Pray TO Mary or THROUGH Mary

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You did not list the spiritual sacrifices…study the Bible for them and get back to me.

Again - your prayer to her is unscriptural and wrong. You have no scriptural basis and that which you point out is twisting of the scriptures and gross misinterpretations to validate your religion. Again - sorry to offend but the truth does not always taste good.
 
Linkowski said:
You did not list the spiritual sacrifices…study the Bible for them and get back to me.

Again - your prayer to her is unscriptural and wrong. You have no scriptural basis and that which you point out is twisting of the scriptures and gross misinterpretations to validate your religion. Again - sorry to offend but the truth does not always taste good.
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Unscriptural?

Consider these verses. On the right, John Sulza explains the Scripture passages.

No my friend. You are wrong to think it is not Scriptural.
John Salza from Scripture Catholic:
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne. Rev 1:4

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.).

And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints-Rev 5:8.

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
*
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?* Rev 6:9-11

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
*
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.* Rev 8:3-4
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When you talk to your mom, do you speak to her, or do you speak through her? Seems kind of silly to talk to someone without talking to them. It would be like telling your mom, “Oh yes, I’m speaking to you, but not really–I’m really just talking through you.”

As Gamera noted in post #16, prayer is not worship. It is just communication.

Some sacrifice is worship. That’s what the Mass is: the sacrifice of calvary offered throughout space and history.

But if I sacrifice for my wife or children, that doesn’t constitute worship of them.
 
These scriptures are not grounds for praying to them…again, the prayer below is showing a heart that is on the ground prostrate before one other than God…

“Possess my soul”…“Take over my entire personality and life”…“replace it with yourself”. This is a complete giving of oneself as a sacrifice…and is abominable.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
**Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.**Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
 
Linkowski said:
These scriptures are not grounds for praying to them…again, the prayer below is showing a heart that is on the ground prostrate before one other than God…

“Possess my soul”…“Take over my entire personality and life”…“replace it with yourself”. This is a complete giving of oneself as a sacrifice…and is abominable.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
**Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.**Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
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Yes, your opinions and your ideas are fallible.
 
You know in your heart that this is not opinion.

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“Possess my soul”…“Take over my entire personality and life”…“replace it with yourself”. This is a complete giving of oneself as a sacrifice…and is abominable.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
 
Linkowski said:
You know in your heart that this is not opinion.

=========

“Possess my soul”…“Take over my entire personality and life”…“replace it with yourself”. This is a complete giving of oneself as a sacrifice…and is abominable.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
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It’s intercessory prayer much like asking Mom. Pray for me. I have told my mother I love her in a poetic matter. Does it mean I take my mother over God? No. How many times have you told your family that you love them.

Pope John Paul II is giving honor to Mary. Tell me does that pray neglect Jesus?

No.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
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I noticed many of the saints intercessionary prayer always have Jesus’ name in them.

Like, "Blessed are you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy Womb Jesus.

O Mother, of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in your mercy and answer us."

Pour forth, we beseech thee, O Lord, your grace into our heartl that we, to whom the Incarnation of Christ, Your Son, was made known by the message of an Angel, may by His Passion and Cross be brought to the Glory of His Resurrection; through the Same Christ Our Lord. Amen.
 
If one loves his wife/husband with all his heart, would that make him love God any less?

No assumption please. 😉
 
Incessionary prayer to the saints are nothing if it exclude Jesus Christ.
 
Linkowski said:
Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
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A strange thing to say, when debating philosophy and opinions. To determine whether something is right or wrong depends on an understanding of what “something” is, and what right and wrong are. Without a common philosophical basis one cannot even distinguish fact from opinion, as these are concepts enmeshed in many philosophical systems.

You need to define “sacrifice”, for one thing. I am not sure what you mean by it. You state that what JPII was a sacrifice, but without a definition of what a sacrifice is, there is literally no way to discuss it further. It just seems to you that what he did was one, and in error. To me something must die in order to be sacrificed. Here John does not kill himself for Mary but asks for the reverse of a sacrifice - more life, enabled, he thinks, through Mary. No sacrifice, no foul, no error, no abomination. Unless you have other grounds for disliking it.
May I suggest you see it as an invitation for demonic possession? In that case you would have to assert that the Virgin Mary is a demon - something I do not think you would get very far with.
 
