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Discerning2
Guest
Thank you Elizabeth. Great Comment!
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JRKH
Guest
Yes, the bolded portion is the core of this thread. The specific situation at this parish and trying to help this one person to better understanding. In fact I think that there have been a number of persons who have said we cannot “Know” if their is actual sin being committed. Everything else is each of us trying to come to a better understanding of the Church’s teachings to Love each other as Christ Loves us.
As to the infallibility of Church teachings there may be some confusion. The Church never teaches anything that is in error. Some core teachings cannot change. There are other teachings that can change or more properly evolve over time. Homosexuality is a case in point.
Homosexual behavior is a sin, it is a disordered action. This teaching will not change. However how we view and treat those with homosexual tendancies has evolved over the years. In times past such people were hated, shunned and even killed for their tendancies. Today we are encouraged to see these people as brothers (and sisters) who bear a tremendous cross just as others do (mentally ill, diseased, deformed, etc.) We are to Love them and to help them to overcome their cross so they can live more fully in God’s graces.
Peace
James
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Dirk_Skene
Guest
I see by your bio you are Lutheren. To have you “swim the Tiber” would be cool. You know you would be welcomed. However I FULLY understand the reason you mentioned that you hesitate :sad_yes: I can’t tell you how many times I have concidered Orthodoxy. But I reilize my problem is not with the Church, it is with individual, spinless prelates.
I hope you join us some day. Untill then please pray with me that true Catholic men of God will stand up & be counted & not let the cowards take over.
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Newbie2
Guest
Gives all new meaning to “thinking outside the box”.
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graceandglory
Guest
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Newbie2
Guest
Yeah, I’m confuzzled too.
JRKH, do you mean:
- That there are no Catholics in active, homosexual relationships?
- That two homosexuals in such a relationship cannot be called a couple?
- That being in an active, homosexual reltionship somehow negates one’s Cathlicity?
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JRKH
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pnewton
Guest
Any Catholic that is engaged in any habitual mortal sin is cut off from the regular Sacramental Grace that the Church offers, until such a time the mortal sin is absolved. This does not preclude other, less certain means of grace, nor that such a one must go to Hell. It does mean they should not receive communion, or else they compound their sin. It also means they are not to be in positions of leadership in the Church.
This applies to mortal sin beyond the scope of homosexual acts, too.
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JRKH
Guest
Come on folks this is pretty basic stuff here.
If a person freely belongs to a specific organization that person, by virtue of claiming membership, is claiming acceptance of the teachings, the rules, the regulations of that organization. The Catholic Church is just such an organization. No one is forced to be or remain Catholic
The Catholic Church teaches that Homosexual acts are sinful. Therefore those who wish to be members of this Church need to accept this teaching.
Those people who dispute this teaching and do so publicly by defying the church’s teachings on the acceptability of homosexual acts should not be calling themselves Catholic.
If Catholics do feel that the church should review its teachings then there are channels for that within the Church. But until the teaching is changed, then, as the catachism says, Homosexual Acts can never be accepted or condoned.
This is not intended as a slam on anyones intentions worthiness or beliefs. But if you wish to claim to be Catholic then BE catholic, If not then please do not misrepresent Catholicism to others.
As a note here: I was away from the Church for many years. In all of theat time I never presented myself as a practicing Catholic nor did I express my views as acceptably catholic. I had the courtesy, when I was away from the church, to respect the Church and Her teachings.
Peace
James
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Cracker_Mom
Guest
The link was to a site “Dignity” that appears to be counter to Church teaching on issues of homosexuality & women’s ordination.
They did have an interesting quote from Dante, tho’, re the most heated place in Hell being reserved for those who remain neutral in moral crisis. Which kind of leads you back to the principle of correcting errors in all charity.
P.S. Dignity also had a feature for the “Leather Community” and it didn’t appear to involve straight older guys out for a weekend ride on their Harley…
I didn’t want to explore much further.
They did have an interesting quote from Dante, tho’, re the most heated place in Hell being reserved for those who remain neutral in moral crisis. Which kind of leads you back to the principle of correcting errors in all charity.
P.S. Dignity also had a feature for the “Leather Community” and it didn’t appear to involve straight older guys out for a weekend ride on their Harley…
I didn’t want to explore much further.
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pnewton
Guest
This is downright heresy.
"We believe that gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons can express their sexuality in a manner that is consonant with Christ’s teaching.* We believe that we can express our sexuality physically**, in a unitive manner that is loving, life-giving, and life-affirming. We believe that all sexuality should be exercised in an ethically responsible and unselfish way."*
No you can’t. That is why God rained down judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah. Heck, these people are so desperate to justify their sin, they even include bisexuality. How exactly can a bisexual monogomously express their bisexuality? No, sin has corrupted their brains.
No, this group is not Catholic, despite their name.
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that_name
Guest
For a true look at homosexuality in the light of the Church, check out Courage
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LittleOne1
Guest
No you are incorrect; the Church has authority and protection by infallibility on matters of moral and theological teaching and this includes teachings that are consistent on the matter of homosexaulity (these have been upheld and taught since the beginning of the Church).
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
That is the correct understanding of Church infallibility.
