Pray for Notre Dame -- Moral Chaos sweeps campus

[TomK]

As a Brigham Young University alumnus, I would like to share the insights I gained.

Firstly, BYU (at the time I attended) is an extremely orthodox campus. Many of the social/sexual aberrations described at Notre Dame would have resulted with expulsion.

Some of the ND student descriptions of the need to choose between right and wrong were right. The students grew up so protected from the wrong, that when they grew up, graduated and were recruited for jobs in the “real world,” many of them ran back to Utah. By the time I left BYU, recruiters were becoming more reluctant to sign “Zoobies” because of the track record of quitting to run back to the protection of Utah.

I had a friend who attended Ricks College (the LDS Junior College at the time), she complained that BYU was “too worldly.” In this case, the VERY protective environment was provided by a small, very controlling JC with a slightly “looser” envirnment offered at the university.

I agree that if a university is seeking donations from the faithful, that it should live up to the ideals of the faith. As a new Catholic, I would suspect that most Catholic children have had enough of the “real world” growing up that some retraining in a supportive, protected environment might not be such a bad idea.

I really can’t see sending my daughter to Notre Dame.

 

[Zahmir]

The University of Notre Dame is not going to heaven or hell. The students that go there are. If you say that Notre Dame doesn’t provide ways to be a good Catholic, you are wrong. Whether or not you choose to go, or send your child there, is up to you, but you are missing out on a valuable education. While there may be some liberal professors up here, there are very conservative Catholic professors, also.

Let’s put it this way. I strongly believe that I can live out my faith better up here at Notre Dame, than I could at any other college or university. The basilica… Mass in dorms, the Grotto, retreats, Campus Ministry, social/service clubs… Notre Dame offers more for Catholics. Not only that, but very important, prominent people will come to Notre Dame.

(At the two day inauguration of Father Jenkins (our new president of the University) there was an “academic forum” in which the imam of a mosque near Ground Zero, an Archbishop from Honduras, Danforth, and a member of the Knesset in Israel all came to talk about the role of religion in the world and some conflicts. It was a very enlightening experience. )

I understand that most of the arguments here have been attacking a bad side of Notre Dame, but let’s look at the good that it, in fact, offers. Notre Dame is not a bad place to be.

 

[Rach620]

JSmitty2005:

I don’t see why you would encourage people to be proud of a psychological disorder like homophilia. Following that line of reasoning, I suppose we should promote pride for other so-called “sexual orientations” like these:

Wasn’t that list a bit… unnecessary in it’s explicity?

But answering your argument here… I believe there is a difference between encouraging someone to be proud of their sexual orientation and saying that it’s okay not to consider themselves “evil” for an orientation which they cannot control, which is what I believe Zahmir is saying. There is a fine line where this expression crosses into inappropriate, a line which I feel many of those who wear the shirts cross, however. We should not have “pride” for living a sinful lifestyle–for acting on homosexual attractions. But at the same time, we must love those who are homosexually oriented.

it’s a completely secularized college that happens to have been catholic at one time. i would say most catholic colleges are in the same boat so it is not as if we are picking on notre dame.

Please see my earlier post. You have no proof that ND is a “completely secularized college”… really, come see the spirituality of a large portion of the students here on campus and you’ll see what I mean. And again, it saddens me that even when you think this… you’re ready to write us off as another failure and move on. We’re not Georgetown or Boston College, and as far as I hear from the administration and students here, we don’t want to become them.

there is ZERO excuse to promote a comming out day for homos or the performance of vagina monolouges. here is an objective fact: homosexual sex is a mortal sin, ergo, it can seperate you from God for enterity. the bottom line of our faith is heaven or hell that is it. black and white, pure and simple. so in fact, the university is promoting mortal sins while it promotes being catholic. this is a deadly combo and a huge disservice to people who suffer from a disorded sexuality. if one argues the merits of a catholic education based on if you go to heaven or hell, i would say notre dame gets an F.

