Prayer at Reformation Day attended by the Pope

[Third_Day]

What Cardinal Ratzinger said is that an absence of apostolic succession does not preclude the salvation-granting presence of the Lord Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in the Lord’s Supper celebrated by the Lutherans.

And that would apply to the Baptist’s communion as well?

If my neighbor has the Lord’s Supper in his home, the “salvation-granting presence of the Lord” takes place?

 

[Son_of_Niall]

And that would apply to the Baptist’s communion as well?

If my neighbor has the Lord’s Supper in his home, the “salvation-granting presence of the Lord” takes place?

You’re being very rude to a Catholic priest who is simply trying to explain it to you. Putting words in his mouth is dis-respect.
As to the point of the post, there is a difference between the Sacrament of Holy Orders and apostolic succession. Your argument is with Pope Benedict.

 

[Peter_J]

Third Day, if I might piggyback on Son Of Neil’s post, I’ve been reading your posts on this thread up to now; but I’m going to stop now because I’ve grown tired of the endless repetition of your complaints against the bishops. Good day to you.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Third Day, if I might piggyback on Son Of Neil’s post, I’ve been reading your posts on this thread up to now; but I’m going to stop now because I’ve grown tired of the endless repetition of your complaints against the bishops. Good day to you.

And I also take the opportunity to add to the comments of Peter J and Son of Niall that I am ceasing further response. If people are sincerely wishing to understand and engage with the initiatives of the Holy See, that is one thing. Being an occasion for rude and demeaning comments or theologically absurd remarks is quite a different matter. Especially when the demeaning also touches exceptionally gifted Cardinals.

I hope the readers of this thread will choose to avail themselves of the documents available from the Holy See…specifically the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity…so that they may understand the thoughts and the initiatives of our Holy Father and the Roman Curia.

 

[steido01]

Well, I can say for certain that the Marthoma Syrians in Union with the Anglicans explicitly mention consubstantiation as a valid option (among many).

In fact, their hodgepodge is so nonsensical that it makes the montley Anglicans seem cohesive.
marthoma.in/faq - Frequently asked questions

Does Marthoma church believe that the “appam”(Bread) and veenju” will become Jesus “Shariram(Body) and Raktham(Blood)” in Holy Qurbano.
(in collaboration with the Professors of Dharmajyoti VidyaPeeth, Faridabad)
No, we dont believe that the Appam and Veenju become Jesus’ real body and blood.

At times they say all of the theories trans, con, etc are valid and at other times they say ‘receptionism’ - that is, whatever the believer believes - is what occurs. That is, when they are not denying it as only a symbol.

Yikes.

 

[Third_Day]

You’re being very rude to a Catholic priest who is simply trying to explain it to you. Putting words in his mouth is dis-respect.
As to the point of the post, there is a difference between the Sacrament of Holy Orders and apostolic succession. Your argument is with Pope Benedict.

I’ve never seen such thin skin. All I’m doing is asking questions. Isn’t the Sacrament of Holy Order directly related to apostolic succession? I’m not arguing with Pope Benedict.I’ just asking.

 

[Third_Day]

Being an occasion for rude and demeaning comments or theologically absurd remarks is quite a different matter. Especially when the demeaning also touches exceptionally gifted Cardinals.

Please show me where I made “rude and demeaning comments.”

Why is it theologically absurd to ask if a Baptism minister or my neighbor, who may truly believe in the Real Presence" cannot have a valid consecration if apostolic succession is unnecessary?

The Lutherans don’t have apostolic succession so how could they possibly have the Real Presence?

If these questions offend you, I’m sorry.

 

[In_His_Grace]

And I also take the opportunity to add to the comments of Peter J and Son of Niall that I am ceasing further response. If people are sincerely wishing to understand and engage with the initiatives of the Holy See, that is one thing. Being an occasion for rude and demeaning comments or theologically absurd remarks is quite a different matter. Especially when the demeaning also touches exceptionally gifted Cardinals.

I hope the readers of this thread will choose to avail themselves of the documents available from the Holy See…specifically the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity…so that they may understand the thoughts and the initiatives of our Holy Father and the Roman Curia.

