Prayer for, not to, Satan

[Hesychios]

Wow, it is one thing to state that the visions of Fatima are not dogmatic and they are not required to believe to get to heaven but that is entirely different then saying that the apparitions of Fatima are unreliable.

I don’t recall anyone seriously posting that the apparitions are unreliable. I see Onegin stated he used the term facetiously, although in all honesty I can’t find it.

They are not authoritative and the apparitions as well as their interpreters are not infallible.

These are approved apparitions that the Church has publicly declared are good and worthy of belief.

Even the approvals of the apparitions by the church are not infallible statements, and these approvals are conditionally given as well as not binding upon the faithful.

It is probably a sacrilege to say they are unreliable.

Although no one here on this thread appears to have taken that position, any Catholic is free to have and share that opinion and remain a Catholic in good standing. No sin is incurred.

I might be inclined to agree with the content of most of the messages, but I recognize that they have no place as factual evidence in discussions of theology. They are entirely secondary and derivative and cannot be cited as authentic original sources for beliefs.

 

[mandateman]

There is nothing in the teachings of the Catholic church that says angels have free will. Angels were created with a concrete will and sufficent knowledge to make freely their one eternal choice knowingly and absolutely knowing there would be consequences. The church does teach that angels were created with concrete wills.

 

[bilop]

yes and Jesus said if one sheep went astray, he’ll leave the 99 others to seek the one that has gone astray

one person in hell might be too may for God. i think it is for certain that He desires ALL of us to be with Him in heaven

my point is, we don’t know who else is in hell. the only thing for certain is Satan is in hell. thats the only sure answer. we can debate 'til the end of time, but the only thing we will agree on is that Satan is in hell because thats the only fact we have.

and i’m not saying that nobody else is in hell, because like i said, my point is we don’t know.

We can be pretty sure about Judas too; after all Christ said “better for him if he had not been born”, and He would know.

Otherwise, no, we can’t be sure about individuals, but all of Christ’s teachings and many Saintly visions suggest that many, many souls, if not most souls, end up in hell.

God Bless

 

[po18guy]

There is nothing in the teachings of the Catholic church that says angels have free will. Angels were created with a concrete will and sufficent knowledge to make freely their one eternal choice knowingly and absolutely knowing there would be consequences. The church does teach that angels were created with concrete wills.

CCC311 teaches that angels and man do indeed have free will. Had the angels possessed a concrete will, they could not have rebelled against God, or chosen obedience to Him. A ‘concrete will’ also means that, to be evil, they had to be created as evil - an impossibility based on God’s revealed nature. However, the angels’ free choice was irrevocable, whereas man retains the grace of repentance.

 

[jtodisco]

“Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God…, because he is supremely good, would never allow evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.” (CCC 311)

“Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called ‘Satan’ or the ‘devil’. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: ‘The devil and the other demons were indeed created natrually good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.’”

“Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This ‘fall’ consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in teh tempter’s words to our first parents: ‘You will be like God.’ The devil ‘has sinned from the beginning’; he is a ‘liar and the father of lies.’”

“It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgiveable. 'There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.” (CCC 391 - 393)

Also, there’s no need for any of us to behave like demons just because we’re discussing them. It might help foster greater understanding of one another’s views on the matter if we all tried to be a little bit more polite despite our disagreements.

 

[Onegin]

yes and Jesus said if one sheep went astray, he’ll leave the 99 others to seek the one that has gone astray

one person in hell might be too may for God. i think it is for certain that He desires ALL of us to be with Him in heaven

God does not desire for anyone to suffer the torments of Hell, however He created us with a free will and the ability to choose our own eternal fate.

This reminds me of the poem by Francis Thompson called “The Hound of Heaven”:

I FLED Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
‘All things betray thee, who betrayest Me.’

That’s just an exerpt but basically it tells of a soul that is running away from God and God is pursuing him. I believe that God pursues all of us in hopes that we will ultimately turn to Him, but certainly not all souls choose that route which is why Jesus said that many will enter through the wide gate that leads to destruction. He’s speaking of those that lead a sinful life because it is easier and make the conscious decision to reject Him.

So yes, God will pursue us, but ultimately we must orient our will towards His in the end if we hope to attain salvation. And certainly not all have or will do this.

 

[mandateman]

I find no intelligent reference to CCC311 that angels have free will. For one thing the angels were created with a concrete will and had one free choice to make. We to will lose free will when we reach our eternal destination. In beatific vision no one has free will except God. IN Hell no one has free will. Because angels had one choice it is called concrete will. Free will is associated the unfettered use of our will. The damned cannot chose goodness the saved evil.

 

[mandateman]

After examining the amount of people today who believe that angels have a free will I can see that the devil is achieving great lengths in this successful campaign to misdirect peoples minds.

Angels were created with concrete will which allowed one free choice because they were create with sufficient knowledge and they knew absolutely that there would be consequences involved in that one choice to either serve God or reject him. Since the one choice resulted in their eternal life or death their will was set forever hence the term concrete for the one free use of their will.

The term free will is used to describe the effect caused by the joining of an immortal soul to a human body and thereby giving the body Life, free will and reason. The term free means that we are capable of chosing evil and then immediately change our will to chose virtue. Angels never got a second chance. We have almost unlimited chances which is referred to as free will.

When the angels and when we pass through our personal judgement our wills will become fixed also. The angels one use of their will was their personal judgement.
There is no salvation for the damned and no chance of loss of heaven for the saved. No weekend passes to visit the other place.