I agree; neither has a place on a Catholic college campus. But the fact that they’ve come here doesn’t mean that there isn’t outcry against them. All is not lost. Also, are you aware of the “official” university policy on homosexuality here? The only official organization we have is the Standing Committee on Gay & Lesbian Student Affairs, and the only statement that has been made regarding gay students is that they are not to be discriminated against. There was a “CommUnity” event earlier this year sponsored by the Committee, and the pamphlet they distributed, approved by the university, quoted the CCC which stated that homosexual actions are “intrinsically disordered” etc. etc. The university does NOT endorse homosexual activities.

 

[amarischuk]

RyanL:

If you were exposed to Christ, and *only *Christ, do you think you could grow in your faith? I imagine the answer is yes. You don’t strictly need the opposing viewpoint - it’s already within you. You still have a fallen nature (concupiscence) that must be overcome; there’s a long way to go for all of us.

Step 1: Learn your faith. Poor catechesis is why there are so many cafeteria Catholics (I should know: I was one!). We have failed at Step 1. This is why it is important to have a Catholic University in more than name or what hangs on the walls.

This is categorically false and insulting to the many intelligent people who disagree with the magisterium on any number of issues. I need only recall the names of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Thomas More, Blaise Pascal, Mercier, Blondel, Abbe Journet, Olivier Duschenes, Etienne Gilson, Jacques Maritain, Yves Congar, Henri de Lubac, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Pierre Marie Teilhard de Chardin, Marie-Dominique Chenu, Karl Rahner, Hans Kung, Gabriel Marcel, Frederick Copleston, Johann Adam Mohler and J.A. Jungmann. All these men have disagreed and been in conflict with some aspect of the teaching of the magisterium; many of them only later vindicated after their deaths.

Adam

 

[JSmitty2005]

Rach620:

Wasn’t that list a bit… unnecessary in it’s explicity?

Too explicit? Not any more explicit than the nature of the disorders themselves, all of which are unnatural and sinful.

Rach620:

But answering your argument here… I believe there is a difference between encouraging someone to be proud of their sexual orientation and saying that it’s okay not to consider themselves “evil” for an orientation which they cannot control, which is what I believe Zahmir is saying. There is a fine line where this expression crosses into inappropriate, a line which I feel many of those who wear the shirts cross, however. We should not have “pride” for living a sinful lifestyle–for acting on homosexual attractions. But at the same time, we must love those who are homosexually oriented.

I agree that we should love the sinner and hate the sin, but I suggest you reread Zahmir’s post. They encouraged people to be proud of their disorders in order to “be true to themselves” and “assert their identities.” That is simply wrong and ridiculous. That kind of attitude will only lead to the belief that there’s nothing wrong with it rather than facing the problem and dealing with it. Homophiliac *people * aren’t evil for having same-sex attractions, but those attractions are certainly evil and the work of the devil just like any other temptation. When you say that they cannot control it, I agree that many people get these attractions unknowingly over time during their development because of a bad influence in their environment, but they are not born that way! On the other hand, I do believe that some (a minority) do choose to be gay in order to get attention and be different. (It’s especially enticing when people are saying that it’s something to be proud of. ) It is a fact, however, that gays can choose to become straight. Don’t believe me? www.narth.org

 

[Fitz]

I have been to Notre Dame to visit many times over the years. I think it is trying to be elitist in every way, and that includes wanting to be liberal in its views of the world. For the sake of diversity they make sure to include all types of very smart people. It is very hard to get in to ND, even if your parent went there. My family members that did graduate from ND are very successful, but not very Catholic. Sorry, I have to admit this. I also have one friend whose son went there for one year and could not tolerate the amount of drinking that is done in the dorms. He transferred to another Christian college in sophomore year. This drinking problem has been true forever, because I saw it when I was in college and visited ND- and that is a long time ago.

I was approached by a gay young man outside the Football Stadium last year asking me to wear some colored arm band if “Gay was OK”. I walked by and did not respond because I was speechless really. The gay agenda is being pushed by some at your school.