Praying for Christian unity Father. I have no idea if this is even possible or what such unity would even look like.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

amen

In His Grace

 

[Peter_J]

Praying for Christian unity Father. I have no idea if this is even possible or what such unity would even look like.

Glad to hear it. Though at the same time, I think our feelings about that are somewhat mixed, inasmuch as two or three generations ago “praying for Christian unity” was synonymous with praying that you guys realize that you’re wrong and we’re right.

 

[Reuben_J]

Glad to hear it. Though at the same time, I think our feelings about that are somewhat mixed, inasmuch as two or three generations ago “praying for Christian unity” was synonymous with praying that you guys realize that you’re wrong and we’re right.

Certainly, especially for Catholics who have not heard much. Any unity is sought at and welcomed but it take time for new development to sink in. Like any good Catholics we are taught to be obedient but it would be hard to accept anything that seemingly deviates from the traditional belief. Thus the needs for explanation and information. CAF members maybe are more privileged but our church going ordinary folks may not be that fortunate and probably would feel more scandalized.

 

[Peter_J]

Any unity is sought at and welcomed

Uh … No.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Praying for Christian unity Father. I have no idea if this is even possible or what such unity would even look like.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

amen

In His Grace

As I too pray for Christian Unity. And as Pope Saint John Paul II reminded us so often, that is a critical component. He reminds us via the remarkable woman, Maria Gabriella of Unity, a cloistered nun he beatified.

Via the Trappistines one can read about Blessed Maria Gabriella:
trappistevitorchiano.it/immagini/storia/beata-maria-gabriella/articoli/Articolo-inglese-Mark.pdf

I hope you have read Ut Unum Sint.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint.html

Written by Pope Saint John Paul II, it articulates so beautifully how far we have progressed by God’s action and grace.

The Pope understood the ecumenical imperative and he lived it intensely, firstly in his own life, then at the Council, and then in his pontificate. From seeing such as that in my young days, now I have the joy of seeing a new generation – both men & women, clerics & laity – to take the work since the Council much further.

What eventual unity will look like, only the Lord Jesus knows. And that is as it should be. As St. John Paul II said in Ut Unum Sint:
42. It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ. I have personally been able many times to observe this during the ecumenical celebrations which are an important part of my Apostolic Visits to various parts of the world, and also in the meetings and ecumenical celebrations which have taken place in Rome. The “universal brotherhood” of Christians has become a firm ecumenical conviction.
The beauty and joy of a project like From Conflict to Communion includes new and better concepts about the retelling of the past. The events of the Reformation, in reality, were a flash point emerging from very profound dysfunction that reached a critical mass and affected (and was affected by) the whole fabric of societies. The contributions of historians, who are looking at the events afresh and without predetermined conclusions, will do so much in terms of giving future generations a more balanced picture of those realities.

As we read in From Conflict to Communion:
*18. Research has contributed much to changing the perception of the past in a number of ways. In the case of the Reformation, these include the Protestant as well as the Catholic accounts of church history, which have been able to correct previous confessional depictions of history through strict methodological guidelines and reflection on the conditions of their own points of view and presuppositions. On the Catholic side that applies especially to the newer research on Luther and Reformation and, on the Protestant side, to an altered picture of medieval theology and to a broader and more differentiated treatment of the late Middle Ages. In current depictions of the Reformation period, there is also new attention to a vast number of non-theological factors—political, economic, social, and cultural. The paradigm of “confessionalization” has made important corrections to previous historiography of the period. *
If you haven’t read From Conflict to Communion, you should. It is available online from the Holy See, from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

For me, even though I’m more theologian than historian (although my faculty had me teaching more history at times in my career), I’m almost as gratified by the developments in historiography as I am theology. One of the concepts in the process that is underway is the “purification of memories” and that will be done much less by theologians than historians.

As bishops from both confessions have said:
*In 2017, Catholic and Lutheran Christians will most fittingly look back on events that occurred 500 years earlier by putting the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center.

The true unity of the church can only exist as unity in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fact that the struggle for this truth in the sixteenth century led to the loss of unity in Western Christendom belongs to the dark pages of church history. In 2017, we must confess openly that we have been guilty before Christ of damaging the unity of the church. This commemorative year presents us with two challenges: the purification and healing of memories, and the restoration of Christian unity in accordance with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4–6).
*
Thank you for the post you wrote. It was a pleasure to read and to have the memories evoked that you called forth. God bless you.

