Practicing Maronite/Canonically Latin?

[Vico]

Well if I am not subject to Byzantine traditions, then I should do the Roman traditions in the Divine Liturgy as you have suggested. You see where I am getting at? Didn’t that phrase “when in Rome” get coined from a similar incident? St. Ambrose followed the fasting day of the Romans when he was in Rome. He didn’t change Churches or anything. He said to follow the custom of the Church where you are. Its an age old Church belief.

I did not say what you claim, one is not subject to traditions, one is to follow the canons of their ascribed Church sui iuris. The canons are structured such that more than one matter is taken into consideration, the preservation of the eastern traditions is one matter that both codes address.

No, one follows the rubrics of the Liturgy which is occurring as prescribed regardless of one’s own Church sui iuris.

Generally, travelers are not bound to the particular laws of their own territory when they are absent from that territory. See CIC Canons below. Territory is established by domicile or semi-domicile.

Terms

*Peregrini: In ecclesiastical law those who are living outside, but without losing, the place of their domicile or semi-domicile. *

*Vagi: In ecclesiastical law “wanderers,” who are persons having no fixed residence or are far from home. *

Reference Latin Canons:

Can. 11
Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who were baptised in the catholic Church or received into it, and who have a sufficient use of reason and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, who have completed their seventh year of age.

Can. 12
§1 Universal laws are binding everywhere on all those for whom they were enacted.
§2 All those actually present in a particular territory in which certain universal laws are not in force, are exempt from those laws.
§3 Without prejudice to the provisions of can. 13, laws enacted for a particular territory bind those for whom they were enacted and who have a domicile or quasi-domicile in that territory and are actually residing in it.

Can. 13
§1 Particular laws are not presumed to be personal, but rather territorial, unless the contrary is clear.
§2 Peregrini are not bound:
1° by the particular laws of their own territory while they are absent from it, unless the transgression of those laws causes harm in their own territory, or unless the laws are personal
2° by the laws of the territory in which they are present, except for those laws which take care of public order, or determine the formalities of legal acts, or concern immovable property located in the territory.
§3 Vagi are bound by both the universal and the particular laws which are in force in the place in which they are present.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can. 13
§1 Particular laws are not presumed to be personal, but rather territorial, unless the contrary is clear.
§2 Peregrini are not bound:
1° by the particular laws of their own territory while they are absent from it, unless the transgression of those laws causes harm in their own territory, or unless the laws are personal
2° by the laws of the territory in which they are present, except for those laws which take care of public order, or determine the formalities of legal acts, or concern immovable property located in the territory.
§3 Vagi are bound by both the universal and the particular laws which are in force in the place in which they are present.

Where am I present then? Is it not in the Ukrainian Church, in my Eparchy? And am I not absent from the Roman Catholic Church because I am attending a Ukrainian Church?

 

[Aramis]

Where am I present then? Is it not in the Ukrainian Church, in my Eparchy? And am I not absent from the Roman Catholic Church because I am attending a Ukrainian Church?

If, say, you are in Ottowa, you ARE present in the Roman diocese of Ottowa. At the same time, you’re in the UGCC eparchy for that area as well. But unless and until you apply for transfer, you’re bound to the Roman bishop; he’s your bishop. Until that Roman bishop gives you permission, or you’ve applied for transfer, you’re still obligated to do so.

If you go to Brooklyn, NY, you’d be present in on no less than 4 eparchy’s turf, plus a Roman diocese.

 

[The_Idiot]

And how does he practice should the Latin Hierarch refuse to 'hand him over ’ to the Eastern Eparch/Exarch , even after the Eastern Hierarch has said he is happy to take him under his omophor ?

A situation like this is not unknown

 

[Vico]

Where am I present then? Is it not in the Ukrainian Church, in my Eparchy? And am I not absent from the Roman Catholic Church because I am attending a Ukrainian Church?

It is as Aramis said.

A place is in a territory and that territory is one or more jurisdictions simultaneously. The bishop/eparch/exarch of the place, of a persons ascribed Church sui iuris, is their proper ordinary, if one exists, otherwise the default is that (unless another is officially assigned) the Latin Church bishop of the place is the proper ordinary, if one exists. That is the bishop that gives permission to transfer, dispensations, etc.

 

[ConstantineTG]

If, say, you are in Ottowa, you ARE present in the Roman diocese of Ottowa. At the same time, you’re in the UGCC eparchy for that area as well. But unless and until you apply for transfer, you’re bound to the Roman bishop; he’s your bishop. Until that Roman bishop gives you permission, or you’ve applied for transfer, you’re still obligated to do so.

