Practically speaking, don't we need to "test drive the car before we buy it?"

[Xantippe]

For starters:

I have more confidence.
I don’t let rejection, subtle or overt, discourage me.
I got myself a decent wing man.
I’ve got more guts to keep trying.
I’m more likely to play than to be played.
I worry less about making ‘mistakes.’
I see a finer balance between when to flirt and when to be nice.

All of this simply because I ditched a guilt-ridden, cautious approach that worried too much about what other people (along with certain entities above and below) thought.

Much like sex, I’m afraid resources bearing the Catholic label just didn’t teach me as effectively.

I only read secular dating advice when I was a lonely single. That wasn’t really helpful, either. The dating advice is just there just to sell the mascara, you know.

What was helpful was getting more life experience and financial independence, which led to increased confidence, buying some pretty clothes with my earnings, and letting my sister show me a few tricks with hot rollers and share some cute hand-me-downs with me. Plus, being willing to relocate meant that I met more people. Grad school was also good to me.

(The hot rollers will not be very helpful advice to you, I’m afraid.)

 

[awsiukiewicz]

I tend to agree w/ Flame 4…I understand what you are asking and it’;s not the first time I’ve heard words to that affect…but just think about what you are asking…a mindset that you should perhaps consider changing…spend some time in prayer…you may not realize it but what you are saying sounds selfish…I would respectfully suggest that you read Jn Paul II ‘The Theology of the Body;’…the marriage ‘act’ is a great deal more meaningful when it’s done spontaneously out of love for our spouse…when we care more about our spouse’s feelings then I believe we are really understanding what love is. it’s not about me my physical satisfaction…that comes with caring more for our mate than ourselves…Pope Jn Paul states all of this much more beautifully…please read it…you owe to you and your intended…PAX

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Eh, have a look at our advice to single guys. It’s pretty middle of the road.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=900330

I started that thread about two weeks ago.

I read it too. Good as it was, it only added to my confusion. Back then I had an unhealthy attachment to anything that fueled my cynical, self-defeatist mindset. And unfortunately, Catholicism was mixed in the fertilizer that nurtured it. It shouldn’t surprise you that my knee-jerk reaction to this blog was to basically question how much of this wasn’t ‘infested’ with hyper-sex liberal thinking.

You don’t need to buy Catholic Cheerios and Catholic butter and Catholic eggs and Catholic printer paper. Some advice is good no matter what label is on it.

My point is that the contrary (and ultimately disastrous) advice bore the Catholic label more often than the advice that I should’ve listened to.

And even now, as I browse this thread on sex knowledge, I gain more reason to doubt than to believe. (Ratio’s roughly 90% vs 10% if you want specifics.)

(The hot rollers will not be very helpful advice to you, I’m afraid.)

The fact that you say this already shows you acknowledge that what you say here doesn’t apply to everyone else. So what if the resources worked out for me better than you did? I’m not exactly asking you to ditch what I just ditched.

 

[Rau]

For starters:

I have more confidence.
I don’t let rejection, subtle or overt, discourage me.
I got myself a decent wing man.
I’ve got more guts to keep trying.
I’m more likely to play than to be played.
I worry less about making ‘mistakes.’
I see a finer balance between when to flirt and when to be nice.

All of this simply because I ditched a guilt-ridden, cautious approach that worried too much about what other people (along with certain entities above and below) thought.

Much like sex, I’m afraid resources bearing the Catholic label just didn’t teach me as effectively.

I’m not conscious of a “guilt ridden cautious approach” to friendship, socialising, dating etc. having any connection with being Catholic. Anyway, good luck!

 

[underacloud]

I especially like the unmarried people telling married people about successful marriages and sexual compatibility.

Pretty much sums it up.

This thread seems to be a few unhappy single people telling happily married people that we’ve got it all wrong. Very strange.

Anyway, in addition to all the excellent advice offered already, I have a thought to offer: the car you eventually buy will not be jealous of all the other cars you test drove before settling on that car. People, on the other hand, do experience jealousy. Ignore this reality at your own risk.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m not conscious of a “guilt ridden cautious approach” to friendship, socialising, dating etc. having any connection with being Catholic. Anyway, good luck!

You’ll find it in the overshadowing condemnation of secular dating guides that don’t bear the Catholic-Family-Friendly-Imprimatur.

This thread seems to be a few unhappy single people telling happily married people that we’ve got it all wrong. Very strange.

You know what’s stranger? Why these so-called ‘happily married people’ aren’t flying around helping the ‘unhappy single people?’

Oh but then again, it’s so much easier to condemn us single young’uns for consulting hyper-sexual sources. That’s the internet for ya!

