Prayer and Detachment

[Psychotheosophy]

St. John of the Cross writes…

“Just as images are notably beneficial for the remembrance of God and His saints, and for moving the will to devotion through their proper use, so too they will be the cause of serious error.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel
Book III, Chapter 37, Section 1

"These images are more dangerous (than other objects), for in saying, “they are holy objects,” a person becomes more assured and does not fear natural possessiveness and attachment…

We get a clear understanding of this in the festivity that celebrated in honor of His Majesty when He entered Jerusalem; while they were expressing thanks to Him with songs and palm branches, He was weeping because He knew that in spite of those exterior signs and decorations their hearts were far from Him (Luke 19:35-44). Evidently they were celebrating their own selves more than God, which often happens today when there is a solemn festival in some locality. Many are usually happier because of the recreation derived from the celebration - By seeing or being seen, or by eating, or through some other means than because of God’s pleasure."

The Ascent of Mount Carmel
Book III, Chapter 38, Section 2

So,
How does prayer and detachment relate?

 

[DBT]

How does prayer and detachment relate?

Maybe you can be a bit more specific?

The whole of “The Ascent” . . . which you quote twice . . . is about prayer and detachment . . . so there’s a lot of ground that can be covered.

If memory serves me correct, those chapters from Book III are about the purification of our will in the active night of spirit . . . specifically with regard to our feelings and emotions (joy, hope, sorrow and fear). The basic point in that stage of “The Ascent” is not to make little idols of our feelings and emotions by making them ends unto themselves . . . don’t rest in them for their sake alone. Our feelings are natural but, like everything else St. John describes in “The Ascent,” the proper use of such is to raise our minds and heart to God. The same holds true for our thoughts and memory which is the topic of the earlier chapters in Book III.

Perhaps, though, Book I might say it best? Specifically his comments on “nada” . . . which basically applies to everything. And, of course, his famous hand drawn diagram of “The Ascent” which, in one page, summarizes the entire work.

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[DBT]

. . . and one other thing we should keep in mind about the very late chapters in Book III. Basically St. John is petering out and running out of gas in his presentation . . . a victim of the structure he set out to do but never actually finished. He’s laboring to describe the “active nights” (the topic of The Ascent) but, like his counterpart St. Teresa, he really longs to discuss the “passive nights” (the topic of Dark Night) . . . and he is iching to get there. And he never does in The Ascent.

Regarding the “Images” quotes, he basically went off on a tangent and addressed a topic secondary to the matter at hand . . . but very important in his day.

My take: we shouldn’t get hung up on the images we venerate or the places we go to to pray as they are incidental to prayer itself. Sometimes people get to the point that they can only pray in such and such a place, with my “special” rosary and so on. All of this is an attachment that impeds the type of prayer St. John is longing to bring readers to.

So this too is about the purification of our will and, same as in the previous post, the place we go to to pray, the images we use etc should not be ends unto themselves. Rather, they are simply one of many means God gives us to raise our hearts to Him . . . which is the goal.

Dave

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m very interested this thread, in part because I’m very interested in St. John of the Cross – although the only of his works I’ve read is the first part of Dark Night.

Without benefit of the book, I’d blindly guess that detachment itself can be a result of prayer, but that the detachment process could be synonymous with some types of prayer, such as silent prayer. In the quotes about Jesus, maybe people were attached to the image of a king. They knew Jesus was special, but totally had no idea why, and it probably didn’t even occur to them that anybody would not want to be treated “like a king.”

OK, that’s probably more than enough speculation from me.

Alan

 

[DBT]

Hi Alan -

A few terms plucked from the glossary of “The Ascent” might help
Ascent Terms:

Detachment - The equivalent of poverty of spirit, refers to a freedom from the appetites so the heart may be surrendered entirely to God in the union of faith, hope and love.

Appetites - Generally: inordinate affective desires in which the will participates; that is, willful desires not rightly ordered to a moral or spiritual good. Thus the term is generally used in a more restricted way than might be expected. Especially when habitual, they both impede union with God and weary, torment, darken, defile and weaken the soul.