If you go to Brooklyn, NY, you’d be present in on no less than 4 eparchy’s turf, plus a Roman diocese.

I didn’t see it in the canons that Vico posted. I am present in my Eparchy, unless you are suggesting that the confines of the UGCC Cathedral is the territory of the Roman Archbishop.

 

[Vico]

Where am I present then? Is it not in the Ukrainian Church, in my Eparchy? And am I not absent from the Roman Catholic Church because I am attending a Ukrainian Church?

You are thinking that by not being in a Latin parish that you are absent? You could say you are absent from your proper parish. However, the proper parish, the Latin one closest to where you live, and the bishop for that parish (by territory), are the ones that are obligated to provide for you, and that keep your sacramental records for sacraments received in that territory at any Catholic Church, and they provide the permissions.

The Latin canon law applies due to being ascribed to the Latin Church. As shown below, when one is living at a place for three months at least, quasidomicile is established and so one then has their own Latin parish priest and Ordinary. This is so even if not attending a Latin parish.

CIC

Can. 102 §1 Domicile is acquired by residence in the territory of a parish, or at least of a diocese, which is either linked to the intention of remaining there permanently if nothing should occasion its withdrawal, or in fact protracted for a full five years.
§2 Quasidomicile is acquired by residence in the territory of a parish, or at least of a diocese, which is either linked to the intention of remaining there for three months if nothing should occasion its withdrawal, or in fact protracted for three months.
§3 Domicile or quasidomicile in the territory of a parish is called parochial; in the territory of a diocese, even if not in a parish, it is called diocesan.

Can. 107 §1 Both through domicile and through quasidomicile everyone acquires his or her own parish priest and Ordinary.
§2 The proper parish priest or Ordinary of a vagus is the parish priest or Ordinary of the place where the vagus is actually residing.
§3 The proper parish priest of one who has only a diocesan domicile or quasidomicile is the parish priest of the place where that person is actually residing.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Can. 102 §1 Domicile is acquired by residence in the territory of a parish, or at least of a diocese, which is either linked to the intention of remaining there permanently if nothing should occasion its withdrawal, or in fact protracted for a full five years.

I do intend to remain in the UGCC permanently. So there

 

[Vico]

And how does he practice should the Latin Hierarch refuse to 'hand him over ’ to the Eastern Eparch/Exarch , even after the Eastern Hierarch has said he is happy to take him under his omophor ?

A situation like this is not unknown

If a transfer is not granted? Then no sacramental discipline is changed and the original rights and obligations remain. It is true, transfer has been denied to many. This is because the ritus (heritage) of a person is a constituent of the person. But the Church makes is simple for inter-ritual Catholic married couples (and their families) to follow the holy days and fasting & abstinance and liturgy of one or the other which eliminates a major issue leading to transfers.

Consider just these nine matters which have canononical prescriptions:

Baptism (B)
Chrismation (C)
Eucharist (E)
Penance (P)
Matrimony (M)
Orders (O)
Annointing (A)
Liturgy (L)
Holy Days, Fast & Abstinance (H)

If the letters above are the codes for the matters and two different ritual Churches prescriptions are represented by 1 and 2, then (excluding extreme situations, or bi-ritual faculties):

Clergy (of ch. 1) may serve: B1, C1, E1, P1, M1/2, O1, A1, L1, H1, F1
Faithful (of ch. 2) may receive: B2, C2, E2/1, P2/1, M2/1*, O2, A2, L2/1, H2, F2

• of one of the spouses

 

[ConstantineTG]

And how does he practice should the Latin Hierarch refuse to 'hand him over ’ to the Eastern Eparch/Exarch , even after the Eastern Hierarch has said he is happy to take him under his omophor ?

A situation like this is not unknown

Then I become Orthodox

 

[The_Idiot]

…

If you go to Brooklyn, NY, you’d be present in on no less than 4 eparchy’s turf, plus a Roman diocese.

That’s strange !

I thought that Brooklyn was in 8 Eparchies and 1 Exarchate .

Melkite , Armenian, Ruthenian, Romanian, Maronite, Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and UGCC

And Syro-Malankara

But then I could be wrong

 

[Aramis]

That’s strange !

I thought that Brooklyn was in 8 Eparchies and 1 Exarchate .

Melkite , Armenian, Ruthenian, Romanian, Maronite, Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and UGCC

And Syro-Malankara

But then I could be wrong

I could only remember 4 of those… so “no less than 4”…

Detroit’s got as many, and a couple more IIRC… It’s the hotbed of ECism…