Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[Socrates4Jesus]

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[guanophore]

As Jane said, it is exactly the same Greek word in both chapters of Hebrews, which is the word *teleioo*. From what i have been told, Greek words take on different meanings depending on the context in which they are used, but i'm not sure if this makes it any clearer.

I am gratified to see that, in the days I have been out of town, you have conceded to look at the Greek. This is a sign that you really are interested in learning,and not just recalcitrant.

How Jesus, who was perfect, could be perfected is more a mystery to me than how a Catholic who is not perfect can be viewed as such by God.

As you study this word teleios, you will find that it can be understood as “completed”. Perfect in the sense of “finished”. Jesus came to complete a mission, and he perfected (completed) that mission through His suffering. His work is perfect (completed) at the time of His sacrifice. That completed work has been applied to us through baptism (we are saved by His grace, by virtue of His sacrifice).

You are right that this is a mystery, and that is why I have consistently expressed reservation about your method. I am not at all sure that one can enter a mystery through a socratic method. One enters the mystery through the heart, not the head.

Practically, you and i sin every day, Michael. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There are not only sins of word and deed, but sins of thought, to boot! How we can be called perfect in Hebrews 10 when we are clearly not perfect is what i am asking.

Jesus saving act (perfect) which has occured once and for all time, has been applied to us. Inasmuch as we are “in Christ” we are a new creation, the old has been put away (sinful nature) and our lives are now hidden with Christ in God.

 Practically, Jesus never sinned. In every thought, word and deed He always did what is good, righteous, loving and true. He was never guilty of even one sin of commission or omission. How the one who was and is perfect could be referred to as being perfected is even more a mystery.

Remember how Jesus said that he longed for the Spirit to be poured out? “How I am constrained until it is accomplished”. His mission was not completed (perfected) until he returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. Our participation in his mission will not be completed until we are there also!

 I don't know if i shall find the answer, but i'm not going to stop trying! :)

One has to wonder why this is so important to you…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, from God’s point of view (who knows how everyone’s life will turn out) i imagine He knows who, once saved, will remain so and who, once saved, will later walk away.

This is a subtle but important distinction in the “predestination debate”, isn’t it?

Some say God chooses the elect.

Others say God uses His foreknowledge to see who are the elect.

Sounds like you hold to the latter view.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, it is puzzling. I think the key to solving the mystery is to think that the author must mean something different when he writes(A) he has perfected

and when he writes(B) those who are sanctifiedThat is, (A) must not be the same as (B). The same must be true with other translations, such as the NIV, which states:

(a) by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever

and(b) those who are being made holyThat is, (a) cannot be the same as (b). To say (a) is equal to (b) and to also say that Jesus has done (a) but is still in the process of doing (b) is absurd.

So (A) must mean something different from (B) and (a) must mean something different than (b). Does this sound reasonable?

My objection would be the change of verb tense - “are being made holy” as opposed to "are sanctified (holy).

The former describes something that is still ongoing while the latter is something that has already occured.

Since we are in the process of being made holy throughout the course of our lifetimes, then only those who have reached the end of their lives can be said to have been sanctified (past tense).

In the course of this life, we are neither perfect nor completely sanctified.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think that if the author had written

… by one sacrifice he will in eternity make perfect forever those who are now being made holy.

this conversation would not be happening, because we would have both agreed, long before now, that it agrees with Roman Catholic theology. However, that’s not what he wrote. Instead, he wrote … by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
So, i think that “has made perfect forever” must mean something different than “are being made holy”. The question is, how are the two phrases different?

Soc-

That is just one translation - the NIV - which is not exactly known for its stellar scholarship and fidelity to the Greek.

Other translations phrase this passage differently as I have mentioned previously.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc-

That is just one translation - the NIV - which is not exactly known for its stellar scholarship and fidelity to the Greek.

Other translations phrase this passage differently as I have mentioned previously.

I understand your concern about the NIV. I have heard similar criticisms of the RSV, which is the favorite translation of the Methodists. Perhaps we can compromise and use a Roman Catholic bible? The New American Bible quotes the passage this way:

For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.
This translation states that it is “Translated from the original languages with critical use of all the ancient sources.” Furthermore, it states that it is “authorized by the board of trusties of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the Administrative Committee/Board of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference.”

