Practicing Catholic

[chefmomster2]

It is indeed the case that Heaven is like a church… or rather, churches and the Mass are like Heaven. This article has a table which shows the relationships between the Mass and the description of Heaven in Revelation.

I get the message that this link is invalid. Could you please check it? I’d love to see it!

 

[St_Francis]

I get the message that this link is invalid. Could you please check it? I’d love to see it!

Oops, bad cut&paste This should work:

This article has a table which shows the relationships between the Mass and the description of Heaven in Revelation.

 

[Xantippe]

Oops, bad cut&paste This should work:

This article has a table which shows the relationships between the Mass and the description of Heaven in Revelation.

Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper” is a full-length book devoted to the relationship between the Mass and heaven in the Bible.

 

[St_Francis]

Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper” is a full-length book devoted to the relationship between the Mass and heaven in the Bible.

That’s a good recommendation

 

[Sy_Noe]

As phrased, that would certainly be a Church I wouldn’t want to be a part of! Fortunately, the Catholic Church isn’t quite the way you describe. The Church has always held that a person’s knowledge and consent matter greatly. This includes youngsters, teens who have not yet matured, those with difficult emotional problems, and scores of others who are each judged in a personal way taking into account all of the impediments that may truly release them, at least in part, from full culpability for their sins. God isn’t trying to keep us out of heaven! He wants every single one of us to be there with Him.

No one, not even the pope, could tell you definitively that your person who was tired committed a mortal sin or not. We aren’t able to judge that. But, a good person like the one you describe would seemingly care about missing Mass and most especially about the “possibility” that it might have been a mortal sin. Certainly he would want a chance to make things right. Don’t you frequently hurry to make up with loved ones, even if you’re unsure if you did anything wrong? What if the quarrel could mean that you would never be with them again? If you truly love them, reconciliation isn’t a hoop to jump through! It’s a way back into love you could have lost.

Sin is real and so is the possibility of Hell, but if and when anyone ends up there, it will be because they chose it. It won’t be on a “technical”, but on a case of true and complete rejection of God. And it won’t come as any surprise!

For the rest of us who struggle through, make mistakes, reconcile, try again, and again, and again, we will find ourselves rewarded. IMO, this will be the way for vast numbers of us. God does miracles, He doesn’t expect them. He will do anything you let Him to get you into heaven.

Are you saying the Catholic who takes a break by sleeping in sometimes, so doesn’t attend every week, knowing the Catholic Church calls such an act a grave matter and the person nevertheless deliberately does this because similar to our Protestant brothers and sisters, doesn’t believe missing is a mortal sin… and they never confess doing so… is not judged to be in a state of mortal sin? And such a person is practicing and is not deemed unworthy to approach and receive Jesus?

Or a couple of other scenarios to ponder… What if a person doesn’t see everything as black and white as the Catholic Church does but can see some gray in cases of a young girl so brutally raped or her own life in danger and how hers and the lives of others could be affected if she is forced under law to carry to term? Or a mother whose other children’s lives and the lives of other family members could be severely affected if she is allowed no legal choice whatsoever and she loses her life or her health is affected? So as terribly tragic as abortion is, they nevertheless see not every case in black and white and support some legal choice in secular law. Not an all out ban of any choice in all cases. Or if a person believes SS couples should have a right under civil law to go down to the courthouse for a civil union or a civil marriage license and be allowed to have a justice of the peace or Protestant clergy who is willing to do so, to perform a ceremony. And this person differentiates such an act from Catholic sacramental marriage. Are they’re practicing and can receive the Eucharist?

Or what if a person believes so many do’s and dont’s spelled out have somewhat of a legalistic feel about them and believes could be a straying from Christ’s intent of a lighter burden and yoke? Is it fine for them to choose to eat a slice of bologna on a Lenten Friday?

Please please don’t take me wrong. I don’t think a great many faithful Catholics or the Catholic Church would describe these things as fine for a Catholic to believe and still remain practicing or in a proper state or in good standing. Hence my earlier phrasing. But we could go on in circles which is not my intent. So thank you for the cordial and charitable discussion. I pray on my part as well. And blessings to all!

 

[Sy_Noe]

I come here for many reasons, St. Francis. Learning is one of them. Others are to point out when others are passing off subjective theology as fact; to try to bring some compassion to an awfully legalistic and often hard-hearted board; and to try to convince lurkers/readers that all Catholics are not sin- and hell-obsessed

PolarGuy, I’m not always the best at articulating what I mean. But before I depart the thread I just wanted to say I appreciate your compassion and attempt to show the above. So thank you.

