Praise and Worship choruses during Mass

[twosweetgirls]

Have you verified that your Parish is making these copies and binders legally?

No, they’re not photocopies; they’re professionally printed (likely by our local printer, who’s a parishioner) and after each song there’s the name of the publisher, songbook from which it came and original publish date.

So I’d say I don’t have a case with that. BTW, a few days ago I sent an e-mail to my priest, expressing my disappointment with the addition of the praise choruses, and why I dislike them so much in the context of Mass. He was at least nice enough to let me know when they’d primarily be using the praise choruses, mainly at the 10:00 a.m. (and biggest) Mass.

 

[kage_ar]

No, they’re not photocopies; they’re professionally printed (likely by our local printer, who’s a parishioner) and after each song there’s the name of the publisher, songbook from which it came and original publish date.

.

That does not mean that the Parish has secured printing rites for publishing these.

I’d ask. You’d be shocked how many people do not understand copyrights and the law

 

[MusicMan]

No, they’re not photocopies; they’re professionally printed (likely by our local printer, who’s a parishioner) and after each song there’s the name of the publisher, songbook from which it came and original publish date.

A photocopied piece of music and a piece that has been reprinted by a local printing company are the same in the eyes of copyright law.

If your parish did not secure the licensing rights to do this with each piece of music, then they are in violation of copyright law, and a notification to one publisher would result in the rest probably looking into this.

This actually sounds like a very serious breach of copyright law.

 

[coolduude]

I don’t get it, though.
Are Catholics against these songs because they do not fit in conext with the Sacrifice of the Mass?
My opinion is that as long as God gets the praise he deserves, any song can be sung, as long as it doesn’t contradict Catholic teaching.
What would be wrong with this idea? Any suggestions would be great.
My parish (which is attached to a grade school) sung some of these songs as well.
It sounded like we were in some Baptist church singing crazy Gospel songs (“Ugghhhh” to say the least).
I think we’re more of a liberal parish, with possible liturgical abuse in the past. No women priests, but lay people giving the homily. Those are stories for a different time.

Could somebody clarify the Catholic stance on these songs; it seems to be the only thing left out of this post?

 

[FrDavid96]

I don’t get it, though.
Are Catholics against these songs because they do not fit in conext with the Sacrifice of the Mass?
My opinion is that as long as God gets the praise he deserves, any song can be sung, as long as it doesn’t contradict Catholic teaching.
What would be wrong with this idea? Any suggestions would be great.
My parish (which is attached to a grade school) sung some of these songs as well.
It sounded like we were in some Baptist church singing crazy Gospel songs (“Ugghhhh” to say the least).
I think we’re more of a liberal parish, with possible liturgical abuse in the past. No women priests, but lay people giving the homily. Those are stories for a different time.

Could somebody clarify the Catholic stance on these songs; it seems to be the only thing left out of this post?

There are a number of Church documents dealing with the issue. In summary, music used at the Mass must be fitting for the Holy Sacrifice, be dignified, theologically sound, seasonally appropriate. Gregorian Chant enjoys primacy of place in the Mass. The less a song is “like” Gregorian Chant, the less it is appropriate for Mass. When a song crosses the line and becomes inappropriate is a very subjective decision.

The Church does expect that the conferences of bishops for each region/nation approves a list of acceptable hymns. The local bishop has authority to permit or prohibit individual hymns/songs.
The US bishops (for whatever reason) have never approved such a list. Since we don’t have that list to rely upon, it’s very difficult for Catholics to make a sound judgment on what is appropriate. Therein lies the problem.

 

[MusicMan]

The Diocese I live in has promulgated a set of regulations for music for Confirmation. Although there is a list and the option to choose music for certain parts of the Mass that is not on the list, the regulations are very specific and realistically limit how “secularized” the musical style can be.

Even if the Diocesesan Bishop promulgated a similar set of regulations for music in general, it would be a very positive step, and we might not need to take any more.

And just as an aside, the last time my group did Confirmation, the Diocesesan Liturgy Director absolved me from the “needs to be submitted to the Diocese for final approval” clause in the regulations because he knew I would pick out appropriate music and Mass settings.

 

[elts1956]

The million dollar question, I guess, is what is going on in Catholic parishes?

Why does the OP have to face a steady diet of praise-and-worship songs that would be appropriate in a nondenominational protestant service down the street while the hymnals gather dust?

Why does the music director at my geographical parish think a rock band is appropriate for Sunday mass?

Why does another person worry about the Billy-Joel-style-showtune mass that is driving them from their parish?

