Praise Music Sounding Secular

[snhs]

Rock music is not bad. Check out Oremus, a good Catholic rock band. You are judging a genre of music by what most of it is and I don’t think that’s right. As I said before, music is a gift from God, yes a lot of music has been distorted by Satan and the world but NOT ALL OF IT!! Forgive me if I’m wrong here, but it seems to me that you are being very judgmental of a genre of music without even knowing enough about it to make a judgment. I just don’t think that’s right, and I’m not saying I know everything about rock, because I don’t, but I think I know enough about rock to say that it’s not ALL bad. I agree that some of it is bad, but not all of it.
Check out this article as well.
I do agree with you that it doesn’t belong in the Mass at all.

JMJ+
~Betsy

Totus tuus Maria!

What do you think needs to be known? If the majority of something is bad, corrupted or diseased then perhaps it’s about time people started questioning what is it about the genre itself which has attracted such things. Often it is better to amputate and salvage what can be saved rather than fighting a losing battle against the poison. No one is trying to say that before rock music everything was perfect, what we can say though is that much of rock music is problematic, specifically for the Liturgical context, just look at the quote Benedictgal provided earlier from Pope Benedict.

These arguments come up time and time again, I stopped posting some time ago but it’s clear from this thread that very little has changed. To be perfectly honest I don’t think anything the Pope, any Bishop or group of Bishops says is going to change the mind of some people who are quite clearly content wallowing in the dreck to which they are so accustomed. If they anathema certain genres of music then suddenly we will hear ‘Oh, but that isn’t x, no thats y’ or whatever other subgenre they create to suit their conveniece. Even were songs to be banned by name I see very little cause for hope, no doubt it will only be a certain arrangment with which the Church had a problem.

What I will say is that if people cannot make an argument about what music is or isn’t appropriate for Catholic Liturgy based on what the Pope, Bishops and the Church have said, and instead find themselves resorting to the same, tired, cliched attacks on the Traditional Liturgy of the Church, which simply sustains the hermeneutic of rupture which Pope Benedict is working against, and continual parrotting about what Protestant groups do then I don’t think they have a leg to stand on.

Never mind the 80s, far too much of the music pedalled in Catholic Churches is from the sixties, coincidentally the same generation as the people who so often ‘coordinate’ the ‘youth’ music and attend the ‘youth’ Masses. I put forward a study here some time ago which showed that the majority of young people, of all creeds and none, saw a clear distinction between what music was most appropiate for the Mass and what was not. What was secular and what was not. Regardless of what they went home listening to in the car or during their private prayer, most realised that at such a time it was not all equal. The Church cannot and should not try to compete with the Megachurches on who can get the best beat, loudest music, or ‘hippest’ tunes because there is the simple fact that inevitably it will either lose or individual parishes will themselves go over to the very protestantised theology they were intended to compete against. It is worth remembering that ‘the Devil has the best tunes’, and the Devil’s interests are very seldom served by drawing people into the Church.

If you are advocating a lifestyle which is countercultural, as the Church does, then you do not win people over to it if the first thing you do is cave into the very culture you are combating. It has been one of the great divinding line throughout the history of music that there is Church Music and secular music, they can and frequently do interact, but if we reach the stage where the only difference between what we hear at bars, nights out or dance halls and during the Mass is the lyrics then there is a fairly serious problem. There is a reason the Church has said that Chant should have pride of place, and not made mention of drumkits or guitars, rather than seeing the lack of an out and out condemnation as confirmation why not try following the Church’s stated desires and read between the lines.

 

[Layman]

Well, I’m glad you agree that rock music doesn’t belong in the Mass. I used to be a rock musician. I have played it, I have composed it, and I have judged it.

It’s fun, but it’s no basis for a philosophy. Or a lifestyle. It’s nursery rhymes for adults.

**One insidious thing about it: you find it repeating in your head. So it’s a good propaganda tool, but not so good for someone wanting to avoid sinning by word or thought or filling their subconscious (heart) with dubious ideas. You could be humming along to God-knows-what.

Solution: replace the original lyrics in your head with pious ones.**

 

[Sarabande]

4/4 time isn’t suitable for religious worship. If you try to imagine what the Seraphim might sound like, circling the Throne of the Almighty, Gregorian chant comes to mind. Not “Twist and Shout”.