 

[chefmomster2]

Are you saying the Catholic who takes a break by sleeping in sometimes, so doesn’t attend every week, knowing the Catholic Church calls such an act a grave matter and the person nevertheless deliberately does this because similar to our Protestant brothers and sisters, doesn’t believe missing is a mortal sin… and they never confess doing so… is not judged to be in a state of mortal sin? And such a person is practicing and is not deemed unworthy to approach and receive Jesus?

Or a couple of other scenarios to ponder… What if a person doesn’t see everything as black and white as the Catholic Church does but can see some gray in cases of a young girl so brutally raped or her own life in danger and how hers and the lives of others could be affected if she is forced under law to carry to term? Or a mother whose other children’s lives and the lives of other family members could be severely affected if she is allowed no legal choice whatsoever and she loses her life or her health is affected? So as terribly tragic as abortion is, they nevertheless see not every case in black and white and support some legal choice in secular law. Not an all out ban of any choice in all cases. Or if a person believes SS couples should have a right under civil law to go down to the courthouse for a civil union or a civil marriage license and be allowed to have a justice of the peace or Protestant clergy who is willing to do so, to perform a ceremony. And this person differentiates such an act from Catholic sacramental marriage. Are they’re practicing and can receive the Eucharist?

Or what if a person believes so many do’s and dont’s spelled out have somewhat of a legalistic feel about them and believes could be a straying from Christ’s intent of a lighter burden and yoke? Is it fine for them to choose to eat a slice of bologna on a Lenten Friday?

Please please don’t take me wrong. I don’t think a great many faithful Catholics or the Catholic Church would describe these things as fine for a Catholic to believe and still remain practicing or in a proper state or in good standing. Hence my earlier phrasing. But we could go on in circles which is not my intent. So thank you for the cordial and charitable discussion. I pray on my part as well. And blessings to all!

No, the things you describe are grievously sinful. I disagreed with your tone rather than your facts.

In the previous post, you descibed a person who “must go through life” being out of communion with the Church because they would not receive reconciliation. What I suggested is that the sacrament should not be looked upon as a hoop to jump through but rather as a way back into the Church. It isn’t punitive, it’s a loving gift!

God knows that we will do the things you describe above. We will do them even knowing the consequences we are warned about. The Church is not creating the rules. She teaches the “rules” that she believes are according to the will of God. Shouldn’t she?

It is the Church’s job to teach us the way to heaven. Mortal sin is an uncomfortable and even frightening truth, but it is a truth from God. Having a Church to guide us in knowledge is essential. This isn’t a death sentence, but a gift. This awareness can help us to avoid sin and get to heaven despite ourselves! This is a gift of God’s mercy and love.

Thank you for your contributions to the thread! Blessings!

 

[Xantippe]

Are you saying the Catholic who takes a break by sleeping in sometimes, so doesn’t attend every week, knowing the Catholic Church calls such an act a grave matter and the person nevertheless deliberately does this because similar to our Protestant brothers and sisters, doesn’t believe missing is a mortal sin… and they never confess doing so… is not judged to be in a state of mortal sin? And such a person is practicing and is not deemed unworthy to approach and receive Jesus?

Or a couple of other scenarios to ponder… What if a person doesn’t see everything as black and white as the Catholic Church does but can see some gray in cases of a young girl so brutally raped or her own life in danger and how hers and the lives of others could be affected if she is forced under law to carry to term? Or a mother whose other children’s lives and the lives of other family members could be severely affected if she is allowed no legal choice whatsoever and she loses her life or her health is affected? So as terribly tragic as abortion is, they nevertheless see not every case in black and white and support some legal choice in secular law. Not an all out ban of any choice in all cases. Or if a person believes SS couples should have a right under civil law to go down to the courthouse for a civil union or a civil marriage license and be allowed to have a justice of the peace or Protestant clergy who is willing to do so, to perform a ceremony. And this person differentiates such an act from Catholic sacramental marriage. Are they’re practicing and can receive the Eucharist?

Or what if a person believes so many do’s and dont’s spelled out have somewhat of a legalistic feel about them and believes could be a straying from Christ’s intent of a lighter burden and yoke? Is it fine for them to choose to eat a slice of bologna on a Lenten Friday?

Please please don’t take me wrong. I don’t think a great many faithful Catholics or the Catholic Church would describe these things as fine for a Catholic to believe and still remain practicing or in a proper state or in good standing. Hence my earlier phrasing. But we could go on in circles which is not my intent. So thank you for the cordial and charitable discussion. I pray on my part as well. And blessings to all!