Linkowski said:
You know in your heart that this is not opinion.

=========

“Possess my soul”…“Take over my entire personality and life”…“replace it with yourself”. This is a complete giving of oneself as a sacrifice…and is abominable.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
Click to expand...
I know in my heart that you are angry.
I know in my heart that you have been taught lies & half truths.
I know in my heart that you are upset about something other than just what you are saying.
I know in my heart that you are in great pain.
I know in my heart that you want to serve God.
I know in my heart that you do not know how to best do so.
I know in my heart that you do not realize how bitter you sound.
I know in my heart that if you truly understood how much Jesus Christ loves you, you would not–could not–be so scornful of His beloved mother.
I know in my heart that even though you http://bestsmileys.com/sad/10.gifverbally abuse her, that Mary is lovingly praying for you anyway, because mothers are like that, and she is the best of mothers.
I know in my heart that if you could just for one moment see her & love her, that you would be closer to Jesus than you have ever been.
I know in my heart that when people on this forum say that they will pray for you, that they are neither lying nor trying to upset you; they mean it.
I know in my heart that your words against Mary are causing pain to the One Who lay down His life on the cruel cross, so that the doors of Heaven might be opened to “whomsoever will”.

These are not opinions, Link. These are the truth. I am sad that you do not understand that…God bless you anyway. I hope you can find your way to a more peaceful place in your life.
 
LuvHim said:
Are we to be praying to Mary or through Mary…

I guess what I mean here is - do we ask her to answer our prayer or do we ask her to pray for us. Which one or both?

Thank you.
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Both we ask her to awnser our prayer and our prayer is a request for her to intercede to her son on behalf of us. (which would mean she would pray for us)
 
Zooey said:
I know in my heart that you are angry.
I know in my heart that you have been taught lies & half truths.
I know in my heart that you are upset about something other than just what you are saying.
I know in my heart that you are in great pain.
I know in my heart that you want to serve God.
I know in my heart that you do not know how to best do so.
I know in my heart that you do not realize how bitter you sound.
I know in my heart that if you truly understood how much Jesus Christ loves you, you would not–could not–be so scornful of His beloved mother.
I know in my heart that even though you http://bestsmileys.com/sad/10.gifverbally abuse her, that Mary is lovingly praying for you anyway, because mothers are like that, and she is the best of mothers.
I know in my heart that if you could just for one moment see her & love her, that you would be closer to Jesus than you have ever been.
I know in my heart that when people on this forum say that they will pray for you, that they are neither lying nor trying to upset you; they mean it.
I know in my heart that your words against Mary are causing pain to the One Who lay down His life on the cruel cross, so that the doors of Heaven might be opened to “whomsoever will”.

These are not opinions, Link. These are the truth. I am sad that you do not understand that…God bless you anyway. I hope you can find your way to a more peaceful place in your life.
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I can see you do not know me well. To be misjudged can be frustrating but that is okay. None of you have really addressed the attitude of this prayer…it is a complete bowing down of the heart prostrate to Mary and is none other. You can call me angry for saying that…you can say I am in pain for saying that…but what I am saying is simple truth…when you say things like he said…you are yielding completely to Mary and this is terribly unbiblical. I am sorry that you do not like that.
 
Link doesn’t know Catholicism. He thinks he knows it but he doesn’t.
 
I can see you do not know me well. To be misjudged can be frustrating but that is okay. None of you have really addressed the attitude of this prayer…it is a complete bowing down of the heart prostrate to Mary and is none other. You can call me angry for saying that…you can say I am in pain for saying that…but what I am saying is simple truth…when you say things like he said…you are yielding completely to Mary and this is terribly unbiblical. I am sorry that you do not like that.
 
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