Prayer at Reformation Day attended by the Pope

[CompSciGuy]

Don’t get me wrong, I love our Pope. He has done some reforms in the Church that have been needed for decades. I was very excited to hear about the Jubilee Year of mercy.

I also have many, many non-Catholic friends who believe that the Pope is pro-gay marriage and teaches that all people everywhere are going to heaven, and that conversion and repentance are not necessary for salvation.

True, if you actually read what he said in context, as well as in light of Church teaching, you can reasonably believe that this is not what he is teaching. But why would a non-Catholic bother to read through the entire Catechism when they can just hear a sound blip of the Pope talking about not judging gay people and another of the Pope talking about atheists in heaven.

My point is, the way you present yourself, the words you choose… they matter. For many people, obviously, the words you choose can cause scandal, no matter how well-meaning they may be. This is the reason why many Catholics are concerned about the Holy Father’s approach. They are not being hyper-Traditionalist or overly conservative. They are being good Catholics who are concerned with the conversion of the world. Don’t be too quick to judge and criticize them using blanket terms like “traditionalist” and “conservative.”

 

[Peter_J]

Hi CompSciGuy. I’m not looking to start a debate with you; I’ll simply point out that what I said was this:

Originally Posted by phil19034
This Pope is all about reunification. He’s willing to swallow his pride to do so, which is good.

Protestants and Orthodox often quote Rome’s “attitude” as one of the reasons blocking re-unification.

The Pope is working to take that excuse away.

Of course, there will always be people finding excuses for not being ecumenical. A good excuse for some will be that the Pope is “too ecumenical”.

 

[Peter_J]

…
Cardinal Ratzinger is saying that even for both the Catholics and for the Orthodox, for whom apostolic succession is of paramount importance, the fact that we do not have regarding Lutheran ministry what we clearly have relative to both Catholic and Orthodox ministry (because of apostolic succession) does not mean that we can therefore simply deny the presence of the Lord regarding their Eucharist.

Interesting.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Hi CompSciGuy. I’m not looking to start a debate with you; I’ll simply point out that what I said was this:

Alright, but that is exactly the kind of criticism that has been directed point blank at anyone in these threads who expresses even the remotest concern with what the Pope is doing. It is often presented as a straw man argument against such criticism without actually addressing any concerns.

 

[Peter_J]

Alright, but that is exactly the kind of criticism that has been directed point blank at anyone in these threads who expresses even the remotest concern with what the Pope is doing. It is often presented as a straw man argument against such criticism without actually addressing any concerns.

I guess you remember this thread a lot differently than I do!

 

[Peter_J]

Btw, I find it slightly strange the way people keep talking about “what the Pope is doing”. We’re not talking about a one-man operation here (dogmas about the papacy notwithstanding).

 

[JustaServant]

Alright, but that is exactly the kind of criticism that has been directed point blank at anyone in these threads who expresses even the remotest concern with what the Pope is doing. It is often presented as a straw man argument against such criticism without actually addressing any concerns.

I would hardly call “abandoning orthodoxy and applauding error” in regard to Pope Francis “concern”.

I applaud the Pope for trying bridge gaps that have been festering for 500 years.
Maybe you need to re-examine the prayer Catholics recite every Mass.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy.
And this is from a revert who spent 20 years across the Tiber.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Am I to understand, then, that the truth is subject to change? Is that how I am to interpret your words? Is this the teaching of the Church?

Awareness grows. Understanding grows. Knowledge grows.

Pope Saint John Paul II in Ut Unum Sint, from paragraph 2 and 3.

*Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people’s minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.

1. At the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church committed herself irrevocably to following the path of the ecumenical venture, thus heeding the Spirit of the Lord, who teaches people to interpret carefully the “signs of the times” . The experiences of these years have made the Church even more profoundly aware of her identity and her mission in history. The Catholic Church acknowledges and confesses the weaknesses of her members, conscious that their sins are so many betrayals of and obstacles to the accomplishment of the Saviour’s plan. Because she feels herself constantly called to be renewed in the spirit of the Gospel, she does not cease to do penance. At the same time, she acknowledges and exalts still more the power of the Lord, who fills her with the gift of holiness, leads her forward, and conforms her to his Passion and Resurrection.*

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Also from Ut Unum Sint:

1. The Decree Unitatis Redintegratio also indicates a criterion to be followed when Catholics are presenting or comparing doctrines: "They should remember that in Catholic teaching there exists an order or ‘hierarchy’ of truths, since they vary in their relationship to the foundation of the Christian faith. /…/
2. In dialogue, one inevitably comes up against the problem of the different formulations whereby doctrine is expressed in the various Churches and Ecclesial Communities. This has more than one consequence for the work of ecumenism.

