Prayer and Detachment

[Psychotheosophy]

Psychotheosophy,

Would you please use your own words to explain your point? I am kind of lost. I understand your quotes, but don’t understand what you are trying to say. Thanks.

How do they seem to differ?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Psychotheosophy,

Would you please use your own words to explain your point? I am kind of lost. I understand your quotes, but don’t understand what you are trying to say. Thanks.

Maybe this helps,

The diversity of people,
All shapes, sizes, colors, strengths, weaknessess, etc.

All should be respected,

Because they are all essentially the same,
Since they all have a naturally desire the Principle of Happiness (Life)

And in this Principle, the Way to Happiness,
We find Unity in society, the Church, and also with God.

The rejection of this Principle,
Is the source of disunity in society, the Church, and also with God.

 

[InLight247]

Originally Posted by Psychotheosophy

The non-willful clinging to a sorrowful “rest,”
Is union with God?

It seems you were using St. John’s quote in post #38 to explain “the non-willful clinging to a sorrowful rest is union with God.”

St. John’s quote was talking about accepting (not clinging) negative situations, being humble and trusting in God’s will.

Detachment is not cling to either joy or sorrow. How does clinging to sorrow become union with God?

 

[DBT]

It seems you were using St. John’s quote in post #38 to explain “the non-willful clinging to a sorrowful rest is union with God.”

St. John’s quote was talking about accepting (not clinging) negative situations, being humble and trusting in God’s will.

Detachment is not cling to either joy or sorrow. How does clinging to sorrow become union with God?

I think he was thinking I was the one saying all that

I think (hope) what is going on here is a failure to communicate . . . that the ideas that make all the sense in the world in our own minds . . . don’t necessarily come across that way to others when put into words. The Saints great lament: So much of mysticism lies beyond words. So when it comes to these matters, it is one thing to experience them . . . another thing to understand them . . . and quite another to be able to communicate and explain

In this, I trust all of us are doing the best we can . . . we’re just on different wave lengths sometimes

Hopefully this will clarify: To obtain to union, we must rise above our passions (joy, hope, sorrow, fear) . . . by forgetting them. By this we are freed from the mental preoccupation that comes from clinging or savoring in a purely natural way. A preoccupied mind . . . one that is filled with it’s cares and concerns . . . is a mind that is anxious, fretful and generally incapable of the peace and repose necessary for recollection. Thus a speculative heart is a non-recollected heart. The way out: by lifting our passions to God . . . we find God.

St. John describes all of this so well in Book 3 of the Ascent. All those pages are wonderful sources of prayerful reflection. A couple of key passages:
Ascent:

The soul is incapable of truly acquiring control of the passions and restriction of the inordinate appetites without forgetting and withdrawing from the sources of these emotions. Disturbances never arise in a soul unless through the apprehensions of the memory (ie, rehashing our passions in our mind for the simple satisfaction of it). When all things are fogotten, nothing disturbs the peace or stirs the appetites. As the sayng goes: What the eye doesn’t see, the heart doesn’t want.

He goes on like this for several pages until he comes to one of the great concluding summations of The Ascent . . . how we are to quiet our mind (thoughts) and heart (feelings) in order to find God:
Ascent:

What souls must do in order to live in perfect and pure hope in God is this: As often as distinct ideas, forms, and images (ie our thoughts and feelings) occur to them, they should immediately, without resting in them, turn to God with loving affection, in the emptiness of everything rememberable.

Please note, we are not required to stop thinking/feeling . . . simply redirect it to it’s proper cause and source: God. To do so is the height of detachment because when we habitually learn to do the above we do not cling to the possession of our thoughts and feelings. And thus, we will not be harmed.

Osuna has so much to say about this in Treatise 21 of “Third Spiritual Alphabet” on the level of practical, how-to realities. Perhaps Sirach might want to carry this discussion further?

Dave

 

[Sirach2]

Reading the 21st Chapter again, pg. 579, I was struck by the power of these words:

“Do not strive in a matter that does not concern you.”

There are some who under the pretext of a good intention are so zealous about every little thing that does not seem in accord with God that they cannot stand it at all, but must jump up immediately to change it, as if all evil would vanish with their arrival; as if, indeed, it were just waiting for them to wield the stick.

