Prayer for, not to, Satan

[Onegin]

prayer for someone in hell is useless

the only one we know for certain who is in hell is Satan

That assumes that Our Lady of Fatima made a mistake then, when she showed the children the vision of Hell with souls falling into it like raindrops.

Sometimes I think that if Satan’s greatest lie was convincing the world that he doesn’t exist then his second greatest lie must be convincing the world that people don’t necessarily go to Hell.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well, 2 things:

1. Our Lady of Fatima was private revelation and thus not infallible. I believe it, but you don’t have to.
2. The only individual person that we know for sure is in Hell is Satan. Our Lady might have shown the shepherd children many people falling into Hell, but they recognized no individual faces as far as I know.
3. People DON’T necessarily go to Hell. God damns nobody to Hell. He invites all of us to Heaven. We damn ourselves.

 

[Onegin]

Well, 2 things:

1. Our Lady of Fatima was private revelation and thus not infallible. I believe it, but you don’t have to.
2. The only individual person that we know for sure is in Hell is Satan. Our Lady might have shown the shepherd children many people falling into Hell, but they recognized no individual faces as far as I know.
3. People DON’T necessarily go to Hell. God damns nobody to Hell. He invites all of us to Heaven. We damn ourselves.

Not exactly sure how this view that Hell isn’t a real threat has permeated Catholic teaching. It’s something that the Unitarians and Seventh-Day Adventists teach, but in recent years it seems like Catholics too have distorted the teaching on Hell into this place that is sparsely populated.

I won’t argue with Fatima (though it seems silly to discount it) however, Jesus Himself taught us that those who go to Hell are many and those who are saved are few:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt. 7:13–14)

 

[mandateman]

Angels are given instantaneous knowledge. That means they received knowledge without study. Each angel is unique with varying amounts of knowledge, beauty etc.

They are not made with absolute infinite knowledge they have a complete knowledge of physical nature etc. science, math things like that.

At least one third of all the angels made by God became devils. “One third of the stars were knocked down from the sky”

Angels do not and never had free will. Please dont make stuff up. They were created with sufficient knowledge and a concrete will. Free will and reason are a result of having an immortal soul angels do not have immortal souls because they were created immortal beings.

They have no freedom and are residents of hell themselves. They are however used by God to test and sanctify his creation. The devil is like a mad dog on a very short leash completely controlled by God. He is used to assist people on the way to holiness become more holy by suffering through persecutions and temptations etc.

The devil’s cooperation in this is not of his free will because he has no free will he is the evil puppet in God’s plan. There many billions of devils. One third of the angels lost the angels are present in many billions also. Each person has their own unique guardian angel as well as many other duties fulfilled in creation by the Holy angels. Perhaps God created 300 Billion angels that would make about 100 Billion devils. We have a big fight on our hands. The devil within parameters set by God seeks to destroy God’s handiwork within those parameters he is free to act. He may from time to time ask for special permission to persecute someone specific as in the story of Job but in general people like that become saints.

 

[Karmartia]

I wonder if the Holy Father declared an international day of prayer for Satan, and all the Church and the Saints in Heaven and the Blessed Mother prayed for repentance of the Devil all at once, would it make any difference? He has made up his mind. In one way you could say that Satan and God are alike: they both want your soul. God so that he can feed it and nurture it, make it grow and bear fruit, and endure with Him forever. Satan so he can devour it. Don’t waste your time praying for Satan.

 

[bradwilcox]

I don’t recall who said it, but something like “the Devil’s most audacious lie is to convince souls that he himself doesn’t exist and that hell doesn’t exist”. This is clearly apparent when one looks at how man behaves in this world.

This lie can quickly and scarily be corrected when one reads the better accounts of infamous exorcisms. The transcripts can really snap us out of it. I recommend we all read, with a grain of salt!, two transcripts. One is on EWTN’s site and is an account of an exorcism in 1920/1930s Iowa. The other is an enormous exorcism that took place over 8 (?) years in Switzerland in the 1970s. Both are findable via google.

 

[LilyM]

Really? I could be wrong, but I’m almost sure that the Church’s teaching on Angels is that they do indeed have free will.

I’ve never heard the Church teach this, rather the contrary (as already stated, the angels were given one chance to make their choice for or against God and after that their wills were fixed.

In any event the teaching of the Church about Hell is clear enough. It is real, and the wills of those who are consigned there are eternally fixed against God. Thus they cannot repent and cannot be saved.

The teaching of the Church about the devil is also clear enough. As per scripture, Satan is indeed an inhabitant of Hell. Being such, his will is also eternally fixed against God, thus there is no possibility of his repenting or being saved.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I never said that there weren’t many people in Hell, nor did I say that Hell wasn’t a real threat. What I said is that nobody is destined for Hell. That (being destined for Hell) would be the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. We’re all destined for Heaven, we choose Hell. Moreover, I have no idea who is or isn’t in Hell except for Satan. Only God knows the state of people’s hearts.

