The perfection, if and when it comes, probably would sneak up on you and you wouldn’t notice, because your eyes would be on Jesus, not on you.

Be warned that God loves to trash people’s lives that He might make them saints. There are easier ways to live but only one safe way to die - in Jesus. It’s called discipleship.

Oh, well done!

While I wouldn’t ever wish to give the impression that one should ignore or gloss over any particular passage of Sacred Scripture, I still think that over-analyzing whether one can “be perfect” practically or positionally (still don’t know what that means) distracts, in some ways, from the whole message of the Gospel.

Once again the words of the dialogue between our Lord and the rich young man:

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

As my brother has so keenly suggested, once your thoughts are aloft and your will is submitted to the Will of God and you have taken up the cross to follow your Savior, you needn’t worry about perfection. At that moment, Perfection is at work in you, not by you.

The highlighted text “Then come, follow me” is not a pretty and poetic bow on top of a hard teaching. IT is the hardest by far!

Following Christ is ever so much harder than giving up possessions and wealth. Following Christ is giving up self.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I see several people were kind enough to reply with answers or questions for me. Thanks to you all!

I want to take the time to carefully read and consider each response. I’m sure i’ll have more questions when i do!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… We must consider that it is practically possible for a human being, by grace, to reject sin and submit himself wholly to the will of God, as this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, there are those nay-sayers out there who would deny this possibility. The Catholic Church, however, does not. In fact, our understanding of the Blessed Mother is a wonderful example of how God’s power is made perfect in even a humble servant. We believe as a tenet of our faith in Christ that He is mighty and powerful enough to raise even the lowliest of us to high places as we continually submit ourselves to His will. …

Jane:

The difficulty with a discussion thread like this is that it can become, like a classroom where all the students talk out of turn, confusing! With all the questions, i can go down so many rabbit trails that it might become impossible for anyone reading to follow our conversation and contribute anything of value.

So, i want to focus (for now) on just one thing that you said until i fully apprehend it and even comprehend whether it be true. That thing is your statement that, “it is practically possible for a human being, by grace, to reject sin and submit himself wholly to the will of God, as this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” What i think you are saying is that it is possible for a person on this side of eternity to become as perfect as God Himself. So, you appear to be saying that our Savior Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48, which are quoted this way:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."might actually be understood to mean this:

"Remain perfectly good (and sinless) in a practical sense in exactly the same way that the Father God is perfectly good (and sinless) in the practical sense."In other words, what i think you believe is that a person can reach a state of sinless perfection where she ceases to sin and remains as perfectly good as Jesus Himself was.

If someone were to say, “No one is perfect!” i think you might reply, “Actually, Jesus was perfect, as was his mother Mary and perhaps many saints since the first century AD. In fact, anyone to whom God gives sufficient grace will be able to reach such a state of moral goodness and sinless perfection before the death of her physical body.”

Tell me, please, is this really what you are saying? If it is, it is an astonishing idea of which i did not think possible and would very much like to learn why you believe this. If your idea proves to be true, it would certainly put Jesus’ words in a different light for me.

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

The difficulty with a discussion thread like this is that it can become, like a classroom where all the students talk out of turn, confusing! With all the questions, i can go down so many rabbit trails that it might become impossible for anyone reading to follow our conversation and contribute anything of value.

Oh, I wholly agree. My only reservation is that if we become too terribly concerned about formalities and format, a valuable contribution which would not meet such standards could be overlooked. So, I will continue this conversation with the prayer that nothing gets lost in the pomp!

What i think you are saying is that it is possible for a person on this side of eternity to become as perfect as God Himself. So, you appear to be saying that our Savior Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48, which are quoted this way:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."might actually be understood to mean this:

"Remain perfectly good (and sinless) in a practical sense in exactly the same way that the Father God is perfectly good (and sinless) in the practical sense."In other words, what i think you believe is that a person can reach a state of sinless perfection where she ceases to sin and remains as perfectly good as Jesus Himself was.