I believe that Catholics are allowed not to oppose a life-of-the-mother exception for abortion. (I was told that by an orthodox Catholic ethicist some years ago.) There’s some fine print on this, but the rationale is that if somebody’s life is in actual danger (or their patient’s life is in danger), what legal penalty are you going to threaten with that is going to make a difference to them?

It’s also certainly possible that some civil union be moral to offer to gay couples–if the same civil union is available to non-sexual couples: a pair of sisters raising kids together, a mother and daughter raising kids together (happens a lot), an asexual couple, an elderly couple not interested in all that, etc.

Go to theology on tap or some other place where smart Catholics gather–talk to bright, well-informed Catholics. It seems like you’ve been talking to some not very bright ones.

Bear in mind, that all the details and the “legalism” you hate are simply the effect of thinking things through over two thousand years. We aren’t creating the wheel from nothing around here–a lot of thought has been devoted to various moral issues. And a lot of it is there to protect people. (Take, for instance, the “legalism” that if you commit murder to marry somebody, the marriage that you killed for is not valid. Or if you kidnap somebody to marry them under duress, the marriage is invalid. There’s a lot of good, prudent stuff like that in traditional Catholic practice.)

If you are actually interested in the intellectual side (rather than just pointlessly quibbling for quibbling’s sake), I can point you to some orthodox Catholic professors who might be very happy to share some reading suggestions with you. If you email 10, you’ll definitely get at least one answer back with book suggestions to get you started.

Best wishes!

 

[MacQ]

I dunno but just a thought. Maybe just don’t be so intent on describing other Catholics?

As Xantippe pointed out, the original question asked for a description.

The idea of “practicing catholic” mostly comes up when people are choosing Godparents and Sponsors, and they are urged to choose someone who is actively practicing their faith.
Someone who’s “tired of going to Mass” probably wouldn’t be the best person to choose for those duties.

 

[agnes_therese]

Here’s the thing about the Sunday obligation. The buses do not run on Sunday so there is still no way from me to get to Sunday Mass I usually go on Fri at least. Maybe even Tue. and or Thur. but it’s very early in the morning. So transportation on Sun is still unavailable to me.

Bill

What about Saturday evening Mass? What about a friend, neighbor, or relative taking you? Or someone from the parish?

And what’s going to change at Thanksgiving that you plan on going back to Mass then?

 

[Xantippe]

As Xantippe pointed out, the original question asked for a description.

The idea of “practicing catholic” mostly comes up when people are choosing Godparents and Sponsors, and they are urged to choose someone who is actively practicing their faith.
Someone who’s “tired of going to Mass” probably wouldn’t be the best person to choose for those duties.

Yes.

The Knights of Columbus also talk about “practical Catholics”–that’s one of their requirements for new members. You can see the list here:

"What is a practical Catholic?

“A practical Catholic accepts the teaching authority of the Catholic Church on matters of faith and morals, aspires to live in accord with the precepts of the Catholic Church, and is in good standing in the Catholic Church.”

kofc.org/un/en/membership/join/prospective.html

Notice the word “aspires” in the definition. That suggests that the practical Catholic is assumed to be a work in progress, as opposed to a saint all ready for canonization (aside from the dying part).

 

[St_Francis]

Are you saying the Catholic who takes a break by sleeping in sometimes, so doesn’t attend every week, knowing the Catholic Church calls such an act a grave matter and the person nevertheless deliberately does this because similar to our Protestant brothers and sisters, doesn’t believe missing is a mortal sin… and they never confess doing so… is not judged to be in a state of mortal sin? And such a person is practicing and is not deemed unworthy to approach and receive Jesus?

Or a couple of other scenarios to ponder… What if a person doesn’t see everything as black and white as the Catholic Church does but can see some gray in cases of a young girl so brutally raped or her own life in danger and how hers and the lives of others could be affected if she is forced under law to carry to term? Or a mother whose other children’s lives and the lives of other family members could be severely affected if she is allowed no legal choice whatsoever and she loses her life or her health is affected? So as terribly tragic as abortion is, they nevertheless see not every case in black and white and support some legal choice in secular law. Not an all out ban of any choice in all cases. Or if a person believes SS couples should have a right under civil law to go down to the courthouse for a civil union or a civil marriage license and be allowed to have a justice of the peace or Protestant clergy who is willing to do so, to perform a ceremony. And this person differentiates such an act from Catholic sacramental marriage. Are they’re practicing and can receive the Eucharist?

Or what if a person believes so many do’s and dont’s spelled out have somewhat of a legalistic feel about them and believes could be a straying from Christ’s intent of a lighter burden and yoke? Is it fine for them to choose to eat a slice of bologna on a Lenten Friday?