As for angels, I’m still pretty sure they have free will. Here is a link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=323176&highlight=angels+free+will

It does not expressly state that the angels had free will but it does say this:

"To be in heaven means to directly behold God in the beatific vision. Christian theologians speculate – and please note that word, “speculate” – that the angels must have been subject to some sort of test (the nature of which we don’t know) before being granted the beatific vision because some of them rejected God and fell. To have fallen, the rebel angels could not have had the beatific vision because those experiencing the beatific vision cannot fall. Those who passed the test were then granted the beatific vision and cannot now fall.

Those who experience the beatific vision are not deprived of free will. They have the free will to do all that is within their ability to do. They cannot fall because they no longer have the ability to do so. As an analogy, man cannot fly under his own power not because he doesn’t have free will but because he doesn’t have wings. He is incapable of auto-flight because of how he is made. In a similar fashion, those who enter heaven cannot fall because they no longer have the capability to do so."

…Which seems to imply free will.

I’ll pose the question directly though.

 

[Hesychios]

That assumes that Our Lady of Fatima made a mistake then, when…

I don’t think it is helpful to bring messages from apparitions into serious theological discussion.

In themselves they carry no weight of authority.

 

[Hesychios]

Angels are given instantaneous knowledge. That means they received knowledge without study. Each angel is unique with varying amounts of knowledge, beauty etc.

They are not made with absolute infinite knowledge they have a complete knowledge of physical nature etc. science, math things like that.

At least one third of all the angels made by God became devils. “One third of the stars were knocked down from the sky”

Angels do not and never had free will. Please dont make stuff up. They were created with sufficient knowledge and a concrete will. Free will and reason are a result of having an immortal soul angels do not have immortal souls because they were created immortal beings.

They have no freedom and are residents of hell themselves. They are however used by God to test and sanctify his creation. The devil is like a mad dog on a very short leash completely controlled by God. He is used to assist people on the way to holiness become more holy by suffering through persecutions and temptations etc.

The devil’s cooperation in this is not of his free will because he has no free will he is the evil puppet in God’s plan. There many billions of devils. One third of the angels lost the angels are present in many billions also. Each person has their own unique guardian angel as well as many other duties fulfilled in creation by the Holy angels. Perhaps God created 300 Billion angels that would make about 100 Billion devils. We have a big fight on our hands. The devil within parameters set by God seeks to destroy God’s handiwork within those parameters he is free to act. He may from time to time ask for special permission to persecute someone specific as in the story of Job but in general people like that become saints.

Can you provide references to support your positions?

I am not questioning the “one third of angels fell” contention …

Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.

Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.
Rev 12:3-4

Your possible exegesis of Rev 12 seems to make sense and is a common reading, but I need to know a source or sources for the rest. A few links or book references would be helpful here.

Thanks,

 

[choy]

Not exactly sure how this view that Hell isn’t a real threat has permeated Catholic teaching. It’s something that the Unitarians and Seventh-Day Adventists teach, but in recent years it seems like Catholics too have distorted the teaching on Hell into this place that is sparsely populated.

I won’t argue with Fatima (though it seems silly to discount it) however, Jesus Himself taught us that those who go to Hell are many and those who are saved are few:

“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt. 7:13–14)

the truth is, we don’t know if there are many or few who are in hell. only God knows

 

[choy]

from the CCC, underlined and bolded that angels do have free choice

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

 

[po18guy]

I asked this in Ask an Apologist, no reply yet, and I’m curious as to the answer…

Jesus says we should pray for our enemies. This is a fact as taught by the Church and the Bible. I do this normally and have had no trouble at all with this teaching.

Then I read a quote somewhere, I believe from Mark Twain, who pointed out that Satan is the ultimate enemy yet nobody prayed for him. This struck me as a good point, so I said a prayer that Satan would stop his temptation of souls and that, despite his case being hopeless, he would be shown mercy and after repenting be allowed to come back to Christ.

Is this sinful? I would think probably not, but I want to be sure. I’m also pretty sure that if it is grave matter it’s still not a mortal sin because of lack of sufficient knowledge…Thoughts?

The Church teaches that angels make one choice for all eternity. No turning back, and no repentance. We should not pray for him, as it is ineffectual and opposes God’s plan of punishment for all who disobey.

 

[Holly3278]

Satan has already been condemned to Hell. There is no hope whatsoever for Satan. Therefore, praying for God to have mercy on him would be pretty much useless.

 

[Onegin]

I don’t think it is helpful to bring messages from apparitions into serious theological discussion.

In themselves they carry no weight of authority.

Given the stuff that people bring into arguments in this forum, I would have thought Fatima to be fairly reputable but that’s fine.

I hope the Bible is considered more reputable as, if you look at my previous post, you’ll see I used it after the first poster complained about my use of the Fatima example.

the truth is, we don’t know if there are many or few who are in hell. only God knows

And God has told us that there are many who choose the easy path and end up in Hell:

“Enter by the narrow gate;** for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many**. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt. 7:13–14)(Emphasis mine)

The point of my argument isn’t to try and pick out individual people that you or I or anyone else thinks is in Hell specifically but to refute the argument that we supposedly can’t be sure that ANYONE is in Hell or that it is possible that Satan and his demons are the only inhabitants of Hell.