In the first place, with regard to doctrinal formulations which differ from those normally in use in the community to which one belongs, it is certainly right to determine whether the words involved say the same thing. This has been ascertained in the case for example of the recent common declarations signed by my Predecessors or by myself with the Patriarchs of Churches with which for centuries there have been disputes about Christology. As far as the formulation of revealed truths is concerned, the Declaration Mysterium Ecclesiae states: “Even though the truths which the Church intends to teach through her dogmatic formulas are distinct from the changeable conceptions of a given epoch and can be expressed without them, nevertheless it can sometimes happen that these truths may be enunciated by the Sacred Magisterium in terms that bear traces of such conceptions. In view of this, it must be stated that the dogmatic formulas of the Church’s Magisterium were from the very beginning suitable for communicating revealed truth, and that as they are they remain for ever suitable for communicating this truth to those who interpret them correctly”.64 In this regard, ecumenical dialogue, which prompts the parties involved to question each other, to understand each other and to explain their positions to each other, makes surprising discoveries possible. Intolerant polemics and controversies have made incompatible assertions out of what was really the result of two different ways of looking at the same reality. Nowadays we need to find the formula which, by capturing the reality in its entirety, will enable us to move beyond partial readings and eliminate false interpretations.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Btw, I find it slightly strange the way people keep talking about “what the Pope is doing”. We’re not talking about a one-man operation here (dogmas about the papacy notwithstanding).

Indeed.

The joint commemoration by Catholics and Lutherans of the Reformation will begin this October, with the Holy Father’s visit to Sweden. That will inaugurate the events. The commemoration will go on for a year, as the 500th anniversary is in October 2017, with events throughout that year.

While our Holy Father will be providing leadership, The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity will be very active since this is a global initiative. All the bishops of the Catholic world will be able to hold events in their own dioceses, in conjunction with the Lutherans, and these are taking shape and are beginning to be announced.

Certainly, I am looking forward with great hope that, in spite of being retired, I will have the opportunity to co-preside at a Ceremony of Common Prayer, using the new ritual just co-produced by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. I will consider co-presiding at such a ceremony truly a capstone moment after decades spent in dialogue.

 

[Third_Day]

I beg your pardon? “There is so much wrong with the bishops document”? I would be very glad for you to explain to me the basis for your analysis, since you find it wrong, and the theological methodology you use to arrive at that conclusion – on an issue I have worked upon, as a theologian, for many many years.
.

You don’t see anything “wrong” with that document? Please explain what the document is saying. If I were a Lutheran why be Catholic? It appears they have the Real Presence. That’s news to me.

The document says Catholics and Lutherans agree. It used the word they and them which can only refer to both Catholics and Lutherans. It says “the risen Christ given to them”…They receive his body and blood"…believers have access to the glorified flesh"…it says WE agree that Christ himself is present…

“Lutherans and Catholics agree in esteeming highly the spiritual benefits of union with the risen Christ given to them as they receive his body and blood in Holy Communion. Trinitarian Dimension of Eucharist (28) Catholics and Lutherans agree that in Eucharistic worship the church participates in a unique way in the life of the Trinity: In the power of the Holy Spirit, called down upon the gifts and the worshiping community, believers have access to the glorified flesh and blood of Christ the Son as our food, and are brought in union with him and with each other to the Father.”

“Eucharistic Presence (30) Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being”

If this were about the Orthodox you would expect this kind of wording but it’s about Lutherans

Later it goes on to talk about transubstantiation and what Lutherans believe and it states:

“Both traditional Catholic and traditional Lutheran approaches, then, different as they are in expression, affirm Christ’s real, substantial presence in the sacrament. In the faith of both churches, when one receives the Eucharistic elements or species, one truly receives the body and blood of Christ in a sacramental way, and so comes into communion with Christ, in order to be on pilgrimage with him.”

It says right there “In the faith of BOTH churches, when one receives the Eucharist elements or species, one truly receives the body and blood of Christ.”

On mode of presence it says:

“However, members of the international Joint Commission (1978) have suggested that this difference in understanding the mode of presence need not be church-dividing ………“Catholics, on the other hand, should recognize that a clear and unambiguous affirmation of the real presence of Christ—as is indeed given by the Lutheran side—can no longer form the subject of an anathema sit “let that person be anathema”.

Yes, I think there is a lot wrong with the document…it’s wording.

Don, do they have the Real Presence? Do Lutherans receive the glorified flesh and blood of Christ?

 

[JustaServant]

You don’t see anything “wrong” with that document? Please explain what the document is saying. If I were a Lutheran why be Catholic? It appears they have the Real Presence. That’s news to me.

The document says Catholics and Lutherans agree. It used the word they and them which can only refer to both Catholics and Lutherans. It says “the risen Christ given to them”…They receive his body and blood"…believers have access to the glorified flesh"…it says WE agree that Christ himself is present…

“Lutherans and Catholics agree in esteeming highly the spiritual benefits of union with the risen Christ given to them as they receive his body and blood in Holy Communion. Trinitarian Dimension of Eucharist (28) Catholics and Lutherans agree that in Eucharistic worship the church participates in a unique way in the life of the Trinity: In the power of the Holy Spirit, called down upon the gifts and the worshiping community, believers have access to the glorified flesh and blood of Christ the Son as our food, and are brought in union with him and with each other to the Father.”

