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Catholic29
Guest
Needless to say both are a SIN. And there is irrefutable biblical evidence to back up that claim.
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Libero
Guest
Only homosexual acts are the sin, and really even the bible does not claim that, as we see no passages mentioning lesbians in the bible, that is half of the entire homosexual orientation, and only gay men are mentioned.
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JB
Guest
I disagree.
Romans 1:21-27:
The word lesbian is not used of course, but verse 26 speaks of females practicing unnatural relations. Some might argue that the nature of the unnatural relations (no pun intended) is not defined, but the following verse mentions males doing shameful things with other males. This is compared to the previously mentioned unnatural female relations through the word “likewise”.
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Libero
Guest
JB.:
Further, how do we know that the translation is correct? Also, the very context seems strange, it implies God almost changed them “God handed them over” did he? This sounds like another passage where God supposedly uses homosexuality as a strange sort of punishment.
I remain unsure, this is so vague. Homosexuality is perhaps the most controversial topic in Christianity today, and all we have is “swapped relations” what is that meant to mean?
Further, how do we know that the translation is correct? Also, the very context seems strange, it implies God almost changed them “God handed them over” did he? This sounds like another passage where God supposedly uses homosexuality as a strange sort of punishment.
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shs-aod
Guest
…and, your point?
Has it ever occurred to you that there may be non-Catholics or non-Christians attending DePaul?
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irenaeus1
Guest
Oh that’s right… so even if we had a biblical passage that met your criteria as being sufficiently explicit, you could always resort to the excuse that we don’t know whether the translation is accurate or not. Rather convenient.
BTW, are you opposed to male homosexuality since this is explicitly condemned in scripture? Based on your track record on these threads, I suspect not.
In Christ,
Ireneaus
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Libero
Guest
Is it explicitly condemned in scripture? I think not…
Depends on your own interpretation, I have looked into the topic to some extent, but I am not making absolute ideas until I have studied it at University (hopefully).
Your still in Christ eh? Hmmm…
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irenaeus1
Guest
It absolutely does not depend on my own interpretation - nor yours for that matter. It depends on the teaching authority of the Church in accord with apostolic tradition. That’s how I can know that it is explicitly condemned in Scripture.
Yes… I am still in Christ, which is why I’m defending His truth as proclaimed by His Church.
In Christ,
Irenaeus
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Libero
Guest
Actually it isn’t Christ’s truth, you may notice that he has never mentioned the topic.
Besides that, it does matter on my own interpretation, I seek knowledge, I have no other strength than my mind, I want to reach my own informed viewpoint, not merely be told what to think by a church, which has proven to be corrupt, a church that is overwhelmingly arrogant (if we are honest with ourselves) blind faith is something I admire, but not a component of myself, I do not reach decisions by blind faith.
Question: Have you taken the time out to study the Theological arguments about homosexuality, taking into account both arguments with an open mind? If not, I suggest you do!
In the spirit of seeking an understanding,
Libero.
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irenaeus1
Guest
Which begs the question (as has been asked of you on other threads) why you would want to be a member of such a church?
In Christ,
Irenaeus
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irenaeus1
Guest
I have indeed studied the theological arguments about homosexuality. I have heard the arguments from the side of Dignity and Andrew Sullivan, and even engaged in e-mail dialogue with a member of the Rainbow Sash Movement in Australia, but the arguments they propose in support of their position are weak and self-serving, and is readily apparent that it is only to justify their lifestyle. Many of their arguments, if they were actually valid, could be used to justify adultery, fornication, pornography, or any other sexual immorality.
And yes, it is Christ’s truth - Jesus did not explicitly mention abortion, incest or bestiality either, so are we to assume that he approved them?
In Christ,
Ireaneus
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Libero
Guest
Well, first off, good for you, but did you remain open minded, I hope you did, more for your sake. Secondly, whilst Jesus did not mention incest or bestiality, we can really relate to the supposed “natural law” for codemning these, second, abortion is explicitly condemned in the ten commandments, thirdly, bearing in mind homosexuality is the most controversial topic in modern day Christianity (incest and bestiality are most definitely not) do you not consider it somewhat strange that Jesus did not mention the topic at all - I really do
Finally, I really do not want to say what is Christs truth, in Islam if one tries to define God by themselves without an ecumenical agreement and being capable of supporting their argument, they would be accused of ‘Zana’ which is exactly what I feel trying to say what I believe Christ’s truth to be is, I am no authority to excalim such a thing.
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frommi
Guest
You know…the homosexuality debate has raged throughout these forums several times…
The controversy of the topic is a given.
That being said…this thread is about whether or not a school that self-identifies as Catholic, and is run by a Catholic order, should have an academic program that explores this debate, and if they have such a program, what obligation does that program have to promote Catholic teaching on the issue.
The controversy of the topic is a given.
That being said…this thread is about whether or not a school that self-identifies as Catholic, and is run by a Catholic order, should have an academic program that explores this debate, and if they have such a program, what obligation does that program have to promote Catholic teaching on the issue.
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Libero
Guest
I dont think they have a very strong obligation really, I mean the topic is GLBT studies, if you attempt to include a strong Catholic viewpoint into it, then you are simply going to contradict yourself, it would turn into a brawl between the two topics, and really after a while it would just be a state of condemning homosexuality.