Both Christ and that totally unreliable apparition of our Lady of Fatima have told us that there are many unfortunate souls in Hell, (thus implying, I would hope, that Hell is a very real threat). We just don’t know who they are specifically.

Bottom line: pray for all the dead. Assuming that Hell may just as well be unpopulated is a very unwise thing to do.

 

[mandateman]

Wow, it is one thing to state that the visions of Fatima are not dogmatic and they are not required to believe to get to heaven but that is entirely different then saying that the apparitions of Fatima are unreliable. These are approved apparitions that the Church has publicly declared are good and worthy of belief.

It is probably a sacralige to say they are unreliable. We have many saints also who have been canonized by our church who have had visions of hell and they have assured us that hell is far from empty of humans. When Jesus talked about lazarus and the rich man wasnt He telling the truth. My only worry about if people going to hell is that they may end up with more humans then Heaven.

The church states that any person who dies with even only one unforgiven mortal sin on their soul will be damned. They also teach that only those who die in a state of sactifying grace can go to heaven. The Church doesnt teach that there is no proof anyone went to hell they teach that they do not know which ones do or dont meet the criteria but most of us who know our freinds well know who really had a chance.

I have a freind who believes that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins so it is okay to commit as many as you can because they are pre-forgiven. Do you think that attitude would mitigate the breaking of the commandments to only venial sins or do you believe that God expects a small degree of using your common sense.

 

[Onegin]

Mandateman,

If you read my posts in context, you’ll quickly understand how the use of sarcasm played into my last post. Specifically, I referred to the Apparition of Fatima as “unreliable” in response to an earlier poster who claimed that we can’t necessarily know if there are people in Hell (despite what our Lady of Fatima said) because Fatima is non-dogmatic.

We cool? Ok.

I agree with what I think is the underlying point of your post, namely that we can’t know exactly who goes to Hell but that we do know that people go there. A lot of people.

As for protestants, I am aware that some believe that their sins are forgiven once and for all when they are saved. I think this is one attempt to mitigate the need for the Sacrament of Confession and absolution.

 

[po18guy]

Really? I could be wrong, but I’m almost sure that the Church’s teaching on Angels is that they do indeed have free will.

Yes, all angels have free will as part of their being. However, the Catechism teaches us in CCC392, in part, “Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.This ‘fall’ consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and iirrevocably rejected God and His reign”. CCC393 teaches, in part, “It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as their is no repentance for men after death”.

Sources of this teaching are the Gospel of John, the first Letter of John, and Saint John Damascene.

Thus, the fallen angels’ evil is eternal, and they are punished just as are unrepentant sinners, in unquenchable fire and eternal separation from God.

 

[choy]

And God has told us that there are many who choose the easy path and end up in Hell:

“Enter by the narrow gate;** for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many**. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt. 7:13–14)(Emphasis mine)

The point of my argument isn’t to try and pick out individual people that you or I or anyone else thinks is in Hell specifically but to refute the argument that we supposedly can’t be sure that ANYONE is in Hell or that it is possible that Satan and his demons are the only inhabitants of Hell.

Both Christ and that totally unreliable apparition of our Lady of Fatima have told us that there are many unfortunate souls in Hell, (thus implying, I would hope, that Hell is a very real threat). We just don’t know who they are specifically.

Bottom line: pray for all the dead. Assuming that Hell may just as well be unpopulated is a very unwise thing to do.

yes and Jesus said if one sheep went astray, he’ll leave the 99 others to seek the one that has gone astray

one person in hell might be too may for God. i think it is for certain that He desires ALL of us to be with Him in heaven

my point is, we don’t know who else is in hell. the only thing for certain is Satan is in hell. thats the only sure answer. we can debate 'til the end of time, but the only thing we will agree on is that Satan is in hell because thats the only fact we have.

and i’m not saying that nobody else is in hell, because like i said, my point is we don’t know.

 

[Hesychios]

Wow, it is one thing to state that the visions of Fatima are not dogmatic and they are not required to believe to get to heaven but that is entirely different then saying that the apparitions of Fatima are unreliable.

I don’t recall anyone seriously posting that the apparitions are unreliable. I see Onegin stated he used the term facetiously, although in all honesty I can’t find it.

They are not authoritative and the apparitions as well as their interpreters are not infallible.

These are approved apparitions that the Church has publicly declared are good and worthy of belief.

Even the approvals of the apparitions by the church are not infallible statements, and these approvals are conditionally given as well as not binding upon the faithful.

It is probably a sacralige to say they are unreliable.

Although no one here on this thread appears to have taken that position, any Catholic is free to have and share that opinion and remain a Catholic in good standing. No sin is incurred.

I might be inclined to agree with the content of most of the messages, but I recognize that they have no place as factual evidence in discussions of theology. They are entirely secondary and derivative and cannot be cited as authentic original sources for beliefs.