Are you willing, as i am, to accept this Bible as having the most accurate translation of the passage, or do you prefer to stick with the Methodist scholars? If you agree to the compromise, we can continue the discussion using the quote from this RC Bible.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand your concern about the NIV. I have heard similar criticisms of the RSV, which is the favorite translation of the Methodists. Perhaps we can compromise and use a Roman Catholic bible? The New American Bible quotes the passage this way:

For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated. This translation states that it is “Translated from the original languages with critical use of all the ancient sources.” Furthermore, it states that it is “authorized by the board of trusties of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the Administrative Committee/Board of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference.”

Are you willing, as i am, to accept this Bible as having the most accurate translation of the passage, or do you prefer to stick with the Methodist scholars? If you agree to the compromise, we can continue the discussion using the quote from this RC Bible.

I’m off to work, but let me ask this: which do you feel is most faithful to the Greek?

 

[Randy_Carson]

From Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology, p. 748, FN 3:

Some may wish to add to this section [on sanctification] one or more passages from Hebrews that speak about our sanctification having been completed in the past. For example, the authors says that by the will of God “we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all” (Hebr. 10:10). The Greek expression is a periphrastic perfect passive participle, hegiasmenoi esmen, which speaks of a continuing present sanctification that results from a completed past action: "We are continually in a state of ‘having been sanctified’ (and we continue to feel the results of that previous act of sanctification).
But in Hebrews, the term “sanctify” (Gk. hagiazo) is related more to the Old Testament background of ceremonial purity or holiness as necessary for access to God’s presence, and therefore “sanctified” in Hebrews means “made holy and righteous in God’s sight and therefore fit to draw near to God in worship.” As such, “sanctified” in Hebrews is roughly equivalent to “justified” in Paul’s vocabulary. This sense of “sanctified” can be see in Heb. 9:13, 10:10, 13:12. These passages speak of a ceremonial kind of purification that allows access to God, and, as such, “sanctification” here applies to the beginning of Christian life. Nevertheless, the focus is more on access to God in worship, while the Pauline emphasis is on justification from the penalty of sin that was due under God’s law.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

Yes, it is puzzling. I think the key to solving the mystery is to think that the author must mean something different when he writes(A) he has perfected

and when he writes(B) those who are sanctifiedThat is, (A) must not be the same as (B). The same must be true with other translations, such as the NIV, which states:

(a) by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever

and(b) those who are being made holyThat is, (a) cannot be the same as (b). To say (a) is equal to (b) and to also say that Jesus has done (a) but is still in the process of doing (b) is absurd.

So (A) must mean something different from (B) and (a) must mean something different than (b). Does this sound reasonable?

I think you will also not be able to grasp this if you are black and white in your thinking. The writer is speaking of an event which has occurred, is occurring, and will occur later. God is not bound to time and space like we are, and if you persist in using an “either/or” approach, I don’t think it will be possible to understand it.

 

[mikeledes]

I would like to throw in another verse in this discussion:

Hebrews 7:28

** 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. **

If “perfect forever” means that “saved forever”, a some eternal security advocates argue, then what does it mean when it says Jesus was “perfected forever?” Regardless of whether you believe in eternal security or not, what does it mean when it says Jesus was “perfected forever”? How do you think that relates to the verse in Hebrews 10?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This is a subtle but important distinction in the “predestination debate”, isn’t it?

Some say God chooses the elect.

Others say God uses His foreknowledge to see who are the elect.

Sounds like you hold to the latter view.

Correct. To hold the former view is to ignore Scriptures that contradict that view. I would say this is a non-essential doctrine of the historic, Christian faith, however. I believe someone can believe God makes Him do everything and that free will is an illusion, and yet still be loved and accepted by God despite such error. I’ve found that Calvinists and others who hold to Reformed Theology often have a strong confidence in God, which i admire.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m off to work, but let me ask this: which do you feel is most faithful to the Greek?

I honestly do not know, RC. (So much to learn, so little time!) I can look up the meaning of individual Greek words and find that helpful, but Greek grammar is more of an enigma to me than the topic we are discussing.