I don’t think any of us are so particular that we’re demanding only Gregorian chant or Latin motets.

The Church has lost much in the way of proper hymns, chant and ritual in the past 45 years. I am involved in a Why Catholic instruction group and we are studying the Sacraments for this first series. I was reminded once again, how much symbolism, such as statues and music are so important to the celebration of the Mass. It seems these days, we have more Protestant songs during the Mass than truly liturgical music. Gregorian Chant can be so beautiful. The Church used it to transport the faithful to a closer understanding of Christ’s Sacrifice for centuries. Those of you who have never heard a TLM Mass with all the adoration, pomp and ritual have really missed a great experience. I even remembered “Et introibo et altari Dei” the other day while discussing the Sacraments at Why Catholic. And I think I remember the translation. “I go unto the Altar of God.” Don’t remember the latin for “the, God of my joy and my youth”. Now where did that pop up from? I haven’t been to a TLM Mass for 45 years. I must have gotten something out of them.

 

[agapewolf]

A photocopied piece of music and a piece that has been reprinted by a local printing company are the same in the eyes of copyright law.

If your parish did not secure the licensing rights to do this with each piece of music, then they are in violation of copyright law, and a notification to one publisher would result in the rest probably looking into this.

This actually sounds like a very serious breach of copyright law.

No it doesn’t… If they included the copyright info after each song, most likely it WAS licensed correctly. All the church has to do is pay one license fee per publisher to make the books.

But thats beside the point. What you are suggesting here is a very passive aggressive way of “getting your way”. They could simply then pay the correct fees and the books would be legit. Why not be honest and have conversations with the right people?

I don’t know if there is copyright police, but Reporting the church without inquiring to the church itself could possibly cost the church money in fines. If nothing else, they just pay the license fee.

 

[myroneffing]

There are a number of Church documents dealing with the issue. In summary, music used at the Mass must be fitting for the Holy Sacrifice, be dignified, theologically sound, seasonally appropriate. Gregorian Chant enjoys primacy of place in the Mass. The less a song is “like” Gregorian Chant, the less it is appropriate for Mass. When a song crosses the line and becomes inappropriate is a very subjective decision.

The Church does expect that the conferences of bishops for each region/nation approves a list of acceptable hymns. The local bishop has authority to permit or prohibit individual hymns/songs.
The US bishops (for whatever reason) have never approved such a list. Since we don’t have that list to rely upon, it’s very difficult for Catholics to make a sound judgment on what is appropriate. Therein lies the problem.

I guess I’m not too impressed with the notion that bishops know everything (especially after seeing what has happened in America in recent years.) So it seems to me that someone who wants to select music for Mass or who wants to know what is good music for Mass simply has to dig into the theology of the Mass to understand just what it is that we are trying to do at Mass. As a certain bishop was quoted as saying, “I thought the theme of the Mass was the unbloody sacrifice of Christ?” His idea is in the right direction. Would you want to do a rock concert in front of the Cross on Calvary, or at the last supper, or even with the Apostles after the Resurrection? The Church is always “the company of the apostles” so what would you want to do in their presence? Show off?

 

[MusicMan]

No it doesn’t… If they included the copyright info after each song, most likely it WAS licensed correctly. All the church has to do is pay one license fee per publisher to make the books.

Such a reprint would need to include some indication that it was licensed. Including the copyright info wouldn’t suffice.

But thats beside the point. What you are suggesting here is a very passive aggressive way of “getting your way”. They could simply then pay the correct fees and the books would be legit. Why not be honest and have conversations with the right people?

Hmmm… if the church in question is doing something illegal …

I don’t know if there is copyright police, but Reporting the church without inquiring to the church itself could possibly cost the church money in fines. If nothing else, they just pay the license fee.

I don’t know if there is a copyright police or if they’re an urban legend. My band library contains only original editions, and it does so because I believe I have a responsibility to support the people who wrote the music. I don’t buy things out of fear of the copyright police.

I suspect that reports come about more akin to Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon than it does any group of people working for publishing companies. While I don’t have anything to hide in my school’s library, I probably wouldn’t just let a publisher’s copyright enforcer go through it without at least some major consideration, if not a court order.