Ok… I am totally of the thought processes that rock n’ roll type of music is not suitable for mass because the style is too secular. But… “4/4 time isn’t suitable for religious worship”?

Do you know how many sacred works from the early Renaissance to the traditional hymns are in 4/4 meter? I’ve sung in many a choir for mass which sings polyphony to Tallis, Victoria, Byrd, etc. and to the typical traditional 4 part hymns - many of which was written in 4/4 - duple meter. Some are written in triple meter and even others have been written in the compound duple and compound triple meters. All of these works are such which has been appropriate for mass and approved by the Church.

I think it’s more of the genre or style of music rather than the actual meter of music. All music has a meter - even chant although it’s much more free-er of a meter than in other versions of western music, which most of the Church’s music is written in with the western scale and music theory.

 

[GilChrist77]

What do you think needs to be known? If the majority of something is bad, corrupted or diseased then perhaps it’s about time people started questioning what is it about the genre itself which has attracted such things. Often it is better to amputate and salvage what can be saved rather than fighting a losing battle against the poison. No one is trying to say that before rock music everything was perfect, what we can say though is that much of rock music is problematic, specifically for the Liturgical context, just look at the quote Benedictgal provided earlier from Pope Benedict.

These arguments come up time and time again, I stopped posting some time ago but it’s clear from this thread that very little has changed. To be perfectly honest I don’t think anything the Pope, any Bishop or group of Bishops says is going to change the mind of some people who are quite clearly content wallowing in the dreck to which they are so accustomed. If they anathema certain genres of music then suddenly we will hear ‘Oh, but that isn’t x, no thats y’ or whatever other subgenre they create to suit their conveniece. Even were songs to be banned by name I see very little cause for hope, no doubt it will only be a certain arrangment with which the Church had a problem.

What I will say is that if people cannot make an argument about what music is or isn’t appropriate for Catholic Liturgy based on what the Pope, Bishops and the Church have said, and instead find themselves resorting to the same, tired, cliched attacks on the Traditional Liturgy of the Church, which simply sustains the hermeneutic of rupture which Pope Benedict is working against, and continual parrotting about what Protestant groups do then I don’t think they have a leg to stand on.

Never mind the 80s, far too much of the music pedalled in Catholic Churches is from the sixties, coincidentally the same generation as the people who so often ‘coordinate’ the ‘youth’ music and attend the ‘youth’ Masses. I put forward a study here some time ago which showed that the majority of young people, of all creeds and none, saw a clear distinction between what music was most appropiate for the Mass and what was not. What was secular and what was not. Regardless of what they went home listening to in the car or during their private prayer, most realised that at such a time it was not all equal. The Church cannot and should not try to compete with the Megachurches on who can get the best beat, loudest music, or ‘hippest’ tunes because there is the simple fact that inevitably it will either lose or individual parishes will themselves go over to the very protestantised theology they were intended to compete against. It is worth remembering that ‘the Devil has the best tunes’, and the Devil’s interests are very seldom served by drawing people into the Church.

If you are advocating a lifestyle which is countercultural, as the Church does, then you do not win people over to it if the first thing you do is cave into the very culture you are combating. It has been one of the great divinding line throughout the history of music that there is Church Music and secular music, they can and frequently do interact, but if we reach the stage where the only difference between what we hear at bars, nights out or dance halls and during the Mass is the lyrics then there is a fairly serious problem. There is a reason the Church has said that Chant should have pride of place, and not made mention of drumkits or guitars, rather than seeing the lack of an out and out condemnation as confirmation why not try following the Church’s stated desires and read between the lines.

I’m sorry, I must have misunderstood you. I don’t think it belongs in the Mass either. I thought you meant just in general. I agree 100% that it in no way shape or form belongs in the Mass, I do think it’s okay to listen to Christian rock because you enjoy the beat and the rythm because as I keep pointing out, there’s nothing wrong with the music in of it’s self, the problem is with some of the lyrics that are out there.

JMJ+
~Betsy

Totus tuus Maria!

 

[Th0t]

I agree with u, we do not use headphones in our prayer group when we play, thank you for helping me realize that part. And it is true that drums aren’t made for a church.

So any documents on what is allowed in Holy Mass as to say about music?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Yup.

Rock music is sex music. First you start dancin’ vertically and then you start dancin’ horizontally. It’s part of the mating rituals of the West. Go to a club, have a few beers, meet a girl, have a dance, then back to her place or yours.

