"Praise and Worship" music: is it acceptable as liturgical music for Mass?

[Eric_Olsen]

Meanwhile, stop telling the rest of us, that we’re being irreverent at Mass, and are in violation of the Church’s mandates. We’re doing exactly what the Church has prayed for at Vatican II.

Jim

you are not doing what Vatican II asked for by adding distracting electric guitars, bongos, bad dancing, hand gestures and Glory and praise music that focuses on community and not God.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church. ( Bold is my emphasis)

Jim

Indeed, we are all members of the Body of Christ - but the Church is not a democracy! We cannot vote truth into existence, as those who cry “We are Church!” erroneously presume. The Mass is not some weekly sing-a-long. It is the most august celebration of the Eucharist! It is where Heaven and earth meet - and it is a foretaste of our eternal reward. And I would shudder to think that eternity would be one big kumbya fest.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

you are not doing what Vatican II asked for by adding distracting electric guitars, bongos, bad dancing, hand gestures and Glory and praise music that focuses on community and not God.

We must understand that Mass is about God and not about us!

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The fact that the Mass isn’t being said according to your taste, is the problem, not people singing praise and worship music.

Jim

No! The problem is that some people think that Mass is supposed to entertain them and give them a good “show”.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

There is nothing that needs further interpretation, as far as what constitutes, active participation. Active participation not only includes our silence during proper times in the liturgy, but also during times of praise and worship, which the hymns that are sung by the faithful are for. To ensure participation, it is necessary to provide music that people can participate in, not just listen to.

This just shows that you really don’t know what the Church means by “participatio actuosa”.

Its been 40 years since this document was written. The Church has not put a stop to Praise and Worship music, but in fact, approves and uses the OCP hymnals, throughout the United States.

Please show me where OCP “resources” have been formally approved by either the USCCB or a majority of Bishops other than the Bishop of Portland.

Until such time, (if ever it comes) where the Bishops prohibit the songs that are found in the OCP or other approved hymnals, people who don’t like it, are just going to have to endure it, or find a parish that suits their taste.

Yup, I would bet a lot of them will end up going to a Protestant group or somewhere else that will entertain them and give them a “show” and tell them the doctrines that tickle their ears.

Meanwhile, stop telling the rest of us, that we’re being irreverent at Mass, and are in violation of the Church’s mandates. We’re doing exactly what the Church has prayed for at Vatican II.

So long as they exist, I will never cease to speak out against abuses, distortions, and perversions of the Holy Mass!

 

[benedictgal]

This just shows that you really don’t know what the Church means by “participatio actuosa”.
Please show me where OCP “resources” have been formally approved by either the USCCB or a majority of Bishops other than the Bishop of Portland. Yup, I would bet a lot of them will end up going to a Protestant group or somewhere else that will entertain them and give them a “show” and tell them the doctrines that tickle their ears. So long as they exist, I will never cease to speak out against abuses, distortions, and perversions of the Holy Mass!

You have just underscored the major problem with praise and worship music. It’s all entertainment and for show. As I have said in previous posts, it talks about how I’m doing all of this for God, litting His Name on hgh and singing of His love forever. It’s all praising and glorifying me! No wonder there is little substance to this stuff.

Regrding OCP, I have yet to find the name of one priest (other than composters like Rev. RIcky Manolo, CSP and a couple of others) or one Ordinary or Metropolitan who has given some sort of textual approval to this company’s hymnals. As far as I can tell, I don’t remmeber seeing a Rev. or a Most Rev. before the names of anyone who was responsible for Spirit and Song.

i wonder how OCP would react if someone were to send a couple of their more questionable hymnals to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments for their perusal? I’d love to be a fly in the wall as Cardinal Arinze is reading through it. Maybe that’s why Pope Benedict has pretty much put his own stamp on the music for World Youth Day.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Here is a good article that explains what the Church means when She says “actuosa participatio”:

Participation by Msgr. Richard Schuler

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Regrding OCP, I have yet to find the name of one priest (other than composters like Rev. RIcky Manolo, CSP and a couple of others) or one Ordinary or Metropolitan who has given some sort of textual approval to this company’s hymnals. As far as I can tell, I don’t remmeber seeing a Rev. or a Most Rev. before the names of anyone who was responsible for Spirit and Song.

I said it earlier, and I’ll say it again:

A group that publishes anything for liturgical use, be it hymnals, chant books, Sacramentaries, etc. - that group cannot model itself after a typical business model. They must (and this is absolutely imperative) model themselves on the model of an APOSTOLATE!

 

[Lepanto]

Hello,

I said it earlier, and I’ll say it again:

A group that publishes anything for liturgical use, be it hymnals, chant books, Sacramentaries, etc. - that group cannot model itself after a typical business model. They must (and this is absolutely imperative) model themselves on the model of an APOSTOLATE!

