Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, **the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.” **

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

 

[nebula]

It seems rather obvious to me that the last bolded and underlined part of the prayer is meant to be that Mary would help us turn to Christ/God.

 

[Leeann]

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: **“If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”/**B]

It seems rather obvious to me that the last bolded and underlined part of the prayer is meant to be that Mary would help us turn to Christ/God

.

If we read the whole sentence, the Pope is saying that Mary may not help if we are ungrateful and unworthy of her protection….and if that turns out to be the case…that “we will not know to whom to turn”.

The topic question, is to whom the Apostles would point the Pope, if they were standing next to him hearing the statement* “we will not know to whom to turn”…*would they point him to Jesus….as it appears the Pope isn’t aware that Jesus is available and willing to hear us and more than able to answer us, according to His will….or would they leave him wondering 'who else there is to turn '???

 

[Deconi]

It is a position of humility!

If His Mother will not help us due to our wretched unworthiness, HOW CAN WE EVEN DARE ASK HER SON?!!

Humility, humility, humility…

It is not that he CANNOT cite Christ, but that the position is so wretched, that he dare not!

Humility, humility, humility…

 

[Reuben_J]

If we read the whole sentence, the Pope is saying that Mary may not help if we are ungrateful and unworthy of her protection….and if that turns out to be the case…that “we will not know to whom to turn”.

The topic question, is to whom the Apostles would point the Pope, if they were standing next to him hearing the statement* “we will not know to whom to turn”…*would they point him to Jesus….as it appears the Pope isn’t aware that Jesus is available and willing to hear us and more than able to answer us, according to His will….or would they leave him wondering 'who else there is to turn '???

I see a problem when you dissect the Pope’s prayer clinically and septically without appreciating Catholic culture and disposition toward Mary and when they are praying.

We have the same problem too a while back when secular journalists and anti-Catholics Christian commentators did the same to the late Mother Teresa on her dark soul night experience.

I just say this. We will never win on this as long you take the line, “… it appears the Pope isn’t aware that Jesus is available and willing to hear us and more than able to answer us, according to His will….” But actually, who are you kidding? Honestly, I think this subject isn’t worth discussing, unless and until you agree that Catholics are not that stupid or very naive, at the least that you think they are.

 

[Leeann]

It is a position of humility!

If His Mother will not help us due to our wretched unworthiness, HOW CAN WE EVEN DARE ASK HER SON?!!

Humility, humility, humility…

It is not that he CANNOT cite Christ, but that the position is so wretched, that he dare not!

Humility, humility, humility…

Hi Deconi

I understand that this may be what you have been taught, but my question asks to whom the Apostles would have pointed the Pope too…or any of us too.

Would they point him/us to Mary….or Jesus?
In the OT – Jesus was prophesied about.
“Counsellor” is just one of the names attributed to Him.

Isaiah 9:V 6

6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

In the NT – the early church in Corinth received the following instructions.

Hebrews 4:V 14 - 16 (Duoay Rheims version)

**14 **Having therefore **a great high priest **that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: **let us hold fast our confession. **

15 **For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. **

**16 **Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: **that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. **

Please note,that the word “confidence” does not mean with a lack of humility, but is in reference to the confidence that each believer should have in recognizing that Jesus’ blood sacrifice was sufficient and established the pathway for us to come to the Father when in times of need.

If we focus our attention directly on Him and in faith and in humbleness, go directly to Him to make our supplications known to Him, He is willing and able to meet all of our needs, according to His will.

Then there is no need to ever have to pray…as the Pope did to Mary, that: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, as one of the other posters pointed out, part of the problem, LeeAnn, is that your Protestant culture historically has ‘separated’ itself from the Christian culture most fully represented in Catholic/Orthodox culture.

One of the major goals of the Protestant separation was to eliminate clericalism. To do this, they were forced to start looking for ‘justification’ in eliminating clericalism. To the horror of some (while Henry VIII had no problem looting the monasteries and eliminating clergy who were not deemed ‘essential’, he was quite willing to accept clergy who submitted to his game plan–and with the exception of declaring himself, Henry as ‘ultimate religious head in England’, he did not ‘tamper’ with doctrine–that was left to his successors. Henry’s Catholicism was higher than the highest church Anglicanism today), ‘justification’ for eliminating clergy could only be found in elimination of certain Scripture and an entire ‘re-interpretation’ of many other passages. An unforeseen consequence to this (and a major cause IMO of the plethora of ‘splintering churches’ of the Protestants) was the NEW DOCTRINE (man-made) that encouraged people to believe that the Holy Spirit could interpret without any ‘hierarchy’, without any kind of ‘authoritative church’, without any ‘intermediary’. Again, the early Protestants were trying to get rid of clergy first, not of doctrine. . .found they had to change or dump doctrine in order TO get rid of the clergy. . .and then stirred up a whole maelstrom of people who now were conditioned to the idea that not only could they get rid of any clergy, they could get rid of anything else that THEY 'did not find the Spirit led them to."

