Prayer is an illusion

[down_under]

Proving a negative is very difficult. But why should I believe the opposite - that prayer actually does something?

proving a negative is not very difficult it is impossible. Any true scientist will tell you that. You cannot prove that santa does not exist never mind that Jesus does not answer prayer. mean while we have made a good case to the contrary that you seem to be ignoring. you only respond to the posts you want to respond to. You are probably not even reading the whole argument, or posts by people you dont want to talk to. Every time someone talks about God like he is the PERSON that he is you have no responce. God has free will. To ask another person for something is by definition giving that person the right to say no. That does not mean that the only answers are yes no or wait. Or that God will not make a direct responce to my prayer that I can understand in the present time. It just means he has the right to say no. Your idol will never make a direct responce. It can’t. nor is there any room for presumption on our part that he might. Your idol never entered history as a man. your idol never healed anybody. Your idol never promised to answer prayer. In short Jesus christ has a lot going for him that your idol does not.

 

[down_under]

God has basically made the same promise (“If there is anything else you need, let me know and I’ll get it to you”). But, if I were to ask God to sit down and talk to me, in a tangible way, he isn’t going to answer (in any way that couldn’t be attributed to coincidence). The possibilities:

\

You niny. This is what we are trying to tell you. He does sit down and talk to you in tangible ways that cannot be attributed to coincidence by any reasonable mind. However you are not being reasonable. You continually ignore parts of the discussion that you dont like. Like the, to you, unpleasent fact that God is a person who can respond and does respond directly to you in ways you can understand. That is if you don’t have a presumption that he does not exist limiting your vision.

 

[the_phoenix]

In a more humorous vein, yesterday I was discussing this thread with a friend of mine as we were driving in her car. While we were talking about prayer, all of a sudden I got hit in the head by a falling object that then dropped into my lap from the overhead window visor.

Reaching down and picking the item up, it gave us both quite a chuckle to see what it was:

An audio CD titled “Pray with Me: A Daily Devotional.”

~~ the phoenix

 

[down_under]

What if I told you there was an invisible, silent cat in your room right now. Wherever you moved, it would move away from you. No matter what you said or what you did, you would have no evidence for it’s existance.

This argument is so far of base as to not be worth mentioning. As I stated similarly before. I have no real reason to believe that there is an invisible cat in the first place much less that he is in my room. God has that presumtion going for him. He entered history. We can prove that Jesus Christ was a person who did things that were not humanly possible. And who promised to do them for us. And who promised that people who believed in him would do greater things still. We have seen God answer prayers. We know he does in tangible ways that cannot be attributed to another source. Unless you come at the answered prayer with the predispostion that God does not exist. Then He could not have answered prayer so there must be some other possibility. By the there are to many instances that cannot be explained to be written off so easily. You either have never bothered to look at the record or dont want to because these instances defeat your argument.

 

[LilyM]

In a more humorous vein, yesterday I was discussing this thread with a friend of mine as we were driving in her car. While we were talking about prayer, all of a sudden I got hit in the head by a falling object that then dropped into my lap from the overhead window visor.

Reaching down and picking the item up, it gave us both quite a chuckle to see what it was:

An audio CD titled “Pray with Me: A Daily Devotional.”

~~ the phoenix

C’mon exalt, do you REALLY need more than that?

 

[tdgesq]

I have answered previously nearly every question and objection you set forth here.

Fair enough. But what about something really simple. What about “Hey, man, I was wondering if we could have dinner tonight.”? If you could, you probably would, right? Or if you couldn’t, you’d explain why and reschedule.

So a voice comes claiming to be God and speaks to you in your head and tells you why your request wasn’t granted. As you admit though, you don’t believe in God. So you don’t believe that God really told you anything about prayer. You just had a hallucination or a dream or something else that doesn’t involve God to explain it. It’s the same answer I gave you about what would happen if there was a statistically significant link between group prayer and the recovery of heart patients. There would have to be a naturalistic explanation, because God has already been ruled out as a possible cause. Btw, why doesn’t God drive a car around your neighborhood, and what does it tell you by the fact that he doesn’t? That’s a serious question.