They set about eagerly to inquire into every defect as if they thought their words would prevail against evil, like holy water against fire. Zeal in God’s house, especially the zeal of beginners, usually consumes men of good will; that is, it impels them to try to remove the scandal of every vice they notice.

As I reflected on this grave temptation many struggle with, I think the greatest harm to their spirits is that they are unable to quiet their “understanding” when they come to prayer, since all these objects of their zeal are brought into focus in their memory by the enemy to distract them.

On the other hand, those who are able to quiet their minds in prayer may frequently experience their “will” being in union, lovingly attentive to God, while the memory and understanding make war to pull the will away from its center. The notable difference here is that these distractions are NOT desired, NOT willed, and it is painful to have them. Whereas, the distractions encountered by the overzealous are more or less willingly entertained, so that when the person attempts to pray, a dress rehearsal plays in their mind of all the good things they will say to correct others. This should be a special clue that the treasures of the heart are misplaced and need a heavy dose of detachment.

It is easy to grasp why Mother Teresa, in her litany of humility, taught:
2. Keep busy with your own affairs and not those of others.
3. Avoid curiosity.
4. Do not interfere in the affairs of others.

May I strive to keep the advice I share here with y’all.

 

[DBT]

The notable difference here is that these distractions are NOT desired, NOT willed, and it is painful to have them. Whereas, the distractions encountered by the overzealous are more or less willingly entertained

Wonderful points all, thank you

You very nicely summarized what is a very, very big point in my mind. That there is a big difference between distractions (not willed, generally harmless though painful as you say) and preoccupations (willed and always harmful in their ability to destroy recollection). It’s the latter we need to maintain custody over in our continuous effort to quiet the understanding. The former we should just laugh off and shew away like so many pesky little flies.

I don’t know if theologians make the distinctions I’m trying to show here . . . but, in my mind at least, it’s a very big deal.

Thank you!

Dave

 

[Sirach2]

Dave, sometimes those “pesky little flies” are of such magnitude that it alarms me. Have you ever experienced them to the degree at Mass, that you wonder if you prayed at all? I don’t know whether it’s from my familiarity of attending mass daily, growing into old age with less ability to concentrate, or if it’s rampant distraction due to this type of prayer. I almost hear the enemy whispering, “See there, since your mind wasn’t even there at Mass, you should stop going because it is not pleasing God.”

As I try to examine what is playing on the cinema of my mind, they are just like the flies that look for a place to light, flitting from one crazy thought to another, and not staying long enough to do any harm. I can only lift my will to God and trust that my intention was pure and that He considers this as my gift to Him despite this recurring problem. It is here that the trust of a child in the examples of St. Therese has been a comfort.

However, I do admit that when I am “overzealous” concerning the controversial threads I spoke of, then yeah … a totally different scenario. If we could accustom ourselves to examining the source of our distractions, it is a good step towards applying a suitable “detachment” remedy.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

It seems you were using St. John’s quote in post #38 to explain “the non-willful clinging to a sorrowful rest is union with God.”

St. John’s quote was talking about accepting (not clinging) negative situations, being humble and trusting in God’s will.

Detachment is not cling to either joy or sorrow. How does clinging to sorrow become union with God?

I’ve never nor do believe that, “the non-willful clinging to a sorrowful rest is union with God.”

What is the meaning of detachment,
And how do you define God?

 

[InLight247]

I’ve never nor do believe that, “the non-willful clinging to a sorrowful rest is union with God.”

What is the meaning of detachment,
And how do you define God?

My misunderstanding. Thanks for clarifying.
As for detachment, this thread has plenty discussions so far.

 

[DBT]

Sirach, I know exactly what you mean . . . whether voluntary or involuntary it’s all painful. Your comment “cinema in our mind” got me thinking of an old thread that speaks to this pain . . . and our corresponding hope. I re-post it again for those who care to wade through it . . .