4/4 time isn’t suitable for religious worship. If you try to imagine what the Seraphim might sound like, circling the Throne of the Almighty, Gregorian chant comes to mind. Not “Twist and Shout”.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_and_roll

Wow! Are you serious! You sound like a Southern Baptist who thinks its morally wrong to be in the same zipcode as a member of the other gender.

There is nothing inherently fornication inducing about rock music. No more than jazz music is inherent to cafe yuppies or traditional Indian music (sitar) is inherent to making a person a pothead. Such broad generalizations are usually quite inaccurate and in this case down-right ridiculous.

4/4 time isn’t suitable for religious worship.

You’ve got to be joking. This has got to rank up with one of the most mind-numbingly ridiculous things I’ve ever seen on these forums.

 

[Layman]

Errrr… didn’t you read that article?

Rock has its origins in nightclubs; ‘honky tonk’ music. It’s always been about sex, when it’s not been extolling the benefits of narcissism, sentimentality, pride, greed, violence, drug-taking and other fun stuff. Sometimes, it’s just nonsense set to music; nursery rhymes for adults.

Heh, heh, just look at any Top 30 countdown on TV, these days. Stand back from it. Just what is being promoted via pop music? Piety, faith, hope and charity?

Funny how the ladies seem to need to take their clothes off to help sell records. I’m sure glad Bruce Springsteen didn’t go down this road [heh, heh].

Well, saying 4/4 time is bad for religious music may be going too far. However, whenever I tried to write religious songs to a rock rhythm, it didn’t work. Suit the tool to the job. Shoe-horning folk or rock styles into a Mass is like singing the Sanctus in a nightclub.

Still, it helps in one respect.

If you go to Mass in a new parish, enter the church and see a band up near the altar, (or even in the sanctuary), you can turn on your heel and try to find a more traditional Mass. Saves time.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Heh, heh, just look at any Top 30 countdown on TV, these days. Just what is being promoted via pop music? Piety, faith, hope and charity?

More like pride, lust, greed, nihilism, narcissism etc.

Funny how the ladies seem to need to take their clothes off to help sell records. I’m sure glad Bruce Springsteen didn’t go down this road [heh, heh].

I can give you examples of older pop music (Sinatra, etc.) that can have lyrics that aren’t exactly exemplars of Christian piety. Some of the early rock music was actually pretty wholesome in their lyrics. And have you ever read the librettos of some operas – some are pretty lurid. Even the Bible has made use of some hot prose and poetry.

The fact that absolutely everyone seems the need to use sex to sell anything these days doesn’t prove what you’re saying. Yogurt, beer, internet services, auto insurance, etc. all use impure advertising methods.

Well, saying 4/4 time is bad for religious music may be going too far. However, whenever I tried to write a religious song to a rock rhythm, it didn’t work. Suit the tool to the job. Shoe-horning folk or rock styles into a Mass is like singing the Sanctus in a nightclub.

Classical composers were writing the great tunes of history long before rock was a twinkle in anyones eye. I’m currently working on a concerto by Vivaldi that was written ~250 years before the first rock song – and it is in 4/4 time. 4/4 time is called common for a reason!

 

[Sarabande]

Well, saying 4/4 time is bad for religious music may be going too far. However, whenever I tried to write religious songs to a rock rhythm, it didn’t work. Suit the tool to the job. Shoe-horning folk or rock styles into a Mass is like singing the Sanctus in a nightclub.

I think you were confusing meter with style. I will repeat what I wrote in my previous post:

Do you know how many sacred works from the early Renaissance to the traditional hymns are in 4/4 meter? I’ve sung in many a choir for mass which sings polyphony to Tallis, Victoria, Byrd, etc. and to the typical traditional 4 part hymns - many of which was written in 4/4 - duple meter. Some are written in triple meter and even others have been written in the compound duple and compound triple meters. All of these works are such which has been appropriate for mass and approved by the Church.

I think it’s more of the genre or style of music rather than the actual meter of music. All music has a meter - even chant although it’s much more free-er of a meter than in other versions of western music, which most of the Church’s music is written in with the western scale and music theory.

Again ALL music has a meter - much of classical and classical sacred music uses 4/4 time signature ie. common time. Any trained musician knows this. What you are describing is writing in a certain genre of music that uses 4/4 meter. It’s not necessarily the meter but the style.

