Prayer: A Rant

[Valke2]

Frankly, while I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say that the Rabbis are “right” in their anger over this, I will say that I am not entirely mystified or angered by it. It makes sense to me, even after just a few minutes of trying to see things from their viewpoint.

That’s pretty much all I have been trying to say.

 

[kalt]

"If a people cannot have historical memory because it is somehow wrong to remember the historical injustices perpetuated against them (why? because it makes those responsible uncomfortable?), then what do they have? Someone else’s version of their own history. "

Who alive today is guilty of taking land from Native Americans? Who alive today is guilty of banning Catholics from my state?

So who are “those responsible” that you think not playing victim is protecting?

This is really crazy.

Should I distrust English people because of the potato famine and other atrocities in Ireland?

Maybe I’ll ask for reparations from England, since I’m apparently a “vicitm” of the potato famine.

 

[sambos671]

"If a people cannot have historical memory because it is somehow wrong to remember the historical injustices perpetuated against them (why? because it makes those responsible uncomfortable?), then what do they have? Someone else’s version of their own history. "

Who alive today is guilty of taking land from Native Americans? Who alive today is guilty of banning Catholics from my state?

So who are “those responsible” that you think not playing victim is protecting?

This is really crazy.

Should I distrust English people because of the potato famine and other atrocities in Ireland?

Maybe I’ll ask for reparations from England, since I’m apparently a “vicitm” of the potato famine.

Yes. And you should hunt down the decendents of Oliver Cromwell and MAKE THEM PAY. And anytime and Englishman tries to do something good for you; always suspect the stab in the back!

 

[Guyonthestreet]

Yes. And you should hunt down the decendents of Oliver Cromwell and MAKE THEM PAY. And anytime and Englishman tries to do something good for you; always suspect the stab in the back!

 

[dzheremi]

Who alive today is guilty of taking land from Native Americans? Who alive today is guilty of banning Catholics from my state?

My only point is it is not appropriate for those outside of a community to tell those within it what they should or should not consider important. Especially in cases where the attitudes that motivated their past oppression are still alive or even growing in some quarters, as is the case with anti-Semitism and anti-Catholicism. You may not see the point in dwelling on the anti-Catholic history of your state (good for you, by the way, because I agree it doesn’t help anything), but chances are you do not view every case of anti-Catholicism as isolated in history. So what exactly is wrong with Native Americans being suspicious of the motives of white people, or Jews the motives of Catholics, or Christians the overtures of the Muslims?

I don’t see why you think it is about “playing up victimhood” when the histories of the oppression of the people concerned by the people making the gestures in question are well known.

So who are “those responsible” that you think not playing victim is protecting?

I don’t know why you’re trying to force my comments to conform to your viewpoint. I’m not talking about the Jews being oppressed today by Christians. Not at all. It is not because the Jews are victims today of oppression by Christians but because they historically have been that they, in their eyes, have reason to distrust us now.

Should I distrust English people because of the potato famine and other atrocities in Ireland?

If you wish…?

Maybe I’ll ask for reparations from England, since I’m apparently a “vicitm” of the potato famine.

Since this thread isn’t about reparations for Jews or anyone else, I don’t know what you’re rolling your eyes about. But good luck getting yours from England.

 

[sambos671]

Every people have been victimized by some other people. Not that it is right but it is truth. What falls to us is not be behave in like manner but suspicion breeds more suspicion and things become a self fulfilling proficy. Ie…This class of people is against me. I stay away from them so I don’t get hurt. See they exclude themselves from me.

 

[Soutane]

I think that what is starting to bother a lot of people is the Jews’ insistance that their situation is absolutely unique and that no one had better dare use holocaust references when talking about Darfur,Cambodia,Ukraine,Armenia,etc,etc,etc.
I for one am tired of tiptoeing around the Jews and refraining from criticizing Israel and it’s treatment of the Palestinians because the Jews are “special” and “we just don’t understand.”
I personally think the Jews ARE special and I hold them as I hold all “special people” to a higher level of accountability.

I suggest that people here read Rabbi Irwin Kula’s comments on this issue at WashingtonPost.com in the religion section.(I’d post a link but I do not know how to do that.)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Whatever. You wanted to know why some jews are offended by christians praying for them. I gave my opinion as to why. The Church for quite some time taught that we were christ killers and deserved to be treated accordingly while at the same time teaching that some of us had to be kept around for revelation. So you’ll have to forgive us for being touchy about more prayers for our conversion.

In case the OP does not know: Jews - as an entire people - were accused of “Deicide” , & they were accused for centuries of murdering Christian children so as to knead the blood into their matzos. This accusation was being made by Christians less than a century ago; Muslims still make it.​

The sufferings of Christians at the hands of Jews are as nothing by comparison to the hell on earth they have put the Jews through.

 

[Baloo]

In case the OP does not know: Jews - as an entire people - were accused of “Deicide” , & they were accused for centuries of murdering Christian children so as to knead the blood into their matzos. This accusation was being made by Christians less than a century ago; Muslims still make it.​

The sufferings of Christians at the hands of Jews are as nothing by comparison to the hell on earth they have put the Jews through.

“Were you there when they crucified my Lord?”

Let us not forget that it was the Jews who called for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

But since that was all part of God’s plan, and it saved us from our sins, I am grateful for it.

Although I would like to see an example other than the Spanish Inquisition of Christians persecuting the Jews. Usually the Muslims and non-believers persecute the Jews, such as the Nazis.

 

[survive]

Christians have killed Jews. Jews have killed Christians. Christians have become Jews. Jews have become Christians. Christians have protected Jews. Jews have protected Christians. Christians have refused to protect Jews from common attackers. Jews have refused to protect Christians from common attackers. Christians have falsely maligned Jews. Jews have falsely maligned Christians. Christians have helped Jews out of poverty and misery. Jews have helped Christians out of poverty and misery. Jews have been accused of being the same as Christians. Christians have been accused of being the same as Jews. Millions would love to get rid of all Jews and all Christians and love it when we argue and suspect each other.

 

[Chiltepin]

I do not think it is fair to ask a Jewish person not to be concerned with historical events. So much of the Jewish religion and cultural identity comes from their history and heritage.

As Catholics I would think that we might be more understanding of this regard to history. We have a rich history of our own that we owe in many ways to the Jewish people.

I think that there is a proud individualism in our culture that causes people to respond defensively when their ancestors are accused of a crime. If you do not believe you personally are responsible for these past crimes or injustices, there should be no problem and no defensiveness. You can rest peacefully in the understanding that you are clean of that alleged guilt.

I think the historically developed distrust of some groups toward others can be valid as there are patterns to group interactions and patterns in history. This perspective should not be seen as a threat to our individuality. That is my take as a fake sociologist (I teach high school sociology, but I was a history major)

As for the prayers for conversion, I cannot speak for the Jews, but I can see why they might be offended. Judaism is more than just a set of beliefs it is a cultural identity. Who wouldn’t be happy to be one of God’s chosen people? One of the major obstacles in Jewish conversion to Christianity, I think, is that it would appear they are being asked to abandon that identity. Our praying for them to convert might look like we are asking them to throw that proud history and identity in the trash.

That being said. I do pray for people to see the truth in Catholicism. I make no apologies for that. I am not offended by people who pray for my conversion. I am offended by various mission trips being sent to Catholic countries to actively convert the Catholics, but not at all by the prayers. I wonder if I am inconsistent in this.