What we’re really talking about with all this is freedom from imperfections, especially when habitual:
Ascent Terms:

Imperfections - From the viewpoint of their object, the diminutive is used: small attachments, little satisfactions. The problem lies not in the object but in the subject; that is, one’s attachment interferes with the dynamism of love and spiritual progress. Habitual imperfections, when known, recognized, and voluntary, impede one from reaching the freedom of union. Souls may have many also with regard to their spiritual practices and works. Some are more to the surface; others more deeply rooted in the spirit and less perceptible. The dark night purges the soul of its habitual imperfections. In the spiritual marriage, all the bride’s words, thoughts and works are of God and directed toward him without any of the former imperfections. Even after reaching this union one may fall into imperfections but without advertence, or knowledge, or control. Of these semivoluntary imperfections it is written that the just one falls seven times a day.

Union - The goal of the spiritual journey, a union of likeness brought about through love.

And of this union, there are two types: union in substance and union in our faculties. Union in substance refers to the “effects” of contemplation and how we are transformed by it in virtue (especially love) and made more Christlike. It is permanent and aka the transforming union or spiritual marriage . . . perfection. Union of the faculties, on the other hand, are those fleeting, transitory moments called the “experience” of contemplation . . . that is, the temporary suspension (quieting) of our faculties (intellect, will, memory) during prayer.

Sooo . . . .

Detachment from our appetites frees us from those imperfections that impede our ability to reach union with God . . . either in substance or faculties.

Dave

 

[DBT]

Last comment

St. John sometimes comes across as a stern taskmaster (though nothing could be further from the truth) because he demands so much. All of this discussion of imperfections and how even the smallest of them must be purged for ever deeper purity of union lies at a level below which we are obligated to fight; namely sin.

The great tragedy according to St. John is the willful, voluntary and habitual forgetting of God. So anything we think, say, do, feel or desire that causes forgetfulness of Him is what the Dark Nights are intended to purify. Now, we are not to be scrupulous about this . . . remember, when it comes to imperfections “the just man falls seven times a day.” Again, the key is that which is willful, voluntary and habitual.

Fortunately there is a “cure” for all this . . . recollection . . . the habitual recalling to memory of God. Or to put it another way, our habitual un-forgetting of Him. And through this recollection whatever we think, say, do, feel or desire immediately raises our mind and heart to God. Thus we can be assured we are standing on firm ground . . . using the gifts of God and His creation for the purpose in which they are given in an ordered way.

Hopefullly this shows in some small way how prayer and detachment work together for a common goal . . . union with Him.

Dave

 

[Monica4316]

active night of spirit

just a question how does active night of the spirit differ from the passive night?

I’ve read parts of the Dark Night of the Soul, but not the Ascent.

 

[DBT]

just a question how does active night of the spirit differ from the passive night?

I’ve read parts of the Dark Night of the Soul, but not the Ascent.

They go hand in hand, really. The Ascent and Dark Night are best viewed as one complete work.

The Ascent treats the active night of sense (Book 1) and active night of spirit (Books 2 & 3). Basically, these are the things we do by way of mortification, self-denial, detachment and so on. It also encompasses all our active ways of prayer: vocal, meditation, recollection etc.

The Dark Night treats the passive night of sense (Book 1) and passive night of spirit (Book 2). This is the work God does in us to rid us of the habitual imperfections we can’t do on our own. Often we are blind to the imperfections that lie within us . . . so it takes God’s purifying hand to cleanse us. The work God does in us in these nights is the fruit of infused prayer . . . contemplation.

We tend to think of these nights as linear and seperate . . . in reality, they’re not. For example, souls on the threshold of being brought to contemplation are often said to be in the passive night of sense . . . while they learn to embrace the silence and simplicity they are drawn to in prayer. At the same time, the ascetic life of these souls is likely to be wrapped up in the type of things that occur in the active night of spirit . . . the internal struggles that imped the type of “quiet” prayer they long for. Namely this involves rejecting the pull of the thoughts and feelings that draw the soul away from God and cause them to forget Him.

Hope this helps,
Dave

 

[Student09]

Monica - the active night is the part we have control over - prayer and mortification, the active effort to be recollected and direct everything to God, etc. The passive night is the work that God Himself does in us.

The great tragedy according to St. John is the willful, voluntary and habitual forgetting of God. So anything we think, say, do, feel or desire that causes forgetfulness of Him is what the Dark Nights are intended to purify. Now, we are not to be scrupulous about this . . . remember, when it comes to imperfections “the just man falls seven times a day.” Again, the key is that which is willful, voluntary and habitual.