 

[the_phoenix]

For starters:

I have more confidence.
I don’t let rejection, subtle or overt, discourage me.
I got myself a decent wing man.
I’ve got more guts to keep trying.
I’m more likely to play than to be played.
I worry less about making ‘mistakes.’
I see a finer balance between when to flirt and when to be nice.

All of this simply because I ditched a guilt-ridden, cautious approach that worried too much about what other people (along with certain entities above and below) thought.

Much like sex, I’m afraid resources bearing the Catholic label just didn’t teach me as effectively.

Confidence is a good thing.
Not being discouraged by rejection is a good thing.
Decent wing man? Why not?
Guts to keep trying … good for you.
Am not into the whole “play or be played” thing myself, I don’t go in much for what I see as “society’s games.”
Worrying less about making mistakes … a good thing.
Knowing when to flirt and when to be nice … an art form, cool.

So by and large, why do you think you need to be less Catholic?
Maybe you were a bit scrupulous before?

As for my own situation, I’m a middle-aged single woman … and since I’ve been getting out and about more in social situations recently, I’m finding I can still attract the guys. I do put God first, in any case, and if because of that it’s my destiny to remain a solitary artist, then so be it and I won’t regret it.

…

 

[PaulinVA]

Y
You know what’s stranger? Why these so-called ‘happily married people’ aren’t flying around helping the ‘unhappy single people?’

Oh but then again, it’s so much easier to condemn us single young’uns for consulting hyper-sexual sources. That’s the internet for ya!

What do you want? Everyone is not a matchmaker. I think you guys are just too frustrated to listen to good advice.

The most attractive person of either sex is one who has their own life, is living it, is confident, and isn’t desperate. There. That’s my help.

 

[underacloud]

YYou know what’s stranger? Why these so-called ‘happily married people’ aren’t flying around helping the ‘unhappy single people?’

What is it you think we’re meant to do, in terms of “flying around helping”?

You don’t seem to want our advice. I’m not sure what else you think ought to be done?

Oh but then again, it’s so much easier to condemn us single young’uns for consulting hyper-sexual sources. That’s the internet for ya!

No condemnation. Just lots of happily married people looking to share advice with those who wish to join the ranks of the happily married. People wanting to share how the teachings of Catholicism work in real life and are the best basis, in our opinions, for a truly happy marriage.

People have even started threads to offer advice to single guys, advice that isn’t merely religious principles, but founded in real life experience. No condemnation; pleny of attempts to help.

 

[Rau]

You’ll find it in the overshadowing condemnation of secular dating guides that don’t bear the Catholic-Family-Friendly-Imprimatur.

Oh. Not sure I’ve come across those dating guides myself, nor the “overshadowing condemnation” of them!

You do read some crazy stuff though. I recall one poster on CAF who determined that it was simply mandatory for him to be openly pro-abortion if he expected to ever have a date with a woman. He preferred to believe this, rather than reassess his perceptions, and the environment in which he chooses to live and work. For the sake of maintaining this belief, he indeed professes to be pro-anortion. Go figure!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

So by and large, why do you think you need to be less Catholic?
Maybe you were a bit scrupulous before?

Perhaps. But like alcoholism, I was drunk on self-loathing and Catholicism was but brandy mixed among the rums, the whiskys, and other depressing spirits. That’s why I don’t drink from that well anymore. It’s poisoned for someone like me.

What do you want? Everyone is not a matchmaker. I think you guys are just too frustrated to listen to good advice.

The most attractive person of either sex is one who has their own life, is living it, is confident, and isn’t desperate. There. That’s my help.

Well whaddya know? That’s exactly what I’m doing! I have a life. I’m living it. But it just so happens, I had to shut off all sources of guilt and hesitation. Sorry religion, you just can’t do that for me. It’s the back o’ the bus for you!

It goes to show that I’m not so much frustrated as I am just hammering the fact that your ‘good advice’ isn’t always good. Ever noticed that ‘living a life’ is more often attributed to the New Age, feel-good self-help industry and not religion?

You don’t seem to want our advice. I’m not sure what else you think ought to be done?

You’re right. I don’t. But hey, since you all think you know better than a guy simply trying to figure it out on his own without guilt, worry, and all that fear, then I suggest you do it for him.

See, this is why I’d rather consult than be the consultant. So many resources out there, all contradicting and comparing. Alas, I was guilt-tripped into sticking to just the Catholic section of it all instead of the daring that could’ve gotten me what I wanted. While I can respect Theology of the Body, it didn’t exactly inspire me to take the actions I should have.

You do read some crazy stuff though. I recall one poster on CAF who determined that it was simply mandatory for him to be openly pro-abortion if he expected to ever have a date with a woman. He preferred to believe this, rather than reassess his perceptions, and the environment in which he chooses to live and work. For the sake of maintaining this belief, he indeed professes to be pro-anortion. Go figure!