My goal is to be reasonable, and i think it is fair to choose a sanctioned Roman Catholic Bible for the purposes of this discussion. Don’t you?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I am gratified to see that, in the days I have been out of town, you have conceded to look at the Greek. This is a sign that you really are interested in learning,and not just recalcitrant. …

Thank you, Guano. Yes, i’m not trying to be unreasonable. I think looking up the meaning of individual Greek, Latin or Hebrew words helps. My knowledge of Greek grammar is what i do not trust.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… As you study this word teleios, you will find that it can be understood as “completed”. Perfect in the sense of “finished”. Jesus came to complete a mission, and he perfected (completed) that mission through His suffering. His work is perfect (completed) at the time of His sacrifice. That completed work has been applied to us through baptism (we are saved by His grace, by virtue of His sacrifice).

You are right that this is a mystery, and that is why I have consistently expressed reservation about your method. I am not at all sure that one can enter a mystery through a socratic method. One enters the mystery through the heart, not the head.
…One has to wonder why this is so important to you.

I believe that when Greek and Hebrew writers use the word heart, they mean mind. I think you might agree, for the the organ that circulates blood through my body and yours does not have conscious thought. That we should use the minds that God gave us is evident from Scripture. For example, God says:

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”(Isaiah 1:18)and Jesus teaches that the most important commandment is to

" ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’"(Matthew 22:37)Now, i admit that there are some things about God i will never comprehend until i see Jesus face-to-face. However, there is much i can at least apprehend by understanding what Scripture says. That is, i can know what the truth is based on what the authors of the Bible write, without knowing how it can be true.

So, my goal in using the Socratic method is to love the Lord my God with all my mind by approaching him in prayer, and approaching those to whom He has given wisdom, so that we might reason together. This is why this discussion is important to me.

What you seem to be saying, Guano, is that there is a better way to know the truth than to use your mind and reason and rational thought. Can you explain what that better way is?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Remember how Jesus said that he longed for the Spirit to be poured out? “How I am constrained until it is accomplished”. His mission was not completed (perfected) until he returned to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. Our participation in his mission will not be completed until we are there also! …

Yes, Guano, this idea is extremely helpful. Thank you!

What you are saying is that the word perfect means complete, or finished in this passage

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

(Hebrews 5:7-10)
Lets try applying this meaning to Hebrews 10

Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But this one [Jesus] offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God; now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.

(Hebrews 10:11-14)
so that verse 14 should be understood to say

For by one offering he **has made complete **forever those who are being consecrated.
Tell us, Guano, in what way are you now (at this moment) complete?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

From Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology, p. 748, FN 3:

But in Hebrews, the term “sanctify” (Gk. hagiazo) is related more to the Old Testament background of ceremonial purity or holiness as necessary for access to God’s presence, and therefore “sanctified” in Hebrews means “made holy and righteous in God’s sight and therefore fit to draw near to God in worship.” As such, “sanctified” in Hebrews is roughly equivalent to “justified” in Paul’s vocabulary. Hope this helps! :tiphat:

Yes, this might help, RC. It is certainly an idea worth exploring.

Tell me, is being “holy and righteous in God’s sight” the same or different from being actually (or in a practical way) holy and righteous?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This respectful and thoughtful conversation is getting extremely interesting and appears to be getting closer to discovering the truth. Thank you very much to each of you who are taking the time to help me!

I’ll check back later to see what you all have to say.

 

[guanophore]

when Greek and Hebrew writers use the word heart, they mean mind. I think you might agree, for the the organ that circulates blood through my body and yours does not have conscious thought.

I believe that when the word “heart” is referred to it includes a center within us that is separate from reason. Yes, they work together,but it is it’s own avenue to the divine, quite apart from reason. For example, let us look at this scripture:
Ex 15:8
8 At the blast of thy nostrils the waters piled up,
the floods stood up in a heap;
the deeps congealed in the heart of the sea.

Since we know the sea does not have a “mind” of it’s own, what does the word “heart” say here?

The word heart has a much broader meaning than it does to the modern mind. The heart is that which is central to man. The word is used in the Bible refer to some aspect of human personality.

