Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

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And of course, what scholars say is the sine qua non for judging whether something is true?

If something is true, it’s true, whether you have a ‘scholar’ saying it’s false or not.

Heck, a lot of those scholars say there was no historical Jesus, that the crucifixion didn’t happen, etc. So are you going to believe them? Scholars say so. . .
 
This has nothing to do with Peter’s bones and nothing AT ALL with the excavations under St. Peter’s basilica. In fact, the article is so poorly developed and supported that I find it hard to believe that it was actually written by Dr. Criswell himself.

It omits key historical documents and omits all of the scriptural texts referencing Petrine primacy. It nothing more than a polemical snipe.
 
This has nothing to do with Peter’s bones and nothing AT ALL with the excavations under St. Peter’s basilica. In fact, the article is so poorly developed and supported that I find it hard to believe that it was actually written by Dr. Criswell himself.

It omits key historical documents and omits all of the scriptural texts referencing Petrine primacy. It nothing more than a polemical snipe.
Ok…have it your way. Believe in any bones you want, it is your error, not mine.
 
Prayer is a communication. We can pray to many; a study of the English language, among others, shows that the word historically is understood as “to ask” (ex. Shakespeare’s ‘prithee’ which is a contraction for ‘pray thee’, and meaning, "I ask you’.). We can pray with our family and friends. We can pray ‘to’ our family and friends (I pray you, good friend, to assist me). We communicate.

So praying to Mary is a communication which is traditional, historical, and Biblical. Now, in praying to Mary, our ultimate aim in communication with her is not to ‘stop’ there. Mary’s assistance to us is always by leading us to Jesus. Mary does not act in lieu of Jesus, but Jesus can and does act through Mary. He came to us through being born of Mary. He assures us in Scripture that, through Him, we can do great deeds. Any deeds which Mary does (indeed, which any person in heaven can do) can only be done through Jesus. For all in heaven are ultimately in union with Jesus. While they possess their own ‘soul’, that soul has become perfect in obedience and will and thus conforms to Jesus’ will perfectly, as Jesus’ will conforms perfectly to His Father. Yet Jesus, while being One with the Father, is also ‘separate’ in His humanity. Jesus could have chosen ‘differently’ from the Father, yet freely He chose to conform His will to the Father.

All of us, in seeking to follow Jesus, are seeking to do so perfectly and to conform ourselves to Jesus, to be one with Him.

That is what Mary shows us. Conformed most perfectly to His will, she is an example to us (fellow humans) yet above all, that example is to conform ourselves to HIM, just as she did.
 
Prayer is a communication. We can pray to many; a study of the English language, among others, shows that the word historically is understood as “to ask” (ex. Shakespeare’s ‘prithee’ which is a contraction for ‘pray thee’, and meaning, "I ask you’.). We can pray with our family and friends. We can pray ‘to’ our family and friends (I pray you, good friend, to assist me). We communicate.

So praying to Mary is a communication which is traditional, historical, and Biblical. Now, in praying to Mary, our ultimate aim in communication with her is not to ‘stop’ there. Mary’s assistance to us is always by leading us to Jesus. Mary does not act in lieu of Jesus, but Jesus can and does act through Mary. He came to us through being born of Mary. He assures us in Scripture that, through Him, we can do great deeds. Any deeds which Mary does (indeed, which any person in heaven can do) can only be done through Jesus. For all in heaven are ultimately in union with Jesus. While they possess their own ‘soul’, that soul has become perfect in obedience and will and thus conforms to Jesus’ will perfectly, as Jesus’ will conforms perfectly to His Father. Yet Jesus, while being One with the Father, is also ‘separate’ in His humanity. Jesus could have chosen ‘differently’ from the Father, yet freely He chose to conform His will to the Father.

All of us, in seeking to follow Jesus, are seeking to do so perfectly and to conform ourselves to Jesus, to be one with Him.

That is what Mary shows us. Conformed most perfectly to His will, she is an example to us (fellow humans) yet above all, that example is to conform ourselves to HIM, just as she did.
The veil in the Temple was torn in two…In John, nothing Jesus says alludes to anything else but direct access…there is NO need and NO Scriptural teaching to substantiate going to Jesus through Mary. None.
 
Part of the forum rules:


  1. *]
    *]Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
    *]
    Respectful of the faith of the Catholics. I think we need a reminder of this. . .
 
The veil in the Temple was torn in two…In John, nothing Jesus says alludes to anything else but direct access…there is NO need and NO Scriptural teaching to substantiate going to Jesus through Mary. None.
So you say. I disagree. I think there is indeed Scriptural teaching that substantiates going to Jesus through Mary, or indeed through others.’ I also think that there is no Scriptural teaching that contradicts this, and further, there is no Scriptural teaching that all that Jesus said and did is found in "Scripture alone. The two great commandments are to love God. . .and to love our neighbor.
 
I evaded no answer. People should be careful not to jump to conclusions that turn out to be erroneous, I think. . .
 
So you say. I disagree. I think there is indeed Scriptural teaching that substantiates going to Jesus through Mary, or indeed through others.’ I also think that there is no Scriptural teaching that contradicts this, and further, there is no Scriptural teaching that all that Jesus said and did is found in "Scripture alone. The two great commandments are to love God. . .and to love our neighbor.
no contradiction maybe…but surely NO support either. But go about your faith, erroneous as it is. You are ready to be awake yet it seems. You rather have your comfortable little religion, so be it.
 
Hi, Avenger
Could you point us to the church that Christ founded, since there are so many of them ?

1Timothy 3:15
“If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

The house referred to in Psalms 127:1 is explained here. Notice the word used in this verse is ‘church’ not ‘churches’. Also note that the Bible says it is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. some folks appear to ignore this verse, when asked what is the pillar and foundation of truth,.

Now the big question is whose house of God is the true church, that is the pillar and foundation of truth ?

Peace, onenow1:coffee:
 
If I wanted a ‘comfortable religion’, I’d surely not be a Catholic!

Truth is not ‘comfortable’ as the world sees it. In fact, the world is very ‘anti-Catholic’. It isn’t comfortable to be Catholic in the world; quite the opposite.

But I don’t want to be ‘comfortable’. I want to follow Christ and His Church. His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
 
If I wanted a ‘comfortable religion’, I’d surely not be a Catholic!

Truth is not ‘comfortable’ as the world sees it. In fact, the world is very ‘anti-Catholic’. It isn’t comfortable to be Catholic in the world; quite the opposite.

But I don’t want to be ‘comfortable’. I want to follow Christ and His Church. His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
if you REALLY want to follow Christ, you are in the wrong place. SO be it…go your way and I’ll go mine.
 
Not that it is any of your business, but I’ll tell you. I’m 52. I was born when Pope Pius XII was Pope. I have 3 grown children. I lived through the changes of Vatican 2. I was in Boston in 1979 when Pope John Paul II visited this country. I don’t know why you want to know, but there it is.
 
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