Can you explain what you mean by willfully/voluntarily forgetting God? Do you mean trying not to think of God, or being indifferent, or just failing to be recollected all the time?

 

[DBT]

Can you explain what you mean by willfully/voluntarily forgetting God? Do you mean trying not to think of God, or being indifferent, or just failing to be recollected all the time?

It can be all of those things.

The best way I can describe it is when we “rest” in our joy, hope, sorrow and fears (St. John’s terms) without raising our hearts to God. We do this all the time without realizing it . . . so that is involuntary. Souls who practice recollection, however, “know” when they are slow to lift their hearts simply to savor something on a lower level. So their sense of voluntary is pretty acute. If we “snap to it” once we realize what’s going on then all is well.

But when we get in a pattern of lingering before returning to Him, well . . .

Fr. Dubay describes all this very well in his wonderful book, “Fire Within” and he does it in the context of souls in the 5th and 6th mansions using St. Teresa’s terms. These are souls whom we might think are well beyond the pull of their weaknesses and imperfections . . . they’re not He describes the great struggle of these souls as a certain “corner cutting” in their rememberance of God. They get into a kind of rut; a pattern of behavior in which they are habitually slow to respond . . . kind of a “hold on I’ll be with you in a minute” way of dealing with God. Just as St. John teaches, when this pattern becomes habitual it is a kind of a slow motion death to recollection until the soul simply can’t draw their hearts to Him anymore because they’ve allowed themselves to be bogged down by so many superficial things. The greatest cause of this is a preoccupied mind. Thus, rather than enjoing the union they long for, these souls become “wearied, darkened, tormented” and so on.

The only way to breakout of the pattern is to break the hold of the attachment that is weighing one down. Through our active efforts, if possible (ie uncluttering our mind). If that fails, we patiently wait out the storm until He chooses to free us of it through passive means.

Don’t know if this helps . . . so very hard to describe

Dave

 

[Student09]

But when we get in a pattern of lingering before returning to Him, well . . .

Fr. Dubay describes all this very well in his wonderful book, “Fire Within” and he does it in the context of souls in the 5th and 6th mansions using St. Teresa’s terms. These are souls whom we might think are well beyond the pull of their weaknesses and imperfections . . . they’re not He describes the great struggle of these souls as a certain “corner cutting” in their rememberance of God. They get into a kind of rut; a pattern of behavior in which they are habitually slow to respond . . . kind of a “hold on I’ll be with you in a minute” way of dealing with God. Just as St. John teaches, when this pattern becomes habitual it is a kind of a slow motion death to recollection until the soul simply can’t draw their hearts to Him anymore because they’ve allowed themselves to be bogged down by so many superficial things. The greatest cause of this is a preoccupied mind. Thus, rather than enjoing the union they long for, these souls become “wearied, darkened, tormented” and so on.

I think I understand. How do you know if you are willfully not remembering God, though? If you become forgetful of Him, is there a way you can tell whether or not it was voluntary?

 

[InLight247]

The best way I can describe it is when we “rest” in our joy, hope, sorrow and fears (St. John’s terms) without raising our hearts to God.
Dave

Hi Dave, I must not ask my question by getting into personal, but it is hard to do so without at least being a little bit concrete. So here it goes: The other night I felt sad after an occasion. A particular old hurting memory came back and overtook me. I went to the Tabernacle and stayed there for forty minutes without saying much but opening my heart transparent to Him. Question here : Is the example described above considered “resting in my sorrow”? Or raising heart to God in sorrow? I tend to think it is the latter?

The second question is, how do you define “prayer of recollection”? I saw a Chinese translation somewhere, it translated as the meaning of “prayer of centering”. What do you think about this translation?

Thanks.

 

[DBT]

I think I understand. How do you know if you are willfully not remembering God, though? If you become forgetful of Him, is there a way you can tell whether or not it was voluntary?

Perhaps the best thing, in the beginning, is to not dwell on things like voluntary etc . . . as the very thinking about things like that impeds recollection. Introspection, analysis, reflection . . . these things tend to cause us to think “about” God rather than talk “to” Him.