The possibilities:

1. God seems to ignore us, or
2. he really *really *wants to remain unseen.

As I answered last time, there are quite a few other possibilities. The one that applies here is that it wouldn’t do any good, just like the study showing a statistically significant correlation.

What if I told you there was an invisible, silent cat in your room right now. Wherever you moved, it would move away from you. No matter what you said or what you did, you would have no evidence for it’s existance.

Could you prove that it wasn’t there?

Yes, I can prove it wasn’t there. Neither of us believe there is an invisible cat from the outset. This is the stone idol again. We both know there will be no evidence for the stone idol answering prayers or for the existence of the cat, because at the outset we deny the existence of both.

With prayer, is there any way I could disprove the effectiveness of prayer conclusively, to your satisfaction?

Sure there is. You could prove that God doesn’t exist. You could prove that Scripture isn’t the word of God. You could prove that there is no revelation that God will answer prayers. You could prove that responses to prayer that Church affirms aren’t true. There are many methods.

Let’s say a person in the midst of the Holocaust asks for God to save him. He doesn’t and the person dies. I ask you why - and you tell me Jesus just chose not to, for whatever reason.

I’ll just post exactly what I did previously about this:

But what do these questions have to do with whether prayer is an illusion? Why God grants some prayers and not others has nothing to do with whether God really does grant some requests. If he does, then it doesn’t really matter why he doesn’t grant others.

So basically, Jesus has no obligation to answer ANY prayer. I could ask for anything - and it might or might not happen. There’s no way to prove it either way. If something good happens, it’s God will. If not, God just chose not to help out, for whatever reason.

Jesus is only obligated to answer those prayers to which he has bound Himself to answer. There is good evidence that he does answer many prayers; I would say good evidence that he answers many prayers every day. The problem is that there is no way I can give you that evidence and make any progress so long as you continue to obstinately insist upon holding to positions that I’ve already shown are unreasonable.

But to me? It’s as silly as an invisible cat in the room. God answers prayers? No. Good stuff happens and bad stuff happens. To say there’s an invisible, all-knowing deity watching over all of us is just ridiculous. Every single “miracle” is nothing more than a coincidence.And for the small ones, here and there, that are difficult to explain, they aren’t reproducable enough to suffice as evidence.

Based upon a voice not speaking to you in your mind and telling you why it wasn’t answered, which wouldn’t convince you anyway. Based upon a lack of statistical evidence that by its very nature cannot give any meaningful results. Based upon an absurd interpretation of Scripture that God has promised to fulfill every request made of him. Yes, it is just ridiculous, isn’t it.

 

[tdgesq]

Listen. You’re not understanding what I’m saying to you.

No you listen. I understand exactly what you are telling me, as you’ve told me multiple times now in this thread. Don’t now tell me that really it was something different all along:

It is theologically unacceptable that God would fulfull every request made to him in prayer. This is difficult to reconcile with scripture, where Jesus very clearly says otherwise.

Again:

Scripture is full of contradicting accounts. In one part of the Bible, action X is condemned, but in another part, it’s encouraged. In a number of passages, Jesus says that God responds to every single prayer - and, in a number of other passages, it’s clear that that isn’t true.

Again:

Actually, that’s not really true. God should have healed everyone that was prayed for, if Matthew 18:19 was true.

Don’t be upset at me because you haven’t provided evidence that prayer is an illusion. It’s your poor standards of evidence that have gotten you into this pickle.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

Well, scientific studies have found that Christian prayer has no tangible effect.

Dr. Herbert Benson conducted a study of heart patients, in which some were prayed for and others weren’t. The $2.4 million study confirmed that prayer had no positive effect:

Here’s the article.