That’s the game for you. It’s easy to give advice on it without actively diving into the situation of the person you’re trying to help. I see this is an issue for both religious and non-religious ‘experts’ on topics like sex, dating, and relationships. Hence, I take it all with a grain of salt but I open myself just as much.

Rather odd though that the religious party often guilt-tripped me more for not taking their take. Secular folks have no notion of guilt to begin with so I can’t see how they’ve ever done that with me.

 

[underacloud]

You’re right. I don’t. But hey, since you all think you know better than a guy simply trying to figure it out on his own without guilt, worry, and all that fear, then I suggest you do it for him.

You want me to “do it for him”?

You’ve lost me. Do what exactly? Live his life for him? Can’t be done. All I can do is offer advice; advice from a very happily married Catholic man. He can either take the advice on board or disregard it.

 

[thewanderer]

No amount of pain is comparable to the pain I already had to go through when it came to being honest with myself. Like the topic of premarital sex, there’s too much of a counter-cultural attitude permeating this religion that it’s the advice that’s usually jumping to an extreme, not the people trying to sort this game out.

My demotion of my faith is a personal decision. Things worked out for you but that’s your life. Not mine. The day I start giving stock to dating advice bearing the Catholic label is the day it magically solves my remaining problems.

Personally, I’m quite skeptical of a lot of dating advice that goes around under the “Catholic” or “Christian” label as well and outright disagree with a lot of it, especially a lot of the concepts behind the “courtship” movement. But I also disagree just as strongly with the “players handbook” and a lot secular sources out there as well. Gain life experience, learn how to interact with others, work on gaining self-confidence, and then just be yourself. As I said, you are swinging from one extreme to another when where you really should be is comfortably in the middle.

Hmmff… right, like that never made it to the player’s handbook.

lol, so its now one of the manipulative plays to just be sincere? You do realize how contradictory that is, right? If you’re being sincere and open and honest and just being yourself you are doing the opposite of trying to find tricks to manipulate another person into liking you. Now, if they were just pretending to be sincere to try and get women to like them without really being so, then yes, that is absolutely one of the players tricks, one of the oldest in the book I would imagine, but actually just plain being sincere and honest about who you are? Sorry, but that is not a “play” used by players to manipulate women into liking them, its just the necessary base for any solid relationship. Which is one of the main reasons I think the players handbook should be thrown out the window. The whole point is to distort the image of yourself others see so that they do not see the real you, but rather the twisted version of yourself you’ve made up for them to see. That is a horrible basis for a relationship.

 

[Xantippe]

Rather odd though that the religious party often guilt-tripped me more for not taking their take. Secular folks have no notion of guilt to begin with so I can’t see how they’ve ever done that with me.

Secular folks have no notion of guilt…Huh. I suspect you don’t know a lot about secular folks.

At least in the US, there are piles of secular guilt available.

Are you having too many kids?
Do you support the public school system?
Do you support your child’s school, but also support other children’s schools just as much?
Are you using plastic bags, not reusables?
Are you using disposable diapers?
Is your car too big?
Do you take too many trips?
Is your house too big?
Is your home comfortably cool in summer and warm in winter? Tssk, tssk.
Do you buy organic?
Do you buy fair trade coffee?
Do you use too much water?
Do you care enough about racism?
Are you homophobic?
Are you transphobic?
Do you care enough about Tibet?
Do you care enough about Palestinians?
Do you care enough about sweatshop labor?
Do you care enough about sexism?
Do you value women for qualities other than appearance?
Do you obtain enthusiastic consent?
Are you sure?
Are you classist?
Have you checked your privilege?
Are you ageist?
Are you ableist?
Are you lookist?

It’s quite exhausting if you go all the way–I’m not sure how people handle it.

Some of those things are fine and worth thinking about, but as an overall worldview, replacing religion, it’s a sort of hamster wheel of anxiety–nothing you do is ever going to be good enough.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Gain life experience, learn how to interact with others, work on gaining self-confidence, and then just be yourself. As I said, you are swinging from one extreme to another when where you really should be is comfortably in the middle.

You talk of contradiction but you tell me to do the very things I managed to do because I ‘jumped from one extreme to another.’

Sometimes being myself goes against a heap of what I used to believe in, including my religion. Do you really think this is an attitude that takes prisoners?

ol, so its now one of the manipulative plays to just be sincere?

Apparently you must’ve stopped reading those sources because that’s among the latest updates.

You do realize how contradictory that is, right?

So is the game (and in even more ways than one).

If you’re being sincere and open and honest and just being yourself you are doing the opposite of trying to find tricks to manipulate another person into liking you.

Right. And being manipulative, cunning, and complicated isn’t an inherent personality trait. You must know me sooo well.