In regards to “rock music is sex music”, it reminds me of what people said of polyphony when it first came into being. Many people believed that was “sex music” as well. It was called “liscivious”, “inciting lust” and all that by contemporaries of the time. There are letters written regarding the court of Eleanor of Aquitaine and these letters specifically signal out the new music of polyphony of the time using words like above to describe it. That said, the composers of that time had to do much to refine the style in order for it to be accepted into mass and now it is held in high esteem by the church. It does sound different from some secular polyphony that was written around the same time.

 

[Sarabande]

I can give you examples of older pop music (Sinatra, etc.) that can have lyrics that aren’t exactly exemplars of Christian piety. Some of the early rock music was actually pretty wholesome in their lyrics. And have you ever read the librettos of some operas – some are pretty lurid. Even the Bible has made use of some hot prose and poetry.

The fact that absolutely everyone seems the need to use sex to sell anything these days doesn’t prove what you’re saying. Yogurt, beer, internet services, auto insurance, etc. all use impure advertising methods.

Classical composers were writing the great tunes of history long before rock was a twinkle in anyones eye. I’m currently working on a concerto by Vivaldi that was written ~250 years before the first rock song – and it is in 4/4 time. 4/4 time is called common for a reason!

The more I read about history, the more I see that people and times haven’t changed, just the clothing styles, technology and hygiene. There have always been “pure” and “good” things to use and aspire to and always fairly raunchy and sexually explicit things. It is human nature to want to believe that all this bad stuff is new. We want to believe that in the past people were purer, but if you read what the common person throughout the various centuries would be exposed to, some of it was even more explicit than what you see today. The popular music from various times, for example. I have some recordings of “bawdy” songs from the Tudor period - the popular, low-type of music that would be sung in pubs or even for entertaintment. Now, there are definitely some really raunchy things being said. Some of it is disguised, like using a mop head and a stick to refer to parts of the anatomy and such, a cute-sounding song that just sounds like it is referring to a nightingale loving to be against a prickle, but in actuality is referring to a lady of the night loving something more than just being up against a prickle.

Of course, the Church has always been aware of this and have worked to keep the style of the popular music of the time out of the mass. Only when it could be “refined” - a very important word, could it be accepted.

To me, the idea of common time being referred to something that shouldn’t be used for sacred music sounds almost like when people (including the Church) believed that the tri-tone was the “devil’s chord” until the Church realized how silly and ridiculous that was.

 

[LouisH]

In my parish we regularly sing a hymn to the tune of Austria. There is nothing wrong with the words of the hymn but the tune is also the tune to Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles. Hearing it brings up images of Nazis. Perhaps the younger people don’t realize this. Of course, it is not as bad as the time we sang the “Our Father” sung to the tune of “Old MacDonald Had a Farm.”

 

[Sarabande]

In my parish we regularly sing a hymn to the tune of Austria. There is nothing wrong with the words of the hymn but the tune is also the tune to Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles. Hearing it brings up images of Nazis. Perhaps the younger people don’t realize this. Of course, it is not as bad as the time we sang the “Our Father” sung to the tune of “Old MacDonald Had a Farm.”

Actually the text “Deutschland, uber Alles” (which was written in the 1920s) was set to the melody by Franz Joseph Haydn (who was around in the 18th century) which he used for a hymn anthem in honour of Francis II who was the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. It was called the Emperor’s Hymn. Although it also became Austria’s unofficial national anthem. He later used the melody and variations on the hymn melody in his Quartet in C. Major (also known as the “Kaiserquartett” or “Emperor Quartet”. The melody itself has been used for other text - including various hymns and songs. You can hear it as in the quartet.

youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs24NJgfI&feature=fvw

As a side note: Although some people of a certain era, understandably so, may equate the Deutschlandlied (which is still the official national anthem in Germany and sung proudly by my very good German friend who lost half of his family to the Nazis due to the fact they had Jewish blood even though they were actually practicing Catholics at the time) with the Nazis and WWII, it should be remembered that this was their National Anthem before Hitler and the Nazi party took over. It just unfortunately was tainted by that horrible period in their history.

 

[baker7805]

To me, it is not so much the instrumentation, the melody, or the rhythm of the music as it is what is in the hearts of the musicians. I have found that music in the popular genre results in the musicians thinking more as performers rather than as ministers. They are more concerned with the trappings of their art than they are the celebration of the Eucharist. That is not to say that more “traditional” choirs and cantors are not guilty of the same thing, just that the closer the music comes to what is “popular”, the more likely it is to occur.