Please please don’t take me wrong. I don’t think a great many faithful Catholics or the Catholic Church would describe these things as fine for a Catholic to believe and still remain practicing or in a proper state or in good standing. Hence my earlier phrasing. But we could go on in circles which is not my intent. So thank you for the cordial and charitable discussion. I pray on my part as well. And blessings to all!

This is what I do mot understand: what’s the issue? Why is it so difficult to accept that if you do something that offends God it would be a good idea to apologize before taking something from Him?

Imagine a guy you know telling you he’s bummed out because his wife is upset that he blew off taking her out to dinner so he could play video games when they had a date. He says, I’m basically a good husband, but she’s making me sleep on the couch. I can’t believe she’s making me sleep on the couch until I apologize! How unreasonable is that!

Seriously, there seems to he an element of, I can’t believe God would want us to apologize to Him for ignoring Him before letting us receive the Eucharist!

Why does this *bother *you?

 

[St_Francis]

Are you saying the Catholic who takes a break by sleeping in sometimes, so doesn’t attend every week, knowing the Catholic Church calls such an act a grave matter and the person nevertheless deliberately does this because similar to our Protestant brothers and sisters, doesn’t believe missing is a mortal sin… and they never confess doing so… is not judged to be in a state of mortal sin? And such a person is practicing and is not deemed unworthy to approach and receive Jesus?

Or a couple of other scenarios to ponder… What if a person doesn’t see everything as black and white as the Catholic Church does but can see some gray in cases of a young girl so brutally raped or her own life in danger and how hers and the lives of others could be affected if she is forced under law to carry to term? Or a mother whose other children’s lives and the lives of other family members could be severely affected if she is allowed no legal choice whatsoever and she loses her life or her health is affected? So as terribly tragic as abortion is, they nevertheless see not every case in black and white and support some legal choice in secular law.

Every so often a news story is about a woman who didn’t know she was pregnant giving birth. Suppose a woman was raped and didn’t know she was pregnant and gave birth. Suppose the presence if the child would severely affect her life or that of her relatives. Would that justify taking the life of the baby? Would it be ok to kill the baby?

So why would anyone think it would be ok to kill the baby before it was born? It just isn’t right to kill, to take the life of the child simply because he or she has not yet been born.

I donmt want to argue this point *here, *just point out that you seem to be fudging the truth in this area.

Not an all out ban of any choice in all cases. Or if a person believes SS couples should have a right under civil law to go down to the courthouse for a civil union or a civil marriage license and be allowed to have a justice of the peace or Protestant clergy who is willing to do so, to perform a ceremony. And this person differentiates such an act from Catholic sacramental marriage. Are they’re practicing and can receive the Eucharist?

Or what if a person believes so many do’s and dont’s spelled out have somewhat of a legalistic feel about them and believes could be a straying from Christ’s intent of a lighter burden and yoke? Is it fine for them to choose to eat a slice of bologna on a Lenten Friday?

Please please don’t take me wrong. I don’t think a great many faithful Catholics or the Catholic Church would describe these things as fine for a Catholic to believe and still remain practicing or in a proper state or in good standing. Hence my earlier phrasing. But we could go on in circles which is not my intent. So thank you for the cordial and charitable discussion. I pray on my part as well. And blessings to all!

 

[Xantippe]

This is what I do mot understand: what’s the issue? Why is it so difficult to accept that if you do something that offends God it would be a good idea to apologize before taking something from Him?

Imagine a guy you know telling you he’s bummed out because his wife is upset that he blew off taking her out to dinner so he could play video games when they had a date. He says, I’m basically a good husband, but she’s making me sleep on the couch. I can’t believe she’s making me sleep on the couch until I apologize! How unreasonable is that!

Seriously, there seems to he an element of, I can’t believe God would want us to apologize to Him for ignoring Him before letting us receive the Eucharist!

Why does this *bother *you?

Yes.

 

[billcu1]

Link to document

Quotes from Msgr Pope’s article: Many claim that although scripture mandates a day of rest, there is no requirement to attend Church. But this is really not the case. Scripture links the Sabbath to “sacred assembly.” For example, six days shall work be done; but **the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest and sacred assembly; **you shall do no work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD. (Lev 23:3). Thus, notice how this text spells out that the Sabbath is not only for rest but for “sacred assembly.” This phrase, “sacred assembly” is what is meant by the word “Church.” Church means “assembly.”

Likewise, **Jesus in his observance of Sabbath attended the synagogue **(another word for “assembly” or “gathering”). Scripture says Jesus attended the synagogue on the Sabbath habitually (cf Lk 4:16).