If Christian prayer has no special effect, then God does not answer prayers at all. If God does not answer prayers, God does not exist.

I beg your pardon but if you wanted such an experiment to be considered a “success”, did you want the sick patients who were not prayed for to be dead with flies over them or to be in an even worse condition while those who were prayed for to be alive and disease ridden all of a sudden as proof of existence of God???

 

[Sixtus]

Originally Posted by Exalt

Well, scientific studies have found that Christian prayer has no tangible effect.

I think I understand…research was carried out to test the reliability of Almighty God???

So what result did you expect? Any self respecting Christian could have told you what the outcome would be, thereby saving someone rather a lot of money

Such an error is bound to produce only one result

It is written ’ You shall not put the Lord your God to the test!’

 

[Sixtus]

Quite probably Almighty God thwarted the ‘empirical evidence’ by blessing all of them!

 

[JFT]

Were prayer as illusory as the poster stated, then I suspect that even pre-Christians would have ceased offering up prayers to their various-and-sundry deities almost from the beginning. And, that includes the ancient Egyptians!

 

[Valke2]

that would depend on how good the illusion is.

 

[down_under]

bump waiting for responce

 

[cheeto1]

It seems that every possible angle has been examined and
explored. Very sensible and logical assertions and responses
have come from both sides. Yet this has gone on for 153 posts.
Is this not evidence that faith is a gift that can’t be won by saying
the right words or trying to understand properly? What has been
left unexplained from either side in this thread?

 

[down_under]

It seems that every possible angle has been examined and
explored. Very sensible and logical assertions and responses
have come from both sides. Yet this has gone on for 153 posts.
Is this not evidence that faith is a gift that can’t be won by saying
the right words or trying to understand properly? What has been
left unexplained from either side in this thread?

doen’t see much is left I just get so irritated that people don’t respond or apperently even bother reading all the posts. They only answer the ones they feel like. Most people on this site don’t bother actually changeling themselves to answer some objection they apperently dont like to much. either that or they simply only read one persons responce for the whole thread and don’t really care what anyone else says. Not a very charitable way to have a conversation.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…This distance clearly says that God doesn’t really care much about human beings - and that he is certianly not “our father,” for a father does not give his children the silent treatment. Finally, if God doesn’t care about human beings, the Christian God doesn’t exist.

If God does care about us, I asked, why doesn’t he talk to us directly?

In response, Keikiolu said that, “He does ‘talk’ to us directly. That’s what prayer is. As well as ‘living prayer’, which is discerning God in one’s actions and choices of everyday life.”

My response is this: Prayer is an illusion.

Suffering is what we make of it - we can complain, or endure it, or seek God in it. ISTM the objection overlooks the place of the Cross in the Christian life.​

…So, let’s just say for a moment that I was a believer. I pray for God to communicate with me and help me discern if I should accept this particular job, or that particular job. I wait, and nothing happens. God didn’t answer my prayer, and I’m a bit upset.

I go to my priest and he tells me that God answers your prayers with “yes”, “no”, and “wait.” God might help you (that’s a “yes”), he might not (that’s a “no”), or he might help you at point in the future (that’s “wait”). Sometimes it’s hard to discern how God answered your prayer, you have to be faithful and have patience.

Well, that answers sound comforting, but it is, in fact, an illusion.

It’s good advice - everything, including what we find unwelcome, can help us grow as Christians.​

What do you think answering prayer involves BTW ?

Let’s say for a moment that you come to me with a problem. I ask you to pray to my stone idol. One of the following three things will happen:

1. The problem is solved the next day. I say “See! The stone idol answered your prayer!”
2. The problem is solved in a year. I say “See! You just had to wait patiently.”
3. The problem is never solved. I say “Well, we just have to trust in the stone idol. He knows best. Just be patient and have faith.”

Well, will you begin to worship my stone idol? Of course not. Why?

Because “Jesus Christ”, not some idol, “is Lord”.