 

[Cat]

To me, it is not so much the instrumentation, the melody, or the rhythm of the music as it is what is in the hearts of the musicians. I have found that music in the popular genre results in the musicians thinking more as performers rather than as ministers. They are more concerned with the trappings of their art than they are the celebration of the Eucharist. That is not to say that more “traditional” choirs and cantors are not guilty of the same thing, just that the closer the music comes to what is “popular”, the more likely it is to occur.

I really don’t agree with this. Unless you are capable of knowing a person’s heart, you cannot make this statement.

I do think that many musicians in all genres tend to act like it is a performance, but not because we are thinking about ourselves or “doing a show” or a “gig.” We just want to do our best for the Lord and His people, and in order to do that, we have to practice and prepare. We are thinking “technical” because that’s what musicians do–music is a very technical activity. It doesn’t just happen. We have to make sure everything is in order.

In order to play the piano, I have to have my music ready and in order, and that means arriving early and lining everything up in such a way that I can retrieve it quickly and as noiselessly as possible. We worry about sound systems and do sound checks and microphone taps and speaker adjustments. We run through songs quietly–in my case, I do this to make CERTAIN that all the pages are there and IN ORDER–every once in a while, a hymn in the loose-leaf hymnal has been put back incorrectly, and the last half of the hymn is missing–yikes! (I’m not an ad libber.) We check our lights, make sure our bench or seat is in a good position, put our Kleenex or water bottle nearby. .

Etc. etc.

All of these things make it LOOK like we’re thinking “performance,” and perhaps we are to the extent that we are thinking about the technique required. While Father is praying, I am not only praying along with him, but making sure that I have the Sanctus ready to go so that when he says, “We join with all the angels in their song of praise,” I am ready to start playing! It’s disruptive to the flow of Mass and the spirit of worship in the Mass when I am fumbling with my music or if I start playing the wrong song.

All this technical prep doesn’t mean we are not thinking about Jesus and worshipping him through our music. Music doesn’t just happen. It requires preparation. It’s not some ethereal spiritual emoting miracle that just flows out of us without any effort. We are worshipping, but we are also working. It’s not quite the same as “performance.”

 

[NDN]

This is why the choir should not be up next to the altar and tabernacle. This distracts people from worship. With the PA systems we have these days, the choir can easily lead the faithful in song from a less conspicuous position in church…Pax Christi

 

[agapewolf]

This is why the choir should not be up next to the altar and tabernacle. This distracts people from worship. With the PA systems we have these days, the choir can easily lead the faithful in song from a less conspicuous position in church…Pax Christi

I disagree. People dont sing along when I am in the back. When I’m towards the front/side area I can lead people in sung prayer better.

I also have a huge problem when people equate drums with “performance” or “concert”. One might not think drums fit in church, thats fine. But do not accuse a drummer in church of having a performer attitude or wanting to put on a show. There may be some, sure. But, In fact, all of the church drummers that I know in my area are of the most humble musicians, much more so that many choir members.

 

[NDN]

Drums definately do not belong at Mass. The altar and Tabernacle are holy and having a concert going on along side the Holy Sacrifice seems profane to me.

 

[agapewolf]

Drums definately do not belong at Mass. The altar and Tabernacle are holy and having a concert going on along side the Holy Sacrifice seems profane to me.

Youve proven my point. You can believe drums don’t belong fine. But do NOT equate having drums with a “concert”. They are 2 seperate and totally different things.

 

[NDN]

It is not just the drums, which are out of place at Mass. It is the trend to move the choir up to the same level as the altar. Having sound systems and synthesizers and other musical equipment competeing with the Priest and the Eucharist is profane, and doesn’t belong in the holy place

 

[agapewolf]

It is not just the drums, which are out of place at Mass. It is the trend to move the choir up to the same level as the altar. Having sound systems and synthesizers and other musical equipment competeing with the Priest and the Eucharist is profane, and doesn’t belong in the holy place

This doesn’t have anything to do with my point about the drums.

But having “sound systems” is a good thing. People can actually hear the priest and the word of God.

Having the music leaders near the front is not equating or competing with the Priest and the Eucharist. As I stated before, people sing better when I am near the side of the altar. I am Aiding in the prayer, not competing.