Pray TO Mary or THROUGH Mary

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Linkowski said:
I can see you do not know me well. To be misjudged can be frustrating but that is okay. None of you have really addressed the attitude of this prayer…it is a complete bowing down of the heart prostrate to Mary and is none other. You can call me angry for saying that…you can say I am in pain for saying that…but what I am saying is simple truth…when you say things like he said…you are yielding completely to Mary and this is terribly unbiblical. I am sorry that you do not like that.
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Thank you for your concern.
We are simply praying for others to see the Communion of Saints the way Catholics do.

It is better to pray than to keep saying what we don’t know too well. 🙂

You believe in the Lord’s prayer, do you? Do you pray it daily?
 
Linkowski said:
I can see you do not know me well. To be misjudged can be frustrating but that is okay. None of you have really addressed the attitude of this prayer…it is a complete bowing down of the heart prostrate to Mary and is none other. You can call me angry for saying that…you can say I am in pain for saying that…but what I am saying is simple truth…when you say things like he said…you are yielding completely to Mary and this is terribly unbiblical. I am sorry that you do not like that.
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But Link, what you don’t get is that JPII’s prayer to Mary was to be like her in all things. That is the gist of his prayer, no?

Well, MARY WAS PERFECT IN HER OBEDIENCE TO GOD. That’s why she is so revered and honored.

So what JPII is saying in that prayer, essentially, is, “Mary, help me to be just like you – perfect in obedience TO GOD.”

Are you saying it is a bad thing for someone to want to be perfect in obedience to God?

Another thing you don’t get is that Catholics KNOW and FULLY REALIZE that Mary has NO POWER that comes from herself. Any power she may have to hear prayers, bestow grace, etc. flows to her FROM JESUS. Jesus is the source and summit of her grace and wisdom just as it is ours! Catholics KNOW this! We don’t think Mary is some kind of Superwoman who was magically perfect by her own power. We fully know and recognize that she is first and foremost a creation and a servant of God, and all of her special blessings are because of HIS benevolence.

So WHAT is the problem?
 
wanner47,

Your signature’s image is so cool! The Hail Mary prayer. 😉 I like the tiny images next to each sentence of the prayer.
 
water said:
wanner47,

Your signature’s image is so cool! The Hail Mary prayer. 😉 I like the tiny images next to each sentence of the prayer.
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Thanks. 🙂 I have to give credit to Margaret, though, she made them. (She and I were on a message board together a long time ago.)
 
Linkowski said:
Let me just hit you straight and square between the eyes on this one…

Deny this scripture…

Psalms 116:17 KJV 17 I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.

A spiritual sacrifice just as the the others are in the posting that I placed before.

Respond with your list of spiritual sacrifices.
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Link, are you aware there were Thanksgiving Sacrifices in the OT. The author of this Psalm is describing the Todah.

The Todah, by the way, pre-figured the Eucharist of Todah, A Sacrficie of Thanksgiving!

Link, you don’t know it, but you are being drawn closer to the Catholic Faith even when you think you are punching me right between the eyes.
 
Linkowski said:
The truth is - you won’t care if I list them all.
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The Truth is, the “Sacrfice of Thanksgiving” that you described is a Jewish sacrifice called a Todah.

Learn your OT, Link. Don’t rely on single lines of Scripture. God’s word is a beautiful story, not a list of prooftexts.
 
Linkowski said:
You know in your heart that this is not opinion.

=========

“Possess my soul”…“Take over my entire personality and life”…“replace it with yourself”. This is a complete giving of oneself as a sacrifice…and is abominable.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Philosophies and opinions are not valid with regard to this matter.
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Link, if any part of the Body of Christ resides in my soul, then all of the Body of Christ resides in my soul. How can anyone, who is part of the Body of Chirst, Link, take away from the Glory of God?
 
Link, I found some information on the Todah that I thought you might be interested in, as well as the rest of you that come accross this “prayers equal sacrifice” line:

This comes from fisheaters.com
Thanksgiving Offerings, or "Korban Todah"
Code: 
  Another type of Old Testament *Korban* (or *quorban*), i.e.,       "offering," is the thanksgiving offering or "*todah*," a form of *Zebach       Sh'lamim* ("peace offering") which was initiated in Leviticus 7:11-15:                 ***And this is the     law of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which he shall offer unto the LORD.     If he offer it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the sacrifice     of thanksgiving unleavened cakes mingled with oil, and unleavened wafers     anointed with oil, and cakes mingled with oil, of fine flour, fried. Besides     the cakes, he shall offer for his offering leavened bread with the sacrifice     of thanksgiving of his peace offerings. And of it he shall offer one out     of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the LORD, and it shall be     the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings. And the flesh     of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving shall be eaten the     same day that it is offered; he shall not leave any of it until the     morning.***
Interestingly, even the Jewish rabbis said in the Midrash that, when the Messiah comes, all offerings will be abolished except the thanksgiving todah offering (Vayikra Rabba 9,2).
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Link, I’m curious, your interpretation from the Psalm that “thansgiving offering” equals “prayer”, where did you get that from? Did someone tell you this, or did you come up with this interpretation on your own?
 