(Three years ago) On Carmelite retreat, I saw a stained glass window in the Church that moved me deeply. It said:
Silence
Of word
And mind
Of the imagination
And of passions
Recollection

And it occurred to me at that moment that interior silence is the key to unlocking the most mystical of the beatitudes: Purity of Heart . . . for it is through silence that we will come to see the face of God. And this got me thinking about the multitude of interior passions that stifle purity of heart, acting like a fast growing cancer on the movements of the Holy Spirit in our souls. These passions play out in the back of our minds, often without our notice, like a continual running movie. What some might dismiss as trivial can actually be quite harmful, as my own experience has shown. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly my own mind can turn to anxiety, worry, complaining, excuses, sarcasm, rash judgment, the need to defend myself and win arguments, petty resentments – all in a split second. Allowing useless thoughts like these to take hold of our mind – even for the briefest moment - is to banish Christ from the tabernacle of our heart.

Then it occurred to me that if we are to strive for purity of heart we must also live in simplicity. Simplicity means living in harmony . . . in union itself. When we open the door of our mind to Christ’s gentle knocking, we will, in the words of St. Ambrose “see the riches of simplicity, the treasures of peace, the joy of grace.” The question, then, becomes how do we know when we have purity of heart? When we have purity of intention . . . love as our overriding motive. Purity of intention is the fruit of self-knowledge which, in turn, is the fruit of deep prayer. Purity of intention means knowing the state of one’s heart at every moment . . . before every thought is completed, any word is said or any action performed. Simplicity, then, is to realize all this and to continually examine our soul and expel any part that is not of God.

So, it would seem, this kind of simplicity is one that is based on self-denial. The ascetical life is sometimes described as nothing less than warfare on self-love . . . the will itself. So if the passions of the mind choke off purity of heart . . . then the mind is where the battle must be waged. And interior silence becomes the means by which we fight. Quite simply, we need to turn off the movie running in the back of our minds that linger on the trivialities and useless thoughts that so often leads us toward the seven deadly sins.

Time and time again we must fight against our very selves and return to our place of rest . . . in God. Taken seriously, this is a battle that will be waged dozens if not hundreds of times a day. Seen in this light, silence is mortification . . . and a joyful sacrifice at that. Silence is where all the false idols we hold so dear (anger, greed, pride, gluttony, envy, sloth, lust) are purged one by one from our soul. When you get right down to it, this is the essence of St. John of the Cross’ dark night. Further, this interior warfare highlights the wisdom of all the saints: mysticism without asceticism is a sham and a lie.

The mystical and ascetical, then, lead us to the glorious reality of knowing the indwelling presence of the trinity in our very souls. Too often, it seems, we over complicate contemplation. On retreat, Father told us “con-templation” simply means “with God in His temple.” The temple, of course, is our heart itself. Contemplation becomes mystical when it permeates all aspects of our life . . . when we begin living the unseen reality. And this is where the gifts of the Holy Spirit come into play, for without them we will never hear, let alone obey, His inspiration.

Living the unseen reality is to be attentive and receptive to the gentle stirrings of the Holy Spirit in all times and circumstances. It is to Practice the Presence of God and to live entirely in the present moment. Joyful living is to “just be” — whether in prayer or in action. It is to allow oneself to be guided by the Holy Spirit until He completely takes over. When this happens, our lives become intuitive, spontaneous, in rhythm. We move from situation to situation as the Spirit guides us . . . in a state of wonder and awe at everything.

Through silence our fruits will be made known - radiating from the core of our being outward - for the benefit of others. Seen in this light, silence is our sacred obligation. And lest anyone think this is all well and good but only monastics can practice it; I maintain silence can be practiced by anyone in any state of life. But truth be told, it’s one thing to know “what” to do and another thing entirely “how” to do it! The answer to “how” would seem to have much to do with being silent to self – and LISTENING.

Dave

 

[Sirach2]

Oh my, Dave, that is just what the doctor ordered! An excellent reflection from a very wise mystic! I’m going to print it out and keep it as a reminder of where to concentrate my full effort.

So if the passions of the mind choke off purity of heart . . . then the mind is where the battle must be waged.
The question, then, becomes how do we know when we have purity of heart? When we have purity of intention …

That helped to answer my question. Thanks Dave! You have a wealth of good counsel from your many sources!

 

[InLight247]

Thanks, Dave, for re-posting “Movies in Our Mind”.