In the Bible all emotions are experienced by the heart: love and hate (Ps 105:25; 1 Peter 1:22); joy and sorrow (Eccl 2:10; John 16:6); peace and bitterness (Ezek 27:31; Col 3:15); courage and fear (Gen 42:28; Amos 2:16).

The “thinking” process that occurs in the heart is an intuitive type of thinking, rather than rational thinking. It is more of a pondering, of being present with the thought. The heart may think (Est 6:6), understand (Job 38:36), imagine (Jer 9:14), remember (Deut 4:9), be wise (Prov 2:10), and speak to itself (Deut 7:17). Decision-making is also carried out by the heart. Purpose (Acts 11:23), intention (Heb 4:12), and will (Eph 6:6) are all activities of the heart.

Geart often means someone’s true character or personality. Purity or evil (Jer 3:17; Matt 5:8), sincerity or hardness (Ex 4:21; Col 3:22); and maturity or rebelliousness (Ps 101:2; Jer 5:23) - all these describe the heart or true character of individuals. God knows the heart of each person (1 Sam 16:7). Since a person speaks and acts from his heart, he is to guard it well (Prov 4:23; Matt 15:18-19). The most important duty of man is to love God with the whole heart (Matt 22:37). With the heart man believes in Christ and so experiences both love from God and the presence of Christ in his heart (Rom 5:5; 10:9-10; Eph 3:17).

Heart includes passions, will, faith, emotion and the unconscious part of ourselves (the part that emerges in dreams and visions). I believe that the heart is the part that carries the divine stamp of His nature.

That we should use the minds that God gave us is evident from Scripture. For example, God says:

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.”(Isaiah 1:18)

I think it is great you are using your mind (reasoning ability). It is only part of the equation, though. Today we read about Peter receiving direction from the Lord in a trance. Peter was confused, because the instruction he received from the Lord defied his reason. It went against everything he had been taught and practiced all his life. The same was true for Nicodemus. Jesus instruction defied reason. Look also at Jn. 6. The people were not only confused, but scandalized. Some things can only be understood by the heart. Others we cannot understand at all, and just must accept in obedience.

and Jesus teaches that the most important commandment is to

" ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’"(Matthew 22:37)Now, i admit that there are some things about God i will never comprehend until i see Jesus face-to-face. However, there is much i can at least apprehend by understanding what Scripture says. That is, i can know what the truth is based on what the authors of the Bible write, without knowing how it can be true.

This is true, of course, but there are also truths in the scripture that can be understood best with the heart. One should try to apprehend the truths on all the levels.

So, my goal in using the Socratic method is to love the Lord my God with all my mind by approaching him in prayer, and approaching those to whom He has given wisdom, so that we might reason together. This is why this discussion is important to me.

Each person must approach God in way that best suits their constitution. Personally, I find it very frustrating, but if it works for you then I commend you.

What you seem to be saying, Guano, is that there is a better way to know the truth than to use your mind and reason and rational thought. Can you explain what that better way is?

I would not say better, just different. Both of them are important and valuable.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, Guano, this idea is extremely helpful. Thank you!

What you are saying is that the word perfect means complete, or finished in this passage

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.(Hebrews 5:7-10)Lets try applying this meaning to Hebrews 10

Every priest stands daily at his ministry, offering frequently those same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But this one [Jesus] offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God; now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.(Hebrews 10:11-14)so that verse 14 should be understood to say

For by one offering he **has made complete **forever those who are being consecrated.Tell us, Guano, in what way are you now (at this moment) complete?

Guano:

What does your heart tell you is the answer this question?

 

[guanophore]

Tell us, Guano, in what way are you now (at this moment) complete?

What does your heart tell you is the answer this question?

To my understanding, the work that Jesus did on the cross is “perfected” (completed). Through baptism, I have been joined into His death, burial, and resurrection. These are perfected (completed) works that have been accomplished in me by grace, through faith. As a result, I am “positionally perfect” to the extent that I am in Christ (in a state of grace). This means that I am seated with Him in the heavenly places. You can read more about the perfected work of salvation on a thread called “works salvation”. There are two threads, one and two because it got too long. It has many, many references to the meaning of the completed parts of the salvation process.