I find it interesting that you have reworded the Word twice above. This method could complicate things for me, as with each newly revised “in other words” I sift the other words and become increasingly vigilant about the accuracy of those other words.

Your first rewording begins with the word “Remain.” This is an initial sticking point for me as I do not see this word necessarily implicit in Scripture. To remain, ordinarily, requires that one continues in the same state one is already in. This is not how I understand Christ’s words to the particular audience to whom he is speaking. I would not presume that the teaching “be perfect” excludes those already in a state of perfecting grace, but to require that only those who are already in that state is not the fullest sense of Christ’s words to his disciples.

If someone were to say, “No one is perfect!” i think you might reply, “Actually, Jesus was perfect, as was his mother Mary and perhaps many saints since the first century AD. In fact, anyone to whom God gives sufficient grace will be able to reach such a state of moral goodness and sinless perfection before the death of her physical body.”

Indeed, I think you have hit upon the essence of the doctrine of grace. With God, all things are possible.

Tell me, please, is this really what you are saying? If it is, it is an astonishing idea of which i did not think possible and would very much like to learn why you believe this.

Probe away!

If your idea proves to be true, it would certainly put Jesus’ words in a different light for me.

I am actually equally astonished that someone could know Christ and not know His power to preserve, transform and protect.

 

[JaneFrances]

Yesterday’s Mass readings included a reading from the Gospel of John. In it, we heard proclaimed:

On the evening of that first day of the week,
when the doors were locked, where the disciples were,
for fear of the Jews,
Jesus came and stood in their midst
and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

Now, I haven’t done the necessary leg work to make a direct and absolute correlation, but in this passage we see again the word “be.”

So, what do we know?

First, we know that the disciples in the upper room were fearful. This fear was so strong that they found themselves anxious and locked behind closed doors, not knowing their safety as disciples of the Jesus who was crucified, died, was buried and who reportedly rose from the dead. In addition many of these men had betrayed their Lord. They ran and hid and denied Him. Surely, we can infer that their hearts were unsettled, as we imagine how they thought this unfaithfulness would affect their relationship with Jesus.

Then he appears to them. His very first words to them are: Peace be with you. We can understand this as: Be peaceful or Be at peace or peace Be to you. In any case, the imperative “be” indicates that these people are to become something. Save St. John, the Blessed Mother, and a few other women, the peace of heart which the Lord commands is most probably an immediate consequence of his uttering, not a continuance of a previous state of peace.

Thus we see how God’s word “be” can mean remain AND become, especially as it pertains to Christ’s words “Peace be with you” in the upper room.

In addition, this leads me to consider the power of God’s word. In the beginning, as He created the world, he spoke the word “be.” And brought things that were not previously created into to being.

Further, the very first commandment our Father gave to man and woman after he created them was “Be fruitful and multiply.” This word “be,” again in an imperative command such as in “Be perfect” certainly would indicate a future tense, as we know that Adam and Eve until this point would not have been procreative.

Any responses?

 

[guanophore]

I also said that I have no idea what you mean by “positionally perfect.”

Can I take a stab at that?

Positionallly perfect

We are saved by the sacrifice that Jesus made for us on the cross, where He paid our debt of sin.

Hebrews 10:14"14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.2 Cor 5:17-18

“they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith” .Rom 3:25

By faith we receive this free gift of salvation when we are baptized. We are spirtually transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We are sealed with the
Holy Spirit, and made sons and daughters of God.

“He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Col 1:13-14

We become partakers of His grace, and inherit the privileges of adopted sons and daughters. The death warrant that stood against us by reason of original sin, and personal sin, is
cancelled (Jesus paid the price).

"and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Col 2:12-15

As persons who have been born again in newness of life. We are no longer dead in our sins, but alive in Christ. In union with Him we are now to live with a clear understanding that our position has been perfected. Before God, we stand “in Christ” as a new creation.

"Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

We now have a responsibility to live according to this change of position, to express through our actions that we have died, and our lives are hiddent with Christ in God.