Brother Lawrence says all this so well . . .

catholictreasury.info/books/presence_of_God/index.php

His basic point is to turn your hearts to God as often as you can throughout all your daily activities. When you recognize you’ve strayed (regardless of the reason why) . . . simply return to Him. We will rise and fall like this many times in a day . . . so we need to go easy on ourselves while we are learning so that recollection can become like “second nature.” Soon it becomes like breathing.

And as we learn we will begin to recognize that the reasons we forget Him usually has to do with some particular attachment that’s been occupying our mind. The more we begin to “see” like this in ourselves (self-knowledge) . . . the more we can discern that which is voluntary and involuntary. In short, we just come to “know.”

And when we come to know . . . the responsibility to maintain faithfulness to recollection becomes ever more important which is St. John’s main point on why union is impeded. Once we see an imperfection, we must let it go . . . just as we do sin. The problem with imperfections, though, is we’re blind to them . . . we don’t even know we have them until we’re shown. So until self-knowledge of a particular imperfection is given . . . the whole aspect of voluntary/involuntary is moot.

So the best course of action is to simply do the best we can . . . returning to Him throughout the day . . . just as Brother Lawrence describes so well.

What I’m describing in such a feeble manner is how the active and passive aspects work together . . . not sure I’m accomplishing that, though.

Dave.

 

[DBT]

Hi Dave, I must not ask my question by getting into personal, but it is hard to do so without at least being a little bit concrete. So here it goes: The other night I felt sad after an occasion. A particular old hurting memory came back and overtook me. I went to the Tabernacle and stayed there for forty minutes without saying much but opening my heart transparent to Him. Question here : Is the example described above considered “resting in my sorrow”? Or raising heart to God in sorrow? I tend to think it is the latter?

The second question is, how do you define “prayer of recollection”? I saw a Chinese translation somewhere, it translated as the meaning of “prayer of centering”. What do you think about this translation?

Thanks.

Hello Inlight -
No I’d say you’re just fine. God was with you . . . and you were with Him . . . sharing your sorrow . . . done in silence which is a very pure way of praying.

Coincidently I too was nursing an old hurt this morning. I spent my whole morning jog talking to myself (monologue) purposefully inflaming the hurt because it gave me a kind of satisfaction. Never in this did I bring Christ into the matter (dialogue). And I was aware of what I was doing . . . which is an althogether different situation than what you describe. You were raising your heart from your sorrow . . . I was the one doing the resting. So I suppose it would be good if I practiced what I preached!!

Remember that old thread . . . talking to yourself vs talking to God? Realization of what we are doing with regard to that is the key to your question . . . and Student09’s for that matter.

Regarding your second question, maybe the post on Brother Lawrence answers that? I know you know him so well Lately I’ve been spending much time with Osuna’s “Third Spiritual Alphabet.” While a long, sometimes tedious read his basic definition of recollection is this: The recalling of God to our memory . . . and that thoughts spoil everything (what I mean by talking to ourselves). So if that’s what we mean by centering, I have no problem with that.

Hope all is well!
Dave

 

[Psychotheosophy]

The best way I can describe it is when we “rest” in our joy, hope, sorrow and fears (St. John’s terms) without raising our hearts to God. We do this all the time without realizing it.

It may seem that way…

“It seemed as it did to Jeremias that God has placed a cloud in front of the soul so that its prayer might not pass through (Lamentations 3:44).”

The Dark Night
Book II, Chapter 8. Section 1

However,
According to St. John (of the Cross)…

“Now, until God gives us this good in heaven, pass the time in the virtues of mortification and patience, desiring to resemble somewhat in suffering this great God of ours, humbled and crucified. This life is not good if it is not an imitation of His life.”

St. John of the Cross
(Toward the end of his life in a letter written to Madre Ana de Jesus.)

Then,
Is this false…?

We tend to think of these nights as linear and seperate . . . in reality, they’re not.

Because,
According to St. John (of the Cross),…

“When something is to be understood spiritually concerning perfect or imperfection , no matter how slight, or about the truth or falsity of some matter, a man will understand more clearly than he did before he was in this darkness.”

The Dark Night
Book II, Chapter 8, Section 4

And,

“Just as images are notably beneficial for the remembrance of God and His saints, and for moving the will to devotion through their proper use, so too they will be the cause of serious error.”