We all feel bad for the damned but we didnt damn them they made their own choice or choices in the case of men and they got what they sought either a life with God or a life without God. There is no chosing God after you see what hell has to offer in accomodations. The very idea that perhaps it will all be worked out later is repulsive. It is as if God doesnt know what He is doing. He just has to take revenge but He will feel ashamed later that He has been too hard on the damned. God my friends will not lose one moments sleep worrying about the damned because their sufferings although far worse than anything that can happen to use here is still less then they deserve and that is why Hell is called God’s last mercy to sinners.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

After examining the amount of people today who believe that angels have a free will I can see that the devil is achieving great lengths in this successful campaign to misdirect peoples minds.

Seriously here? We’re having a theological debate here, you don’t need to call those of the opposite position seduced by the devil.

 

[jtodisco]

Marc Anthony, don’t be too bothered by mandateman’s outbursts. I always try to remember in situations like this that God sends some to increase the faith of men while he sends others to test the faith of men. Both are useful to the world in their own ways, however it is amusing that often the latter think they are the former.

 

[SouthpawLink]

I asked this in Ask an Apologist, no reply yet, and I’m curious as to the answer…

Jesus says we should pray for our enemies. This is a fact as taught by the Church and the Bible. I do this normally and have had no trouble at all with this teaching.

Then I read a quote somewhere, I believe from Mark Twain, who pointed out that Satan is the ultimate enemy yet nobody prayed for him. This struck me as a good point, so I said a prayer that Satan would stop his temptation of souls and that, despite his case being hopeless, he would be shown mercy and after repenting be allowed to come back to Christ.

Is this sinful? I would think probably not, but I want to be sure. I’m also pretty sure that if it is grave matter it’s still not a mortal sin because of lack of sufficient knowledge…Thoughts?

Yes, it’s sinful to pray for Satan, because it goes contrary to God’s will, Who desires that he remain in hell. This is taught in the Revised Baltimore Catechism, No. 3 (1949, Fr. Connell).

See also Catholic1954’s post - no one in hell is an object of charity. Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, II-II, Q. 25, art. 11.

 

[mandateman]

I was also discussing that God does not love everyone equally. The idea He does comes from the misconception that God feels love which is a humanizing of God.

God is Love. He is and infinite ocean of Love and His goodness seeks to share his substance with the glorified in Heaven. If you by your prayer, fasting, penance and good works make yourself a vessel the size of a thimble then the most love of God that you can obtain is a thimble full. If you make the vessel you are into an jar then you can share in a jar sized amount of God’s substance which we call Sanctifying Grace. This sanctifying grace is not an assistance but a share in what God is.

We talk constantly that God is love but God is all virtues infinitely so is love His most important virtue I think it is His Goodness which His pre-dominant virtue which comprises many virtues including Love. But Goodness in God is His choice.

Again angels had only one free use of their wills and it was eternal hence the name concrete. We to will have concrete wills when we pass through judgement and enter eternity. Free will is only for while we are alive. There is no free will in Heaven either. Otherwise sin would be possible. There are no good works in Hell and no sin in Heaven.

Everyone entering eternity has a concrete will the angels entered their eternity immediately after using their will once. It cannot be any other way.

If free will goes on in eternity then there will be prayer groups in hell and gambling and prostitution in heaven. The things you say you believe have meaning and conclusions. Try to think out the logic of what you say you believe.

The teaching you keep referring to confirms only that God did not interfer with the decision of angels or the free will of humans even if it leads to their eternal loss. He is not responsible for their choice. Yes angels had freedom to make 1 decision but immediate with that was their judgement to heaven or hell. Once anyone passes through into eternity their will is fixed forever. Otherwise sin could exist in Heaven.

 

[po18guy]

I find no intelligent reference to CCC311 that angels have free will. For one thing the angels were created with a concrete will and had one free choice to make. We to will lose free will when we reach our eternal destination. In beatific vision no one has free will except God. IN Hell no one has free will. Because angels had one choice it is called concrete will. Free will is associated the unfettered use of our will. The damned cannot chose goodness the saved evil.

The phrase “concrete will” exists nowhere within the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Neither have I ever heard this phrase used. Be that as it may, let’s examine CCC311, 391 and 392 verbatim (emphasis mine):

311 “Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it”

392 "Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies.”

393 "It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

The angels lost their free will after they rejected God, just as man loses his free will after death. Before their fall, the angels chose to serve God an infinite number of times. Each time was a choice, just as it remained their choice to rebel. That they lost free will after their rebellion does not indicate that no such free will existed before that time.

 

[jtodisco]

I agree with po18guy and would like to add the following also found in the Catechism:

330 “As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.”

(underlining added for emphasis is mine)

Though really, I believe the original question was about whether or not praying for Satan was of any benefit. Obviously (as has been said already a few times, and I think everyone agrees on at least this point) it is of no benefit to pray for the fallen angels.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Prayer for Satan? I always find someone who I forget to mention in my prayers when I think of Specifics. Satans ever been on this list.

 

[mandateman]

Well the term concrete will was the common name used by people my age and older. Just to let you know there was intelligence and cathecism before rock and roll.

I have read extensively the theological ideas concerning free will in eternity. They all end up with a giant answer of we dont know but there is no forgiveness for the damned and no sin for the saved angel or man.

In the final analysis I think my answer is best and definitive. The passing into eternity fixes the will eternally.