These are the organs in which infallibility is found in the Church:
•the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See;
•ecumenical councils under the headship of the pope; and
•the pope himself separately.
Christ taught us when our brothers are sinning against us Matthew 18:
“If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
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13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
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If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.”
We are not saying throw them out and say you can never be a part of this church, but what we are saying is that this couple who at present are acting at the very least in a scandalous way should not simply be able to walk around as a member of the community as if nothing wrong is going on. For them to partake in the Eucharist and have a very active role despite public scandal because it gives people the impression that this is really not a problem (which is erroneous). We are saying they need to be confronted on the matter for the sake of their salvation (if indeed they are doing what they make it sound like they are)- that is true charity. Otherwise a math teacher should allow people to say 2+2 =5 even if we say this is wrong and not correct them. We welcome all, but we are all called to conform to Christ. It would be one thing if they were struggling with the sin and wanted to change, but instead they openly celebrate at the very least scandal (which is a sin). Did Christ tell the rich man actually no he didn’t have to give up his things to follow Him just to increase the size of the flock? No even if that meant getting the rich man’s family and people he influenced on board with him. To be with Christ means taking up your cross daily and following him (and his commandments which are taught today by the Church- otherwise hell prevailed and the Church is a liar and we cannot trust anyone to know the truth). These men may indeed have the cross of homosexual desires, but they are called to purity and chastity just as single people or clergy. As Christ told Paul about his own matter about the flesh, His grace is sufficient.
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graceandglory
Guest
I was only being sarcastic. Thought that was discernible by my emoticons. For the record I believe homosexual activity is an abomination. ***
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. – Lev.20:13***
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Discerning2
Guest
Gosh, I hate being drawn into quoting things, but from the website you suggest:
'It need only be added here that not everything in a conciliar or papal pronouncement, in which some doctrine is defined, is to be treated as definitive and infallible. For example, in the lengthy Bull of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception the strictly definitive and infallible portion is comprised in a sentence or two; and the same is true in many cases in regard to conciliar decisions. The merely argumentative and justificatory statements embodied in definitive judgments, however true and authoritative they may be, are not covered by the guarantee of infallibility which attaches to the strictly definitive sentences — unless, indeed, their infallibility has been previously or subsequently established by an independent decision."
It actually accurately describes my opinion above that our church is an organic institution open to revealed truths.
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pnewton
Guest
The Church is not open to a direct contradiction of previous dogma on morality or theology.
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neophyte
Guest
Perhaps a quote from the Catechism is in order here. We are ALL called to chastity, and it most cetainly IS in conformance with our “essential nature”:
2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.
**The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift. **
…
2345 Chastity is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort.The Holy Spirit enables one whom the water of Baptism has regenerated to imitate the purity of Christ.
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art6.shtml
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OraLabora
Guest
Many people, even devout Catholics, often confound celibacy with chastity.
For those who need help, chastity is abstinence from illicit sexual relationships. A married couple, having a sexual relationship open to creation, is in fact being chaste if the spouses forsake all others.
Celibacy is abstinence from all sexual relations. A celibate person is necessarily chaste, but a chaste person is not necessarily celibate!
I’m sure this has been said many times on these pages, but clearly it still needs to be taught.
For those who need help, chastity is abstinence from illicit sexual relationships. A married couple, having a sexual relationship open to creation, is in fact being chaste if the spouses forsake all others.
Celibacy is abstinence from all sexual relations. A celibate person is necessarily chaste, but a chaste person is not necessarily celibate!
I’m sure this has been said many times on these pages, but clearly it still needs to be taught.
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BobObob
Guest
I do recognize that earlier you said that, “A person certainly can be a practicing Catholic who struggles with homosexual tendencies while upholding Church teaching on the matter. (none of us are perfect and sinless)” However, there seems to be intense bias by the average Catholic, even Catholics who seem to take their faith seriously, against those who have samesex attraction. Because this is a bit of a personal issue for me (I experience samesex attraction) I would like to highlight the following:
CCC 1763: The term “passions” belongs to the Christian patrimony. Feelings or passions are emotions or movements of the sensitive appetite that incline us to act or not to act in regard to something felt or imagined to be good or evil.
CCC 1767: In themselves passions are neither good nor evil. They are morally qualified only to the extent that they effectively engage reason and will. Passions are said to be voluntary, “either because they are commanded by the will or because the will does not place obstacles in their way.” It belongs to the perfection of the moral or human good that the passions be governed by reason.
Notice that it says passions are in themselves immoral. This includes erotic passions.
Also notice that it is said to be voluntary insofar as the will acts on those passions, or passively is ruled by them.
I think that this shows that the Church does not hold that the experience of samesex attraction is not in itself sinful (as many Catholics seem to assume).
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pnewton
Guest
I think it also needs to be remember that even those who do engage in homosexual acts despite their attempts to follow the teaching of the Church are no less Catholic. After all, we all sin and we all have our areas where temptation gets the best of us. That is why we have the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. Defeat only comes when one throws in the towel on the battle, justifies the sin and quits the struggle. Again, many Catholics have been there from time to time. Homosexuality as a lifestyle is no worse than many other areas of mortal sin we can fall prey to.
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