I know the academics are great, the setting idyllic, but I don’t think it is really a Catholic Education. I am sorry to be saying this to the young people on the forums that are currently attending there. You are paying a high price, and getting a great secular education, and in the work world you will be elite. However, a Catholic education would require your school to follow church teachings. Instead they are teaching you to be more than tolerant of all religions and accepting of a watered down Catholicism.

That being said, you are certainly no worse off there than those that attend a secular university. All of this is my opinion. I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings and I know the people that attend ND and that are allumnae are really great fans of the school and love it. Sometimes you need to listen to what others are thinking- you know, for the diversity of thought that you seem to think is very important.

As a parent, I would never pay the price of ND.

 

[Scoobyshme]

I would hope that the Pope censures the university. And, if they do not cease and desist from allowing such behavior, remove the Church’s support entirely and prohibit them from advertising themselves as a “Catholic” university! This is no time to play patty cake. We need to be direct and firm. No excuses. Get with the program or get out! If we stand for nothing, we will fall for anything.

 

[soccerDad]

It is wishful thinking that the church will censure universities. Has it ever happened? See the thread on this: “Vatican foresees pruning…”; forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=83307

Let’s face it. To most of America, Notre Dame is nothing but a football team anyway, and has been for quite some time. It’s priced out of most families’ reach anyway.

Besides, colleges are refuges of the left in America, and the Church is to the right. They are almost opposites in our culture.

 

[JSmitty2005]

soccerDad:

Besides, colleges are refuges of the left in America, and the Church is to the right. They are almost opposites in our culture.

This is true, but it’s also ironically sad since the Church invented the university.

 

[Orionthehunter]

soccerDad:

It is wishful thinking that the church will censure universities. Has it ever happened? See the thread on this: “Vatican foresees pruning…”; forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=83307

Let’s face it. To most of America, Notre Dame is nothing but a football team anyway, and has been for quite some time. It’s priced out of most families’ reach anyway.

Besides, colleges are refuges of the left in America, and the Church is to the right. They are almost opposites in our culture.

I agree that much of the toleration for dissent within Catholic institutions has created confusion and scandal and must be rectified. However, Soccerdad, I want to urge that we trust our Bishops and the Pope to do this in the manner and timeframe they discern from the Holy Spirit which may not be as the laity expect or desire.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

soccerDad:

Let’s face it. To most of America, Notre Dame is nothing but a football team anyway, and has been for quite some time. It’s priced out of most families’ reach anyway.

Whether ND is priced out of the range of most families is not the point. The stature of ND in American society wields enormous influence over the hearts and minds of both Catholics and non-Catholics in America and elsewhere.

Last June Rev Edward Malloy chose to allow himself to be given the same honour as that given to Dr Henry Morgentaler – a notorious abortionist. Dr Gerald Killan, Principal of the Catholic College hosting Malloy’s award, having made a ‘deal’ with the university with which the college was allied, claimed that there was no relation between the two awards; no harm would ensue.

Letters were written by students claiming to be Catholic who had no idea of the Church’s teaching on abortion. No idea! This award was a scandal to the Church! Yet when all was said and done, Malloy got his award and never said a word about the appalling situation which had developed at that university. Not a finger did he lift to allay the confusion and sense of betrayed trust among Catholics in Canada and America.

And that, my friend, goes far beyond playing football.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Orionthehunter:

I want to urge that we trust our Bishops and the Pope to do this in the manner and timeframe they discern from the Holy Spirit which may not be as the laity expect or desire.

And the bishops need to learn that there are greater things to Christian life than protecting friendships with powerful people who flaunt the Church’s teachings. There is a sense of betrayed trust among ordinary Catholics which must be addressed. We look to the bishops for pastoral care which includes guidance. We get words words words. And actions which contradict the words.

The sensitivities of powerful people are protected while the rest of us languish, abandoned to a white martyrdom.