You won’t worship my stone idol because it did nothing. It didn’t answer your prayer. It had nothing to do with solving your problem. You know that and I know that. Whatever happened, it was nothing more than a coincidence.

If the criteria is “yes”, “no”, and “wait”, the stone idol can’t lose. It appears that the stone idol did something, but it actually did nothing.

In fact, **with any concievable scenario, no matter who you were asking, “yes” “no” and “wait” are **always true, no matter what. It’s true no matter if you pray to a stone idol, Jesus, Mary, or anyone. “Yes” “no” and “wait” is always the answer no matter what force or being you pray to.

No - Jesus Christ is to be adored as God, for so He is. His Mother is to be loved very greatly as His Mother Neither is a slot machine for our wishes. Jesus Christ would be worthy of love if He never granted one prayer - He is to be loved, less because of what we (so to speak) “can get out of” Him than because of Who is He is. His Will is to be done in all things - this can mean ours are not ​

To compare God with a stone idol is beyond belief God is God - this is more than enough reason to adore Him

If you say that God answers prayers in the form of “yes”, “no”, and “wait”, God can’t lose. But in reality, God is no different than my stone idol. My stone idol can’t lose either. That’s the illusion.

So how do we know for sure?

Because God is Living - idols are not​

How do we know that every answered prayer is a coincidence?

Well, scientific studies have found that Christian prayer has no tangible effect.

Dr. Herbert Benson conducted a study of heart patients, in which some were prayed for and others weren’t. The $2.4 million study confirmed that prayer had no positive effect:

Here’s the article.

If Christian prayer has no special effect, then God does not answer prayers at all. If God does not answer prayers, God does not exist.

That sort of test is so naive as to be laughable. The method is inappropriate. Science is useful for things that can quantified - God is not quantifiable. As prayer cannot be tested by the sciences, the results of the tests are valueless.​

God answers prayer, but not always as we might want. He heeds our good; not our wishes As the Agony of Jesus in Gethsemane suggests.

How does it follow that if God does not answer prayers, He does not exist ? What we want is not the most important thing in the universe: what He wants, is. Its centre is not us, but Jesus Christ. Your approach is wrong.

 

[beaverdad6]

Some thoughts that popped into my head while reading this very interesting thread:

1. Jeses gave us a really good prayer, and it’s a good guide in how we should pray in any context. We ask for simple things like “Forgive us, you run the show, give us what we need, protect us.” When we ask for specific things, we’re really trying to run the show ourselves. At Mass, the Prayers of the Faithful have always struck an odd chord with me because of this issue. Imagine the power of all the Catholics of the world united in common prayer every Sunday, and yet we still have abortion despite repeated pleas. From our perspective here on Earth, it seems like a good thing to ask for, preservation of innocent life, yet it continues.
2. The deeper you scratch the natural world with science, the more incredible (good word, no?) is what we discover. If you read summary articles and textbooks, the natural world seems very understandable and logical, explanation enough for its own existance. However, if you go deeper, the wonder of it all is overwhelming. Not only God’s existance but his magnificence is obvious in the universe. Our testing and experimenting and search for the rules of the universe is like a child exploring his room, house, and yard, ever expanding his knowledge. The universe gives us clues to the nature of the Creator.
3. I too struggle with the communication issue. God is all-powerful and therefore can communicate with us (all or one) as he pleases, in any language, at any volume, at just the right level that we can tolerate and understand. St. Paul (my patron saint) sure got a message loud and clear! God doesn’t stay silent because we cannot tolerate his power; after all, he can control how much of Himself he reveals as he did on Mt. Sinai. He must have His own reasons, and I agree it hurts when the silence is so deep and so long. The best we can do is remember “If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts.”
4. Finally, there have been many people of extreme intelligence (and many more of extreme simplicity) that have accepted God and his benevolence. It would be pretty arrogant of me to discount their reasoning with my level of understanding. The search will be long, but by God (fully intended expression) I’m going to keep looking. Jimbo.