Further, scripture admonishes us **to not neglect to meet together, **as is the habit of some, but encourage one another (Heb 10:25).

For some to say that they don’t need to assemble, to meet together with fellow Christians in Church on Sunday, (our Sabbath) is surely unbiblical. The Old Testament commanded it, Jesus attended, who are we to fail in this regard? We must not neglect to meet together. We must not neglect to receive Holy Communion and be instructed in the Word of God…

…A further indication that Sunday Church worship is required of the Christian is in **Jesus’ mandate that we receive Holy Communion. **Jesus warns us not to miss receiving the Holy Communion with these words: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you. (John 6:53)

Without the Holy Eucharist which is the Body and Blood of Jesus, we are starving ourselves spiritually. If you and I were to stop eating our worldly food we would soon grow weak and eventually die. It would be a form of suicide.

It is no less true of our spiritual food. **If we stop receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus in Holy Communion, we grow weak and eventually die, spiritually, we “have no life in us!” **To skip Sunday Mass sets up a deadly pattern of spiritual starvation, it is a deadly thing, a mortal sin!

For this reason the Church teaches: *the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. *(CCC # 2181) It comes down to this, either we eat or we die.

(Some formatting mix-ups may cause this to be very slightly different than the original, like I added an apostrophe, italicized the CCC quote, and I added paragraph breaks to make it easier to read online.)

This article was a supplement given when this talk was given. This is an excellent talk, totally worth listening to. It is about *Dominus Dies, *the Day of the Lord, an encyclical promulgated by Pope St. John Paul II. The link has links to a downloadable MP3, a podcast version, and a video of the talk.

But Jesus did other things the Jews complained about. Healed on the Sabbath also was eating and picking corn on the sabbath sort of disobeying? I’ll leave that for other to decided. And he spoke of when David ate the Shewbread in the temple.

 

[billcu1]

What about Saturday evening Mass? What about a friend, neighbor, or relative taking you? Or someone from the parish?

And what’s going to change at Thanksgiving that you plan on going back to Mass then?

I have talked with the Parish about Sundays they have no bus. I don’t know anyone really from the Parish to ask. And the priest and several of the priests we’ve had have said they can’t help with transportation. I would have to work on that my own. Saturdays Mass begins at 5PM and the last bus home leaves at 5:30. Or I would go to the vigil. I can make it to confessions on Saturday and take the bus home immediately and come back for weekday service. That’s all I know I can do.

 

[chefmomster2]

I have talked with the Parish about Sundays they have no bus. I don’t know anyone really from the Parish to ask. And the priest and several of the priests we’ve had have said they can’t help with transportation. I would have to work on that my own. Saturdays Mass begins at 5PM and the last bus home leaves at 5:30. Or I would go to the vigil. I can make it to confessions on Saturday and take the bus home immediately and come back for weekday service. That’s all I know I can do.

Would your parish secretary put a message in the bulletin for you? Something like: Parishioner looking for someone in the area of 1st and Main to provide transportation to weekly Mass. If you can help, please call ------------.

It might be worth asking. Pray for a solution.

 

[Xantippe]

But Jesus did other things the Jews complained about. Healed on the Sabbath also was eating and picking corn on the sabbath sort of disobeying? I’ll leave that for other to decided. And he spoke of when David ate the Shewbread in the temple.

Note that Jesus was doing more, not less, by healing.

The Pharisees were wrong to think that the disciples shouldn’t eat and pick grain on the Sabbath, because if they hadn’t done that, they might well have gone hungry, which would not have made for a very holy or joyous Sabbath. It’s supposed to be a day of rest, not a fast day.

From Mark 2:

"23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

"25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

“27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.””

So, presumably, a good Christian can work in a hospital on Sunday and also do what is necessary to obtain food for the day.

 

[St_Francis]

But Jesus did other things the Jews complained about. Healed on the Sabbath also was eating and picking corn on the sabbath sort of disobeying? I’ll leave that for other to decided. And he spoke of when David ate the Shewbread in the temple.

So are you saying that people who can go to Mass don’t have to because Christ, the King of Heaven and Earth, aggravated some Israelite leaders? I’m sure I am misunderstanding your question, that’s just what it seems like you are saying.

 

[Xantippe]

So are you saying that people who can go to Mass don’t have to because Christ, the King of Heaven and Earth, aggravated some Israelite leaders? I’m sure I am misunderstanding your question, that’s just what it seems like you are saying.

Also, bear in mind that, “He doesn’t go to synagogue!” was not one of the complaints lodged against Jesus. He seems to have spent a lot of time there–rather too much from the point of his enemies, actually.