" If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the universe, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world?" Col 2:20

“If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Col 3:1-3

"That you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

10 to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God". Col 1:9-10

Now that we are made positionally perfect in Christ, it is our task to become perfect in practice by being made holy, and conformed to His image.

 

[JaneFrances]

Can I take a stab at that?

Positionallly perfect. . .

Thank you for your exposition of positionally perfect. I do wonder if this is Socrates’ understanding as well or if there are subtle differences that he can illuminate to benefit this discussion.

I particularly appreciate that this explanation does not exclude the possibility of being made practically perfect. With this understanding, one is not excused from cooperating with grace towards perfection, but simply recognizes the overwhelming power of the Divine Mercy as we become participants in the Divine nature (see Romans 1:20 and 2 Peter 1:4).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Oh, I wholly agree. My only reservation is that if we become too terribly concerned about formalities and format, a valuable contribution which would not meet such standards could be overlooked. So, I will continue this conversation with the prayer that nothing gets lost in the pomp!
…

I think your statement actually demonstrates why i use the Socratic method to understand first what a person says and second whether it is true. For, as you might see, what you wrote is both vague and ambiguous, which makes it easy for me to misunderstand you. Please allow me to demonstrate:

You wrote:

I will continue this conversation with the prayer that nothing gets lost in the pomp!I believe your statement is vague, because you do not say exactly what i am doing that constitutes pomp. Is it my choice of words that is pomp? or my method of asking questions? or my insistence that i cannot know what Jesus said until i know the meaning of each word that he used?

I believe your statement is ambiguous, because the word pomp has two different meanings, which give your statement a completely different meaning depending on what definition we apply. For the word pomp, my small dictionary tells me, can mean:1. A magnificent and majestic display.

or2. An ostentatious or pretentious or artificial or pompous display. Hence, i can take your statement to be one of admiration or one where you think me a pompous arse! Seeing that this is the case, i think it wise for me to ask questions to be sure i understand what you mean, don’t you? Were i to find you to mean (1) then i would ask what you admire most, my method or my use of words or my tenacity of determining the exact meaning of Christ’s words.

If i to find you to mean (2) i would have to decide whether or not to defend my character by explaining why i have adopted the language, or method, or perseverance for the truth. Then again, i could just overlook your words, giving you the benefit of the doubt and blushing over my assumption that you admire my words or intelligence or character. This, in fact, is the course i will take, unless you actually think me a pompous arse and want to prove it to everyone else, in which case i will be happy to engage the debate that my intentions and method are, i hope, good (though, i admit, not perfectly so).

Please understand that i am not, as my son says, dising you. I often write and say things that are vague or ambiguous for the sake of being concise. What i am saying is that, when the statement a person makes is important, it is best for me to ask questions to make sure i understand.

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Do you Jane see how important the meaning of words are to me? My misunderstanding one four-letter word you wrote can result in grave misrepresentation of your entire meaning. However, if you do not think me wise in insisting on the importance of knowing the definition of words, consider the words of the wise:

Words - so innocent and powerless as they are, as standing in a dictionary, how potent for good and evil they become in the hands of one who knows how to combine them.- Nathaniel Hawthorne, 1804 - 1864Dictionary: The universe in alphabetical order.- Anatole France, 1844 - 1924If you have a big enough dictionary, just about everything is a word.- Dave BarryThe greatest masterpiece in literature is only a dictionary out of order.- Jean Cocteau, 1798 - 1863When i read something too difficult for me, i keep a dictionary by my side. Sometimes i look up even words i think i understand and find that they have other definitions i never considered (such as the word pomp). You see, if i misunderstand even one word of what you write, i can completely misunderstand you. The same is true of Jesus’ words, isn’t it? If you or i misunderstand one word He says, we risk misunderstanding Him. That’s a risk i’m not willing to take. I hope you can appreciate why i’m asking what each word He spoke means when He said:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”