Linkowski, there’s a Protestant kids’ song that goes:

The B-I-B-L-E
Yes, that’s the book for me
I stand alone on the word of God
The B-I-B-L-E

Suppose a Catholic accused you of idolatry because this song says “I stand alone on the word of God,” when really one should stand alone on Jesus, not on a book — so anyone who is standing alone on the Bible is ignoring Jesus and replacing Jesus with an abominable idol. If you heard such a bizarre accusation, you’d just shake your head in amazement that anybody could misrepresent your beliefs so totally. That’s how Catholics feel when we hear these arguments about Mary.

When someone says they “stand alone on the Bible,” what they ultimately mean is they stand alone on Jesus. When someone says they “turn to the Bible for guidance,” obviously what they mean is they are turning to Jesus for guidance. The printed words are precious but ultimately they are just a method of communication — the source is Jesus. Similarly, when someone says they are “turning to Mary” for help, they ultimately are turning to Jesus. Saying someone is devoted to “Mary instead of Jesus” makes about as much sense as saying someone loves, “the Bible instead of Jesus.”

Naturally, the Protestant kids’ song doesn’t constitute “idolatry” — the whole reason the B-I-B-L-E has any value whatsoever is because of Jesus. Same thing with Mary. Yes, we Catholics love Mary — because of Jesus. Yes, we turn to Mary — because of Jesus. It is all because of Jesus.
 
Linkowski said:
I can see you do not know me well. To be misjudged can be frustrating but that is okay. None of you have really addressed the attitude of this prayer…it is a complete bowing down of the heart prostrate to Mary and is none other. You can call me angry for saying that…you can say I am in pain for saying that…but what I am saying is simple truth…when you say things like he said…you are yielding completely to Mary and this is terribly unbiblical. I am sorry that you do not like that.
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Hi Link,

I’ve been reading this thread and I understand why people feel you’re coming accross as a bit ‘angry’ as some have said.

I think I can help you out understanding this slightly, even though I’m not fully at ease with Marian devotion myself yet.

I’m protestant and struggled for ages with this…and for myself anyway, came from quite an anti-Catholic opinion before I started learning about it.

I think to the people in this thread the ideas of latria, dulia and hyperdulia might help with distinctions… as it helped me understand.
 
Zooey said:
Lily remarks are 100% on the money.

In re: your little saying?? [sign]Hello!!!Jesus is the Word of God!![/sign]
You might wanta try to remember that. Like say, when you’re sacrificing your spare time to work extra hours to buy a new Bible.
Wouldn’;t want anybody thinking you were**:rolleyes: worshipping** or :rolleyes: sacrificing to your Bible…
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Yes, our friend Linkowski has admitted he worships a book. The bible CLEARLY states the JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD!

So, by saying that he worships Jesus through the Word of God, he is clearly contradicting the Bible.

He is placing a book on the same level as God. He thinks a book, an inanimate object made of paper and ink, is equal to God.

The next time you want to accuse anyone of idoltary Linkowski, you need go no further than to look in the mirror.
 
Swiss_Guard said:
Yes, our friend Linkowski has admitted he worships a book. The bible CLEARLY states the JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD!

So, by saying that he worships Jesus through the Word of God, he is clearly contradicting the Bible.

He is placing a book on the same level as God. He thinks a book, an inanimate object made of paper and ink, is equal to God.

The next time you want to accuse anyone of idoltary Linkowski, you need go no further than to look in the mirror.
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ok, I see how you feel about this… but this isn’t really helping any kind of dialogue is it???

S/he obviously wants to learn something from you to be here.

S
 
Abira said:
S/he obviously wants to learn something from you to be here.
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Actually, so far I haven’t seen a willingness to do anything other than tell us Marian Devotion is an abomination from linkowski… 😦
 
NewGuyInChurch said:
Actually, so far I haven’t seen a willingness to do anything other than tell us Marian Devotion is an abomination from linkowski… 😦
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it maybe is a bit idealistic, but the discussion should still be kept polite by one side, if not by both.

Take care 🙂

S
 
Linkowski said:
The Pope here is praying to Her…in fact, he is giving himself completely to her - directly. This is why you have Protestants who say what they say. This is definitely giving of oneself (sacrificing oneself) and treating her as God.II
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Yes,

The verb “To pray” means “to ask”. The root word is Latin Precari - to implore, to humbly request.

Here is Websters on the subject
Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \ˈprā\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century
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transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore — often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
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intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
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Whenever we ask, we pray. Sometimes we ask God (pray to God) other times we ask (pray to ) others,

So Linkowski, if you have ever asked any one for any thing, YOU HAVE PRAYED TO THEM.

Even lawyers do it.

Most legal briefing have a section call “Prayer for Relief” where the lawyer asked the court to perform specific actions

Here’s an example
Prayer for Relief
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Code: 
    WHEREFORE, **Plaintiff pray** that this Court:
    (1) Declare Section 502(2)(d) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996
to be unconstitutionally overbroad;
(2) Declare Section 502(2)(d) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996
to be unconstitutionally vague.
(3) Preliminarily and permanently enjoin defendant from enforcing
Section 502(2)(d) of the Telecommunications Act of 1996; and
(4) Such other relief as may be just and appropriate, including an
award of attorneys’ fees and costs.
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proenglish.org/legal/hhs/initialbrief.html

Now, so what if +JP-II asked Mary for something?
 
Linkowski said:
Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II
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Emphasis mine. Notice what he says there? He’s asking Mary to guide him to Jesus. He’s not stopping at Mary.

Paul gave himself as a model to early Christians (Phil 3:17; 1 Thess 1;7; 2 Thess 3:9). Mary is such a model.
 
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