Talking about the battle field of the mind, the war actually starts with diligently guarding our eyes (what to see, read), ears (what to listen, hear), mouth (what to talk, speak) , and actions (what to get involved) …… That is to do with what you mentioned “to live in simplicity”.

Our senses are like a friendly sponge, willingly or unwillingly absorbing everything comes into contact. The more absorbed, the more loaded our mind’s film becomes. When the film contains so many plots, they come out freely in prayer or any other time to distract us. Being very selective of what to take in can keep the plot simpler and pollution minimal. Even so, distractions are never lack of. It takes efforts and grace to reach true interior silence - silence of word, mind, imagination, and all passions. That’s how the word “striving” comes in.

……. mysticism without asceticism is a sham and a lie.

 

[DBT]

Talking about the battle field of the mind, the war actually starts with diligently guarding our eyes (what to see, read), ears (what to listen, hear), mouth (what to talk, speak) , and actions (what to get involved) …… That is to do with what you mentioned “to live in simplicity”.

Our senses are like a friendly sponge, willingly or unwillingly absorbing everything comes into contact. The more absorbed, the more loaded our mind’s film becomes. When the film contains so many plots, they come out freely in prayer or any other time to distract us. Being very selective of what to take in can keep the plot simpler and pollution minimal. Even so, distractions are never lack of. It takes efforts and grace to reach true interior silence - silence of word, mind, imagination, and all passions. That’s how the word “striving” comes in.

Very nice

And a very good example of how the active night of sense and active night of spirit work together for the same cause! Detachment on so many different levels!

Dave

 

[InLight247]

… how the active night of sense and active night of spirit work together for the same cause! Detachment on so many different levels!

Dave

 

[Psychotheosophy]

My misunderstanding. Thanks for clarifying.
As for detachment, this thread has plenty discussions so far.

However,

Sometimes people see,
What they want to see,
Which is unwise.

For example,

St. Thomas Aquinas,
The man I quoted regarding gluttony and Happiness,
Was a very overweight man,
Yet he was canonized as a saint (very strong willed).

Therefore,

To subtract Meaning (joy) from detachment,
Is the attachment to anything,
Yet it is self-evident,
That all people naturally desire Meaning.

Can you clarify?

 

[DBT]

To subtract Meaning (joy) from detachment,
Is the attachment to anything,
Yet it is self-evident,
That all people naturally desire Meaning.

Can you clarify?

Hi Pschotheosophy -

Nobody is saying that detachment means eliminating our joys, hopes, sorrows or fears or anything remotely like that I’m not sure how you’re drawing the conclusions you are based on what posters are saying in this thread.

The clarifications you’re looking for are all over this thread . . . a very straight forward discussion of St. John’s teaching on detachment as part of the active night of sense and spirit . . . the topic of The Ascent.

What part isn’t making sense?

Dave

 

[Sirach2]

Pschotheosophy,

I think St. John’s writings seek to move those who aspire to a close relationship with God from the base desires that one seeks solely for pleasure. This is the concupiscence that mankind struggles against due to original sin; i.e., we are prone to seek joy for personal satisfaction and pleasure, whether or not it has reference to God’s will. Early in Book I, he explained in detail the great harm our inordinate desires and appetites are, and how they war against our spirit.

Lawful acceptance of joy can be recognized whenever the object of our rejoicing moves us to God. His explanation is found in Chapter 24:5 of Book III.

Whenever a person, upon hearing music or other things, seeing agreeable objects, smelling sweet fragrance, or feeling the delight of certain tastes and delicate touches, immediately at the first movement directs his thought and the affection of his will to God, receiving more satisfaction in the thought of God than in the sensible object that caused it, and finds no gratification in the senses save for this motive,
** it is sign that he is profiting by the senses and the sensory part is a help to the spirit. The senses can then be used, because the sensorial objects serve the purpose for which God created them: that He be more known and loved through them.**

How few of us are able to use joy profitably without the necessary asceticism of bringing our attachments into right reason and use. The seemingly harsh advice St. John gives in order to set on that road is found in Book I, Chapter 13. Among the many helps he lists, these strike me as being able to temper inordinate joy:

Endeavor to be inclined always

1. 
   *]not to the most gratifying, but to the less pleasant,
   *]not to the most delightful, but to the harshest,
   *]not to wanting something, but to wanting nothing,

 

[DBT]

Hi Psychotheosophy -

What an absolutely wonderful explanation Sirach gave . . . I trust it answered your question

For my part, Psychotheosophy, I’d like to apologize for the confusion my particular style of writing might be causing. In hindsight, much of what I say might be seen as “interpretive” . . . ie, as not coming directly from the horse’s mouth (St. John of the Cross).