Sorry, but that is not a “play” used by players to manipulate women into liking them. Its just one of the most important aspects of any solid relationship.

And you think they don’t apply that? I mean, not even in the slightest bit? Last time I checked, master Casanovas don’t consider posing as neither an admirable nor effective long-term strategy.

Then again, being a master of anything usually means doing whatever it takes. Realizing that, I have a hard time believing the collective knowledge of scoring girls won’t include this.

 

[underacloud]

I have a hard time believing the collective knowledge of scoring girls won’t include this.

You are talking about something entirely different from the rest of us. I now understand why you don’t find Catholic advice very helpful. Catholic advice here relates to finding a suitable spouse and establishing a successful marriage. Scoring girls is a different matter entirely - if that’s your aim, then sure, secular sources will be more useful to you.

 

[Rau]

…Rather odd though that the religious party often guilt-tripped me more for not taking their take. Secular folks have no notion of guilt to begin with so I can’t see how they’ve ever done that with me.

You’re quite wrong about “secular” folks. While their ethics and morality may not derive from a religious framework, they may hold quite firm beliefs about personal behaviour, justice, respect and concern for others. They may be just as able to feel guilt for times when they have transgressed their own model of right and wrong.

Guilt is not something “done to you”, though children could perhaps be manipulated in that way.

 

[Rau]

You talk of contradiction but you tell me to do the very things I managed to do because I ‘jumped from one extreme to another.’

Which, I think, only goes to suggest that “jumping” may have not been necessary in the first place. It may be that where you were was not at all extreme, but casting it as such provided you with an explanation for unsatisfactory outcomes. Of course, I readily agree that only you can judge these things.

 

[thewanderer]

You talk of contradiction but you tell me to do the very things I managed to do because I ‘jumped from one extreme to another.’

When you go from one extreme to another it is quite typical to fix the mistakes of the extreme you were in, however, by going to the extreme rather than the mean you end up making new mistakes, those of the new extreme as well. so the fact that by leaving one extreme you were able to fix the problems of that extreme is hardly surprising.

Sometimes being myself goes against a heap of what I used to believe in, including my religion. Do you really think this is an attitude that takes prisoners?

Again, please give evidence that the Catholic faith teaches you should be un-assertive and boring before you claim that your new found assertiveness goes against your catholic faith. You were misled by one extreme position that is not at all a part of Catholic teaching, but because it was promoted by Catholics you are now throwing out actual Catholic teaching with regard to relationships. Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I’m going to be honest, I don’t understand what you are trying to get at when you ask if this is an attitude that takes prisoners. Could you clarify?

Apparently you must’ve stopped reading those sources because that’s among the latest updates.

So is the game (and in even more ways than one).

“the game” has no place in looking for a spouse. Period. If you’re just looking for sex and hook-ups, then sure, playing “the game” will probably get you those, but if you’re actually interested in a stable loving relationship? it has no place whatsoever.

Right. And being manipulative, cunning, and complicated isn’t an inherent personality trait. You must know me sooo well.

And you think they don’t apply that? I mean, not even in the slightest bit? Last time I checked, master Casanovas don’t consider posing as neither an admirable nor effective long-term strategy.

Then again, being a master of anything usually means doing whatever it takes. Realizing that, I have a hard time believing the collective knowledge of scoring girls won’t include this.

?? Again, I’m unclear on your point. What I know is that “master casanovas” the men who just try to romance women and stroke their ego by being good in bed do not make good marriage material. If you are looking for a spouse my sincere advice is for you to drop the game now, it won’t get you what you’re looking for. It just won’t

 

[Peter_Plato]

You talk of contradiction but you tell me to do the very things I managed to do because I ‘jumped from one extreme to another.’

Sure, overcoming childhood fears facing adolescent exuberance is a “jump from one extreme to another,” but all you have shown is that you used what you thought to be a “Catholic perspective” to abate your fears about allowing your adolecent exuberance to have full rein. Now that you have marshaled sufficient courage to be adolescent you look back on your childhood fears as if it was that restricting old Catholicism that was the restraining element in your life.

Sure, it makes rationalizing away your own former personal weaknesses or shortcomings much more tolerable and justifies abdicating Catholicism by rendering it as “childish” and “fearful” in comparison to your newfound brashness but neither move is very convincing to anyone but yourself.

Of course, there is danger in pointing this out because it may only serve to harden your determination to prove this thesis wrong, but I will assume you have, at least, the maturity and self-awareness to put this possibility on the “back burner” and revisit it after “sowing your wild oats.” It is not as if you were the first Catholic (or human being, even) to have gone through this “jump,” even though it may give you a heightened personal sense of accomplishment to believe in your exceptional boldness and fearlessness.

Check back in ten or twenty years and we’ll talk again.