Very well stated.

OCP is a corporation, and just like any other company it needs cash flow to survive. It doesn’t matter if it’s a for-profit company or not, because cash flow is the life-blood of all businesses. Cash flow–if not profit-- is achieved by constantly churning out new products and incessantly peddling them.

That’s why, as stated on their website, “In November 2003, OCP launched spiritandsong.com™, a publishing division and website devoted to contemporary-style music and the artists who write and perform it.”

Can you imagine how long Ford would stay in business if it never came out with new cars?

 

[agapewolf]

As I have said in previous posts, it talks about how I’m doing all of this for God, litting His Name on hgh and singing of His love forever. It’s all praising and glorifying me! No wonder there is little substance to this stuff.

y.

I have had it with you bashing this.

First of all,

" I could sing of your love forever"…is a PSALM!!!

Look at Psalm 34:
*1
1 2 Of David, when he feigned madness before Abimelech, who forced him to depart.
2
I will bless the LORD at all times; praise shall be always in my mouth.
3
My soul will glory in the LORD that the poor may hear and be glad.
4
Magnify the LORD with me; let us exalt his name together.
5
I sought the LORD, who answered me, delivered me from all my fears.
6
Look to God that you may be radiant with joy and your faces may not blush for shame.
7
In my misfortune I called, the LORD heard and saved me from all distress. *

*Psalms 63:3-6
3 Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you. 4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands. 5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods; with singing lips my mouth will praise you. 6 On my bed I remember you; I think of you through the watches of the night. *

Look, I’m not saying every song in OCP hymnal is theologically correct, but the stuff you have been spewing out is not even based on anything truthful.

Any good lifeteen music program has moved on from the SPirit and song hymnals for the most part.

Spirit and song vol 1 is mostly catholic composers

You said earlier that they have little in common with catholic theology. NOT SO. some have a questionable WORD…some have a weird way of singing about a concept…I don’t think these should be put in the mass.

but honestly about 90-95% of the songs I get from CCLI (which is an all emcompasing praise and worship publishing license), there is nothing incompatible with Catholic doctrine.

And you keep saying that its all about me, yet these songs that mention “I” in them are often someone’s humble prayer put to music…mostly based on the example of the psalms.

It is extremly insulting to say that it is glorifying the self…when someone is singing the words “forever I could sing of your love”, they are quoting a psalm.

Mary herself in the magnificat said “My sould magnifies the Lord and I rejoice in God my savior”

Modeling prayers after the way Mary prayed is not glorifying the self. It is still glorifying God

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Hello,

We must understand that Mass is about God and not about us!

yes thats my whole point!
But unfortunately people think it’s more about them.
If you listen to most of Glory and Praise its community centered and less about God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

Indeed, we are all members of the Body of Christ - but the Church is not a democracy! We cannot vote truth into existence, as those who cry “We are Church!” erroneously presume. The Mass is not some weekly sing-a-long. It is the most august celebration of the Eucharist! It is where Heaven and earth meet - and it is a foretaste of our eternal reward. And I would shudder to think that eternity would be one big kumbya fest.

I never said the Church was a democracy, your jump to this line of argument, merely shows that you were wrong to attack me, because I stated, “We are the Church.”

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

We must understand that Mass is about God and not about us!

Its about both. Christ instituted the Eucharist, for us, to unite us to Himself who unites us with God.

The Mass is not intended to between individuals and God, but for a community gathered together in worship, to share love of God and for each other. The early Church, emphasis of love for each other, was as important as worship of God, because they took Jesus commandment, to love God and neighbor, seriously.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

No! The problem is that some people think that Mass is supposed to entertain them and give them a good “show”.

Thats their problem, which is just the opposite extreme from yours.

However, the majority of Catholics who attend Mass on a regular basis, do not go to be entertained.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello,

Here is a good article that explains what the Church means when She says “actuosa participatio”:

Participation by Msgr. Richard Schuler

From your article,

Pope Pius XI in his apostolic constitution, Divini cultus, wrote in 1928, that the restoration of Gregorian chant for the use of the people would provide the means whereby “the faithful may participate in divine worship more actively.” Such participation was to be achieved both by singing and by an appreciation of the beauty of the liturgy which stirs the heart of the worshiper, who thereby enters into the sacred mysteries.

When Pius XI wrote this, the Mass was still the TLM. There was no praise and worship music, because it wasn’t being written, for a Mass that was entirely in Latin.

Jump forward to Vatican II, which allowed for the vernacular and called for further active participation of which, singing by the faithful was as is considered a great importance. It is only natural, that hymns in the vernacular, would be written and accepted more fully by the faithful, than Gregorian Chant.

Once again, the USCCB, and the Vatican, have not ruled that only Gregorian Chant must be used.