 

[sharmin]

I know this has been discussed many times here, and I’ve even added my voice of dissent that praise/worship choruses are sung during the Mass. Well, I just am so disappointed now, because in my church the regular songbooks have been replaced in the pews. . .

with brand-spanking new, three-ring binders of nothing but praise/worship choruses. :nope: In every single pew, and my parish is huge. “Shout to the Lord”, “Days of Elijah”, “Lord I Lift Your Name on High”, “God Is In Control”, the dreaded “Lilies of the Valley Amen”, it’s all there. In fact, the regular songbooks have been relegated to a portable bookshelf that people barely notice as they walk in.

What a shame.

I know you’re disappointed, but I’d give anything to go to your chuch. Trade?

 

[twosweetgirls]

Sharmin, why is that?

 

[sharmin]

Sharmin, why is that?

I love that type of music. It get me so focused on the Lord.

 

[twosweetgirls]

I can understand where you’re coming from. It’s just that, for me, now knowing what I know about the Holy Sacrifice and Celebration of Mass, where Christ is fully, truly present in the Blessed Sacrament, I can’t honor Him while singing stuff that, IMO, lends better to a tent revival than the reverence and respect due Him in Holy Mass.

Gads, run-on sentence much?

 

[rgm]

I am a cradle catholic and I have always attended mass. A few years ago I moved to a neighboring parish where they have a LT mass. Although I have always participated in the mass I have never felt as connected with the holy sacrament as I do during this mass.
May God Bless you,

 

[benedictgal]

I love that type of music. It get me so focused on the Lord.

I am in St. Louis right now. This morning, I was blessed to attend the Gateway Liturgical Conference where I heard Archbishop Malcolm Rajith, the Secretary for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments deliver an address on the Ars Celebrandi.

In my opinion, based on what I heard the Archbishop say (and I took about six pages of notes), the big problem with this kind of music is that it does not take into account that something divine is happening during the Mass. We are united with the angels and saints in heaven. Our sacrifice has to be pleasing to the Lord, not to ourselves. He said that this is one of the main problems. When we make the Mass about ourselves and not about the Lord, then we have lost the meaning of the Holy Sacrifice.

When I get back, I’ll post some of what he said. Given the fact that I am writing from the hotel lobby (the hotel charges $9,95 for in-room internet and I don’t have my notes with me), I’ll have my notes with me and give you a clearer picture of what he said.

I did ask him about the issue of music and the problems with P & W stuff creeping into the Mass. He told me that early next year, the Holy See is going to release a document on music that will address the issues that I brought up during our conversation. I think that this document will have some ramifications on what type of music we are using in the Mass, but, without seeing the document, I can only go by what he said.

 

[FrDavid96]

I am in St. Louis right now. This morning, I was blessed to attend the Gateway Liturgical Conference where I heard Archbishop Malcolm Rajith, the Secretary for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments deliver an address on the Ars Celebrandi.

In my opinion, based on what I heard the Archbishop say (and I took about six pages of notes), the big problem with this kind of music is that it does not take into account that something divine is happening during the Mass. We are united with the angels and saints in heaven. Our sacrifice has to be pleasing to the Lord, not to ourselves. He said that this is one of the main problems. When we make the Mass about ourselves and not about the Lord, then we have lost the meaning of the Holy Sacrifice.

When I get back, I’ll post some of what he said. Given the fact that I am writing from the hotel lobby (the hotel charges $9,95 for in-room internet and I don’t have my notes with me), I’ll have my notes with me and give you a clearer picture of what he said.

I did ask him about the issue of music and the problems with P & W stuff creeping into the Mass. He told me that early next year, the Holy See is going to release a document on music that will address the issues that I brought up during our conversation. I think that this document will have some ramifications on what type of music we are using in the Mass, but, without seeing the document, I can only go by what he said.

Please do share with us when you’re able!

For over a century now, the Holy See has been addressing the issue of music at Mass (adoremus.org/Actionsofholysee.html)
On the one hand, I am a bit cynical that such guidelines will actually be followed (especially in the US), and on the other hand, given the tone and clarity of what we have seen from the Holy See in very recent years, maybe this will finally be the time.
(Is it time to hang up the “out of business” sign on the musical cafeteria?)

 

[Lepanto]

If anybody wants “Praise and Worship” they should use Gregorian chant. What on earth is Gregorian chant if not authentic praise and worship?

Not only that, but it’s the official “P & W” of the Church!

“The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services”.

• Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium §116

Tell that to your liturgist.

 

[elts1956]

I am in St. Louis right now. This morning, I was blessed to attend the Gateway Liturgical Conference where I heard Archbishop Malcolm Rajith, the Secretary for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments deliver an address on the Ars Celebrandi.