I was just heading out to my lunchtime prayer and I came across this wonderful explanation from the second reading of today’s Office of Readings from the Liturgy of the Hours. So I came back early and made the posting of this my prayer for it expresses in so few words everything I’ve ventured to say on your thread. While not St. John of the Cross it is, nevertheless, a wonderful synoposis of the progressive interiorization of detactment the Carmelite Doctor describes so well in “The Ascent.”
A treatise on Christian Perfection by St Gregory of Nyssa:

Christ should be manifest in our whole life

The life of the Christian has three distinguishing aspects: deeds, words and thought. Thought comes first, then words, since our words express openly the interior conclusions of the mind. Finally, after thoughts and words, comes action, for our deeds carry out what the mind has conceived. So when one of these results in our acting or speaking or thinking, we must make sure that all our thoughts, words and deeds are controlled by the divine ideal, the revelation of Christ. For then our thoughts, words and deeds will not fall short of the nobility of their implications.

What then must we do, we who have been found worthy of the name of Christ? Each of us must examine his thoughts, words and deeds, to see whether they are directed toward Christ or are turned away from him. This examination is carried out in various ways. Our deeds or our thoughts or our words are not in harmony with Christ if they issue from passion. They then bear the mark of the enemy who smears the pearl of the heart with the slime of passion, dimming and even destroying the lustre of the precious stone.

On the other hand, if they are free from and untainted by every passionate inclination, they are directed toward Christ, the author and source of peace. He is like a pure, untainted stream. If you draw from him the thoughts in your mind and the inclinations of your heart, you will show a likeness to Christ, your source and origin, as the gleaming water in a jar resembles the flowing water from which it was obtained.

For the purity of Christ and the purity that is manifest in our hearts are identical. Christ’s purity, however, is the fountainhead; ours has its source in him and flows out of him. Our life is stamped with the beauty of his thought. The inner and the outer man are harmonised in a kind of music. The mind of Christ is the controlling influence that inspires us to moderation and goodness in our behaviour. As I see it, Christian perfection consists in this: sharing the titles which express the meaning of Christ’s name, we bring out this meaning in our minds, our prayers and our way of life.

Does this help?

Dave

 

[Sirach2]

:extrahappy: Simply astounding, Dave - that God speaks in such a timely manner through the readings of the day. I’m amazed at how often this occurs, and pray that we have eyes to see, ears to hear these special words from Him, that come to us always in the nick of time.

 

[InLight247]

Pschotheosophy,

You mentioned “happiness” multiple times in your posts. No one has said we should not seek happiness. The definition of happiness could be different for different people. For one, it could be possessing all desirable things in this world, for the other it could be achieving the life time goal they set up for themselves, yet another, obtaining fame or power……
**
But what is happiness for Jesus’ followers?** We are called to be set apart, to enter the narrow gate – not living a life of pleasure, wealth, fame, power, or anything self-centered, but a life of holiness – Christ centered.

The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book two, Chapter 7
….the gate is narrow to teach that entrance through this gate of Christ involves a divestment and narrowing of the will in relation to all sensible and temporal objects by loving God more than all of them. This task belongs to the night of sense, as we have said.

…………

We can apply, then, what Christ says about the narrow gate to the sensitive part of the human person, and what he says about the constricting way to the spiritual or rational part. Since he proclaims that few find it, we ought to note the cause: Few there are with the knowledge and desire to enter into this supreme nakedness and emptiness of spirit.

The narrow gate is referring to our spiritual journey of emptying oneself and self-denial. St. John has never said not to have joy or not to have happiness in life. But the true joy and true happiness is the joy and happiness in the Lord.

Today’s Gospel reading of St. Matthew is on the narrow gate. The homily our priest gave this morning was exactly in line with St. John’s interpretation.