The Ascent of Mount Carmel
Book III, Chapter 37, Section 1

 

[DBT]

It may seem that way…

Hi Psychotheosophy -

We’re talking about two different things . . . our willfull clinging to an attachment as part of our struggle in the active nights (The Ascent) vs. the cloud God sometimes places over our intellect and memory to darken us and make us more reliant on Him in the passive nights (Dark Night). Or so it seems . . . .

Then,
Is this false…?

Is what false? I’m not sure what you’re asking.

My apologies for talking so much on your thread . . . perhaps I should step aside so you can speak your piece.

My best to you,
Dave

 

[Student09]

Perhaps the best thing, in the beginning, is to not dwell on things like voluntary etc . . . as the very thinking about things like that impeds recollection. Introspection, analysis, reflection . . . these things tend to cause us to think “about” God rather than talk “to” Him.

Brother Lawrence says all this so well . . .

catholictreasury.info/books/presence_of_God/index.php

His basic point is to turn your hearts to God as often as you can throughout all your daily activities. When you recognize you’ve strayed (regardless of the reason why) . . . simply return to Him. We will rise and fall like this many times in a day . . . so we need to go easy on ourselves while we are learning so that recollection can become like “second nature.” Soon it becomes like breathing.

And as we learn we will begin to recognize that the reasons we forget Him usually has to do with some particular attachment that’s been occupying our mind. The more we begin to “see” like this in ourselves (self-knowledge) . . . the more we can discern that which is voluntary and involuntary. In short, we just come to “know.”

And when we come to know . . . the responsibility to maintain faithfulness to recollection becomes ever more important which is St. John’s main point on why union is impeded. Once we see an imperfection, we must let it go . . . just as we do sin. The problem with imperfections, though, is we’re blind to them . . . we don’t even know we have them until we’re shown. So until self-knowledge of a particular imperfection is given . . . the whole aspect of voluntary/involuntary is moot.

So the best course of action is to simply do the best we can . . . returning to Him throughout the day . . . just as Brother Lawrence describes so well.

What I’m describing in such a feeble manner is how the active and passive aspects work together . . . not sure I’m accomplishing that, though.

Dave.

That’s very helpful. Thank you.

 

[InLight247]

Thanks, Dave. Talking about old hurt(post #14), I was meditating about it these couple days. And what I am talking about here is related to the theme of this thread - detachment and prayer.

I thought I have overcome and let go this particular old hurt. But it threw itself back on me surprisingly overwhelming. If a hurt comes from someone I especially respect, it cuts the deepest. And if it is related to a spiritual matter, it makes it worse. I was asking myself if the reoccurring sorrow means my lack of forgiveness, my answer is a definite “no”. I don’t feel any resentment but lots of confusion, lament and sadness. The worst part is the person who hurt me probably does not realize how much suffering has been created, though it should be obvious.

Anyway, my reflection is about “detachment” from this pain. Since I know it is best to leave this old matter as is, without any communication with the one who created it, I have to chew and swallow the hurt as I did before. Looking back, I take it as a passive night from God. This suffering was totally given, totally out of my control, none of my fault, and the whole incident was even related to spirituality. What happened was like a sword piercing my heart and spirit at the time. I did come out of it more mature in the way of praying for the person everyday and love unconditionally. It is a purifying experience. (Please tell me if my thinking of the passive night is correct. I never really know. Thanks.)

What I can think of detaching myself from this suffering is to lift my pain up to God, and pray for continued healing. Maybe that is one of the examples on the link between prayer and detachment.

 

[DBT]

You’ve got a very good handle on things, Inlight Passive trials often come through the hands of others . . . especially those closest to us. Embracing the trial as you are is a true sign of detachment. And you’ll know you’ve reached the pinnacle when you’re indifferent as to whether it brings you joy or suffering . . . for you’ll love just the same.

Easier said than done, though

My prayers are with you,
Dave

 

[InLight247]

Passive trials often come through the hands of others . . . especially those closest to us.

Thanks for letting me know that.

And you’ll know you’ve reached the pinnacle when you’re indifferent as to whether it brings you joy or suffering . . . for you’ll love just the same.

That is a long way to go.

My prayers are with you,
Dave

Thanks, I remember I had your prayer last year when this particular night happened. Your help and prayers always help.