In my opinion, based on what I heard the Archbishop say (and I took about six pages of notes), the big problem with this kind of music is that it does not take into account that something divine is happening during the Mass. We are united with the angels and saints in heaven. Our sacrifice has to be pleasing to the Lord, not to ourselves. He said that this is one of the main problems. When we make the Mass about ourselves and not about the Lord, then we have lost the meaning of the Holy Sacrifice.

When I get back, I’ll post some of what he said. Given the fact that I am writing from the hotel lobby (the hotel charges $9,95 for in-room internet and I don’t have my notes with me), I’ll have my notes with me and give you a clearer picture of what he said.

I did ask him about the issue of music and the problems with P & W stuff creeping into the Mass. He told me that early next year, the Holy See is going to release a document on music that will address the issues that I brought up during our conversation. I think that this document will have some ramifications on what type of music we are using in the Mass, but, without seeing the document, I can only go by what he said.

I have always loved such songs as “On Eagles Wings”, “Here I am Lord”. But in the sentence that states, “When we make the Mass about ourselves and not about the Lord, then we have lost the meaning of the Holy Sacrifice”, I can see where songs such as these do not suffice to bring true glory to God. CCC 1158 “The harmony of signs (songs, music, words and actions) is all the more expressive and fruitful when expressed in the culteral ( by culture, I am assuming his meaning is the 'culture of the Catholic faith”, not the culture of of various ethnic groups.) richness of the people of God who celebrate. “Hence religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services”, in conformity with the church’s norms, “the voices of the faithful may be heard.” But “the texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic Doctrine. Indeed they should be drawn chiefly from the Sacred Scripture and from liturgical sources.” Can’t say this has been done for the last 35 years???

I am looking forward to hearing what else was said.

 

[Cat]

Because of staffing issues in our city, I’ve been playing (piano) for many Masses in the last few months. It’s rather exhausting. I enjoy playing for My Lord and His people, but it leaves me with little free time on the weekends.

No organists. The few we have left are getting older and beginning to suffer from debilitating disorders that make it hard for them to play at all. One organist told me that many people are forced to have a pianist or no music at all for their FUNERAL Mass because there just aren’t enough organists around. Sad.

And there are no replacements. I’m very involved with youth music in our city, and I don’t know of one organ student. The organists I know don’t know of any students in the area. And they tell me that Protestant, Catholic, and secular universities are dismantling their organ programs because there are no applicants.

I can’t even imagine the people singing Gregorian chant. It is totally outside of my brain ability to imagine this. I can just as easily imagine Star Trek transporters that eliminate the need for cars.

The people don’t even sing Holy God, We Praise Thy Name, supposedly the favorite of Catholics everywhere. They just stand there.

Only a few cantors that I have played for are capable of singing Gregorian chant. Most are not. I appreciate their willingness to sing at all. Many times I end up playing a Mass no cantor at all. Not a good thing.

I am shaking my head here as I read what many of you say about music. I can’t imagine Gregorian chant, organ music. Maybe hymns. Frankly, I’m beginning to wonder about the folk songs of Haugen and Haas, too. No one wants to sing any of it.

Where will the musicians come from and who will train them and how will the people learn these things of which you speak? I’m not being facetious. I’m truly shaking my head and wondering where you all live that these things are happening. I can’t imagine it. How can you have this kind of music with no musicians available?

Will they be paid well? I can see that perhaps if the Catholic Church is willing to start paying organists, that we might just attract the few that are still left. But what happens when they die or retire?

Same for cantors–they aren’t paid right now (in our parishes). Will they be paid for doing chants in a foreign language? I personally don’t think that anyone will be willing to try this–they don’t want to try traditional music, let alone something like chant.

I’m rehearsal accompanist for the Mozart Requiem. Out of the entire choir, not one person knows any Latin. The conductor is giving people the pronunciation, but he is not absolutely certain of all the pronunciations.

Not one person in a CHOIR knows Latin. So how will Gregorian chant be done? With a karoake machine that feeds phonetic pronunciations of the words to the cantor?

Our city has a pop. of 150,000, and is 65 miles away from Chicago, and about 45 miles away from Madison, WI, so we’re not out in the boonies. And we have the oldest music club in the U.S., so our city isn’t “hicksville” when it comes to fine music. There are plenty of musicians, but they’re secular, not Christian, and they won’t sing or play in church without a fee.

I just don’t see how you all have these kinds of music and we are lucky to have any kind of music. I wonder if it’s because of the nearby proximity of Willowcreek and several of its church plants?