The argument is lame, because the faithful have embraced Praise and Worship music to a greater degree than Gregorian Chant. The Bishops have not attempted to change this, by putting forth any mandates on liturgical music.

Again, until that happens, all those who are arguing against Praise and Worship music, ( please, stop interjecting your mis-characterization of “Wood Stock” type comments), will have to learn to live with it, or seek out Masses which suit your particular taste.

Meanwhile, the rest of us, will enjoy both Praise and Worship music at Mass, as well as Gregorian Chant.

Jim

 

[Eric_Olsen]

From your article,

The argument is lame, because the faithful have embraced Praise and Worship music to a greater degree than Gregorian Chant. The Bishops have not attempted to change this, by putting forth any mandates on liturgical music.

Jim

that’s because the majority of bishops ( a.k.a Mahony ) and discourage Gregorian chant and insist on the “praise and worship” music and other entertainment. That is why it is unfamiliar to allot of Catholics today.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

More from the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

Singing, is desired according to this document.

Also;

1. The typical edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; and a more critical edition is to be prepared of those books already published since the restoration by St. Pius X.

It is desirable also that an edition be prepared containing simpler melodies, for use in small churches.

In other words, a small parish isn’t required to have the elaborate melodies that are more practical in a Cathedral.

1. Religious singing by the people is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises, as also during liturgical services, the voices of the faithful may ring out according to the norms and requirements of the rubrics.

Here again, the Vatican II Document, is asking that the people sing.

The statement that singing by the faithful, was not sought by Vatican II is false, based on the words in the Constitution.

Jim

 

[Eric_Olsen]

I"We are the Church."

Jim

and theres part of the problem. It’s always “we” and not about Christ.
Last I was told it was “Christs church” and not ours.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Here again, the Vatican II Document, is asking that the people sing.

Jim

Singing was being encouraged before Vatican II.
Vatican II only continued it.

Pope Pius X, in his 1902 Encyclical motu proprio Tra le sollecitudini wrote the following:

" It is with real satisfaction that We acknowledge the large amount of good that has been effected in this respect during the last decade in this Our fostering city of Rome, and in many churches in Our country, but in a more especial way among some nations in which illustrious men, full of zeal for the worship of God, have, with the approval of the Holy See and under the direction of the Bishops, united in flourishing Societies and restored sacred music to the fullest honor in all their churches and chapels. Still the good work that has been done is very far indeed from being common to all, and when We consult Our own personal experience and take into account the great number of complaints that have reached Us during the short time that has elapsed since it pleased the Lord to elevate Our humility to the supreme summit of the Roman Pontificate, We consider it Our first duty, without further delay, to raise Our voice at once in reproof and condemnation of all that is seen to be out of harmony with the right rule above indicated, in the functions of public worship and in the performance of the ecclesiastical offices. Filled as We are with a most ardent desire to see the true Christian spirit flourish in every respect and be preserved by all the faithful, We deem it necessary to provide before anything else for the sanctity and dignity of the temple, in which the faithful assemble for no other object than that of acquiring this spirit from its foremost and indispensable font, which is the active participation in the most holy mysteries and in the public and solemn prayer of the Church. And it is vain to hope that the blessing of heaven will descend abundantly upon us, when our homage to the Most High, instead of ascending in the odor of sweetness, puts into the hand of the Lord the scourges wherewith of old the Divine Redeemer drove the unworthy profaners from the Temple."

Pope Pius XI explained it as well in his 1928 Encyclical Divini Cultus:

" The faithful come to church in order to derive piety from its chief source, by taking an active part in the venerated mysteries and the public solemn prayers of the Church. It is of the utmost importance, therefore, that anything that is used to adorn the Liturgy should be controlled by the Church, so that the arts may take their proper place as most noble ministers in sacred worship. …** In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it.** It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies, or when pious sodalities take part with the clergy in a procession, they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the Liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed. If this is done, then it will no longer happen that the people either make no answer at all to the public prayers – whether in the language of the Liturgy or in the vernacular – or at best utter the responses in a low and subdued manner."

Pope Pius XII went further in his 1947 Encyclical Mediator Dei, especially in paragraphs 78-111.

 

[Phemie]

More from the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy

Singing, is desired according to this document.

Also;

In other words, a small parish isn’t required to have the elaborate melodies that are more practical in a Cathedral.

Here again, the Vatican II Document, is asking that the people sing.

The statement that singing by the faithful, was not sought by Vatican II is false, based on the words in the Constitution.

Jim

The Church gave us Jubilate Deo, the simple chant Mass that is accessible to any parish. The singing spoken of in the CSL is the Ordinary of the Mass, the most important singing involved in the Liturgy. This is made clear by Musicam Sacram which was promulgated after the CSL.