A good idea would be to encourage students to sign a statement in which they acknowldge and respect the teachings of the church, because, lets face it, there is very little chance that the words of a church are going to change a ‘gay friendly’ adult at a university, who has chosen to study GLBT studies…
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irenaeus1
Guest
This is a rather myopic point of view - you act as though the Church only appeared on the scene around sometime in the twentieth century. Homosexuality has only been a controversial topic in recent history. It was not a controversial topic for the previous nineteen and a half centuries, especially in Christian circles. Also, if you measure the lack of certainty with which an issue can be proclaimed as true by the amount of controversy surrounding the issue, then why do you accept that abortion is wrong? Abortion has been extremely controversial, and statistically, there have been more people who have accepted the moral licitness of abortion than have accepted homosexuality.Well, first off, good for you, but did you remain open minded, I hope you did, more for your sake. Secondly, whilst Jesus did not mention incest or bestiality, we can really relate to the supposed “natural law” for codemning these, second, abortion is explicitly condemned in the ten commandments, thirdly, bearing in mind homosexuality is the most controversial topic in modern day Christianity (incest and bestiality are most definitely not) do you not consider it somewhat strange that Jesus did not mention the topic at all - I really do
So, according to this reasoning, no one can know what Christ’s truth is? I beg to differ. And I am not relying upon blind faith as you stated in a previous post. I do not simply believe that the Catholic Church proclaims the truth because I am Catholic. I am Catholic because I believe that the Catholic Church proclaims the truth. And this should not surprise you any more than a person who is convinced that Islam is true and decides to practice Islam is considered a Muslim.Finally, I really do not want to say what is Christs truth, in Islam if one tries to define God by themselves without an ecumenical agreement and being capable of supporting their argument, they would be accused of ‘Zana’ which is exactly what I feel trying to say what I believe Christ’s truth to be is, I am no authority to excalim such a thing.
In Christ,
Irenaeus
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Libero
Guest
Well, first, you may note that I said homosexuality was perhaps the most controversial topic in modern day Christianity. In saying this is am not denying that it has been controversial before, but I do not believe it was the most controversial. I believe that contraception, the Immaculate conception, conflicting science and religious beliefs, the crusades were more/ if not at least equally controversial throughout history.
And yes, I stand by my comment that no one can claim to know Jesus, to say that puts an awful lot of authority in one self. In trying to claim that the church is right, I am unsure, I will not state explicitly either way, if you study at depth Christian Scripture and its history, then that may become more apparent. I also do not believe the church is definitely correct, because it is made up of humans, and to claim we know the truth in regards to God is to give ourselves a ‘divine’ or ‘perfect’ status, which non of us have. We are simple beings…
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Goldy
Guest
Two summers ago, I took a course on human sexuality at my local college to go toward my degree in health education. On one of the days, the teacher brought in a panel of her homosexual friends (I found out that day my teacher was a lesbian also). I, along with another Protestant student, felt like the sacrificial lambs as we were the only ones who spoke out against their lifestyles. Speaking from my experience with that class, I realized that there was definitely a “gay agenda” happening on that campus. The entire discussion that day focused on how gays have no rights, they’re misunderstood, etc. To put it all in perspective, the human sexuality textbook contained drawings of sexual positions for both heterosexuals and homosexuals. Needless to say, I threw it away. Libero, these classes aren’t intended to educate people. They push an agenda. They’re designed to gain tolerance and acceptance of a lifestyle that is immoral. Now, you may THINK they are educational because that is their intent. I mean seriously, do you really think anyone would be interested in these classes if they marketed the class as a ploy to gain acceptance of gays and lesbians?
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iserve
Guest
This is all smoke and mirrors. As long as this subject remains “under reveiw” there is opportunity to say that the jury is out. When there was a time that the question was moot, no one was doing “studies”. The same goes for all human sexuality, and I daresay that very little has come out of looking at the subject through a microscope for some 50 years. After all that, Catholic morality has remained a stable and reliable tool for a life lived near and dear to God. Others who care to disagree can find this in the secular arena in abundance. Catholics who care will not send their kids, nor will they financially support institutions calling themselves Catholic before weighing issues like this. The only viable counter-attack is to shake their dust from our shoes and find the real thing elsewhere.
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irenaeus1
Guest
Actually, you did not say homosexuality was perhaps the most controversial, but this is irrelevent. The point I was making was that you appear to make an issue of controversy pointing to uncertainty in a truth. And I claimed that this is not necessarily so, and wondered how you could, for example, come to the conclusion that abortion is wrong since there is obviously as much controversy (if not more) surrounding the issue of abortion. You claim that it’s obvious since ‘Thou shall not kill,’ but clearly it must not be that obvious to others, else there would be no controversy over the topic. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that abortion is wrong. I’m just curious why you aren’t consistent in following your same logic for the issue of homosexuality.
As demonstrated on a number of threads, you seem to arbitrarily pick and choose your beliefs. You discount the Church because its made up of humans, yet you accept your own judgment (and you are a human being), so how do you come to the conclusion that you are correct. Also, as you have pointed out on other threads, you have a problem with scripture. Well, at least you are consistent in your reasoning here - since scripture was written by humans. Yet you like to point out that Jesus never spoke explicitly regarding homosexuality (according to scripture of course). So you appeal to the very same scriptures that you claim that you cannot completely rely upon with any moral certitude because of human corruption or poor translations. Again you evade the question: why are you willfully a member of such a deceitful and corrupt organization?
In Christ,
Irenaeus
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irenaeus1
Guest
The gospel according to Libero - I stand by my comment that no one can claim to know Jesus.
The gospel according to St. John - Jesus said, “I know my sheep, and my sheep know me.” (Jn 10:14)
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (Jn 17:3)
It seems that a person can know Jesus and it has nothing to do with authority in oneself.
The gospel writer also wrote in his epistle:
“This is how we know we are in Him” (I Jn 2:5)
“In this we know that we are of the truth…” (I Jn 3:19a)
“And he who keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And in this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.” (I Jn 3:24)
Apparently, we can have confidence and know much, but it does not rest on self-authority or arrogance.
In Christ,
Irenaeus
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