“Eucharistic Presence (30) Lutherans and Catholics agree that in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, Jesus Christ himself is present: He is present truly, substantially, as a person, and he is present in his entirety, as Son of God and a human being”

If this were about the Orthodox you would expect this kind of wording but it’s about Lutherans

Later it goes on to talk about transubstantiation and what Lutherans believe and it states:

“Both traditional Catholic and traditional Lutheran approaches, then, different as they are in expression, affirm Christ’s real, substantial presence in the sacrament. In the faith of both churches, when one receives the Eucharistic elements or species, one truly receives the body and blood of Christ in a sacramental way, and so comes into communion with Christ, in order to be on pilgrimage with him.”

It says right there “In the faith of BOTH churches, when one receives the Eucharist elements or species, one truly receives the body and blood of Christ.”

On mode of presence it says:

“However, members of the international Joint Commission (1978) have suggested that this difference in understanding the mode of presence need not be church-dividing ………“Catholics, on the other hand, should recognize that a clear and unambiguous affirmation of the real presence of Christ—as is indeed given by the Lutheran side—can no longer form the subject of an anathema sit “let that person be anathema”.

Yes, I think there is a lot wrong with the document…it’s wording.

Don, do they have the Real Presence? Do Lutherans receive the glorified flesh and blood of Christ?

You might find the key words there are:

**traditional **Catholic and traditional Lutheran approaches

 

[CompSciGuy]

I would hardly call “abandoning orthodoxy and applauding error” in regard to Pope Francis “concern”.

I applaud the Pope for trying bridge gaps that have been festering for 500 years.
Maybe you need to re-examine the prayer Catholics recite every Mass.
Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy.
And this is from a revert who spent 20 years across the Tiber.

I am sorry for that post, it has been deleted and I have been corrected for it.
But I do not think that what you have posted addresses the concerns raised in this thread.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I guess you remember this thread a lot differently than I do!

There have been multiple threads on this topic… surely you know this. I believe I saw your posts in those other threads.

 

[SyroMalankara]

A better wording would be “in the respective faith of each Lutherans and Catholics, Christ is received truly… etc” Although, I’m not certain that is accurate either. Lutherans recognize Catholic sacraments, don’t they?

 

[JustaServant]

I am sorry for that post, it has been deleted and I have been corrected for it.
But I do not think that what you have posted addresses the concerns raised in this thread.

You’re overthinking this Comp.
Father Ruggero gave you a very complete answer:

Intolerant polemics and controversies have made incompatible assertions out of what was really the result of two different ways of looking at the same reality. Nowadays we need to find the formula which, by capturing the reality in its entirety, will enable us to move beyond partial readings and eliminate false interpretations.

Have you ever been party to a debate in which the Catholic and the Protestant are heatedly arguing faith and works? And you realize the BOTH of them are saying the same thing, but in different ways? And all they are doing is arguing the definition of words and not getting to the heart of the matter, or the reality?
In truth, I have NEVER met a Catholic “working their way to Heaven”, just as I have NEVER met a Protestant who says “faith is all I need, I’ll just hang out until the Rapture”.
Catholics have to move beyond the rigid pronouncements of radical traditionalists, the fundamentalists of Catholicism. And into the arena of communication that will resolve differences.
Rigidity without mercy gets us nowhere.

 

[Peter_J]

There have been multiple threads on this topic… surely you know this. I believe I saw your posts in those other threads.

True. And I don’t deny that there are concerns – don’t forget that my first post on this thread said

Actually I’m glad that this has come up again (and on the NCRF section – I don’t spend very much time on the Traditional section). A couple weeks ago when I read the text, I intended to post a comment about it, but got busy with other things and forgot about it.

IIRC, I was going to quote this part,

and say something super smart like “That seems a little one sided.”

However, the concerns from traditionalist Catholics seem to me a bit … different.

 

[steido01]

Lutherans recognize Catholic sacraments, don’t they?

In a word, yes.

 

[GKC]

In a word, yes.

In a word from another source, Anglicans too.

Generally.

 

[commenter]

Originally Posted by SyroMalankara View Post
Lutherans recognize Catholic sacraments, don’t they?

In a word, yes.

Re: Holy Orders
Catechism of the Catholic Church
877
" Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. … 396 For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college." Also confer later sections, especially on teaching ministry of this sacrament, 888 - 892.

My understanding is that Lutherans would accept the sacramental conferral to the episcopacy in the authority for pastoral care within his diocese, but would have difficulty with the teaching role Catholics associate with the sacrament. (My personal suspicion is that some Lutherans are increasingly open to the Catholic understanding of the episcopal teaching authority than they used to be, but others - especially “mainline” Christians - are not. Lutherans, like everyone else, are aware of the trends of the past 50 years).