 

[In_His_Grace]

As I too pray for Christian Unity. And as Pope Saint John Paul II reminded us so often, that is a critical component. He reminds us via the remarkable woman, Maria Gabriella of Unity, a cloistered nun he beatified.

Via the Trappistines one can read about Blessed Maria Gabriella:
trappistevitorchiano.it/immagini/storia/beata-maria-gabriella/articoli/Articolo-inglese-Mark.pdf

I hope you have read Ut Unum Sint.

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint.html

Written by Pope Saint John Paul II, it articulates so beautifully how far we have progressed by God’s action and grace.

The Pope understood the ecumenical imperative and he lived it intensely, firstly in his own life, then at the Council, and then in his pontificate. From seeing such as that in my young days, now I have the joy of seeing a new generation – both men & women, clerics & laity – to take the work since the Council much further.

What eventual unity will look like, only the Lord Jesus knows. And that is as it should be. As St. John Paul II said in Ut Unum Sint:
42. It happens for example that, in the spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, Christians of one confession no longer consider other Christians as enemies or strangers but see them as brothers and sisters. Again, the very expression separated brethren tends to be replaced today by expressions which more readily evoke the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions. Today we speak of “other Christians”, “others who have received Baptism”, and “Christians of other Communities”. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism refers to the Communities to which these Christians belong as “Churches and Ecclesial Communities that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church”. This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ. I have personally been able many times to observe this during the ecumenical celebrations which are an important part of my Apostolic Visits to various parts of the world, and also in the meetings and ecumenical celebrations which have taken place in Rome. The “universal brotherhood” of Christians has become a firm ecumenical conviction.
The beauty and joy of a project like From Conflict to Communion includes new and better concepts about the retelling of the past. The events of the Reformation, in reality, were a flash point emerging from very profound dysfunction that reached a critical mass and affected (and was affected by) the whole fabric of societies. The contributions of historians, who are looking at the events afresh and without predetermined conclusions, will do so much in terms of giving future generations a more balanced picture of those realities.

As we read in From Conflict to Communion:
*18. Research has contributed much to changing the perception of the past in a number of ways. In the case of the Reformation, these include the Protestant as well as the Catholic accounts of church history, which have been able to correct previous confessional depictions of history through strict methodological guidelines and reflection on the conditions of their own points of view and presuppositions. On the Catholic side that applies especially to the newer research on Luther and Reformation and, on the Protestant side, to an altered picture of medieval theology and to a broader and more differentiated treatment of the late Middle Ages. In current depictions of the Reformation period, there is also new attention to a vast number of non-theological factors—political, economic, social, and cultural. The paradigm of “confessionalization” has made important corrections to previous historiography of the period. *
If you haven’t read From Conflict to Communion, you should. It is available online from the Holy See, from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

For me, even though I’m more theologian than historian (although my faculty had me teaching more history at times in my career), I’m almost as gratified by the developments in historiography as I am theology. One of the concepts in the process that is underway is the “purification of memories” and that will be done much less by theologians than historians.

As bishops from both confessions have said:
*In 2017, Catholic and Lutheran Christians will most fittingly look back on events that occurred 500 years earlier by putting the gospel of Jesus Christ at the center.

The true unity of the church can only exist as unity in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fact that the struggle for this truth in the sixteenth century led to the loss of unity in Western Christendom belongs to the dark pages of church history. In 2017, we must confess openly that we have been guilty before Christ of damaging the unity of the church. This commemorative year presents us with two challenges: the purification and healing of memories, and the restoration of Christian unity in accordance with the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4–6).
*
Thank you for the post you wrote. It was a pleasure to read and to have the memories evoked that you called forth. God bless you.

Thanks and God bless you as well.

In His Grace

 

[In_His_Grace]

Glad to hear it. Though at the same time, I think our feelings about that are somewhat mixed, inasmuch as two or three generations ago “praying for Christian unity” was synonymous with praying that you guys realize that you’re wrong and we’re right.

I get your point Peter. I expect Father Don is right…

What eventual unity will look like, only the Lord Jesus knows. And that is as it should be.

In His Grace