Until and unless the Protestant peoples return to the doctrines they cast off, recognizing their fundamental (pun intended) error to begin with which was that of trying pridefully to ‘go to God alone instead of the way God Himself intended, AND instituted’, there will be nothing that Protestants can do except dig themselves in deeper in trying to justify an unjustifiable position.

 

[Leeann]

I see a problem when you dissect the Pope’s prayer clinically and septically without appreciating Catholic culture and disposition toward Mary and when they are praying.

Would you then, please post your understanding, from a Catholic perspective, of this prayer and what the meaning would be of the opening sentence to the article itself. (I’ve posted it below, you can read the whole article on the website given previously).

PONTIFF PUTS WORLD IN MARY’S HANDS
Visits Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii
POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.

Reuben:
We have the same problem too a while back when secular journalists and anti-Catholics Christian commentators did the same to the late Mother Teresa on her dark soul night experience.

As you can see below, this particular report was not issued by secular journalists or anti-Catholic commentators.

ALL ABOUT ZENIT

*The nature of ZENIT and its mission:

ZENIT is a non-profit international news agency comprising a team of professionals and volunteers who are convinced of the extraordinary richness of the Catholic Church’s message, particularly its social doctrine. The ZENIT team sees this message as a light for understanding today’s world.

At the same time, we are aware that this richness is little known in the information world. This motivates us to strive to bring this message to the Internet, in the greatest possible number of languages.

Our objective is to inform about the “world seen from Rome,” with professionalism and faithfulness to the truth. We aim to view the modern world through the messages of the Pope and the Holy See; tell about the happenings of the Church; and inform about the topics, debates and events that are especially interesting to Christians worldwide. ZENIT carries out this service independently. *

Reuben:
I just say this. We will never win on this as long you take the line, “… it appears the Pope isn’t aware that Jesus is available and willing to hear us and more than able to answer us, according to His will….” But actually, who are you kidding? Honestly, I think this subject isn’t worth discussing, unless and until you agree that Catholics are not that stupid or very naive, at the least that you think they are.

You will never win as long as the Pope continues to wonder ‘to whom he/we can go too if Mary won’t help you’ and as long as he continues to promulgate a belief that is a diversion from the true “gospel message” that was preached and taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

I do not believe that Catholics are stupid or naive.

I believe they have been misled by the Catholic church over the years and have placed their faith more in the “church” and what it teaches,rather than in God and what He teaches.

 

[Leeann]

Well, as one of the other posters pointed out, part of the problem, LeeAnn, is that your Protestant culture historically has ‘separated’ itself from the Christian culture most fully represented in Catholic/Orthodox culture.

One of the major goals of the Protestant separation was to eliminate clericalism. To do this, they were forced to start looking for ‘justification’ in eliminating clericalism. To the horror of some (while Henry VIII had no problem looting the monasteries and eliminating clergy who were not deemed ‘essential’, he was quite willing to accept clergy who submitted to his game plan–and with the exception of declaring himself, Henry as ‘ultimate religious head in England’, he did not ‘tamper’ with doctrine–that was left to his successors. Henry’s Catholicism was higher than the highest church Anglicanism today), ‘justification’ for eliminating clergy could only be found in elimination of certain Scripture and an entire ‘re-interpretation’ of many other passages. An unforeseen consequence to this (and a major cause IMO of the plethora of ‘splintering churches’ of the Protestants) was the NEW DOCTRINE (man-made) that encouraged people to believe that the Holy Spirit could interpret without any ‘hierarchy’, without any kind of ‘authoritative church’, without any ‘intermediary’. Again, the early Protestants were trying to get rid of clergy first, not of doctrine. . .found they had to change or dump doctrine in order TO get rid of the clergy. . .and then stirred up a whole maelstrom of people who now were conditioned to the idea that not only could they get rid of any clergy, they could get rid of anything else that THEY 'did not find the Spirit led them to."

Until and unless the Protestant peoples return to the doctrines they cast off, recognizing their fundamental (pun intended) error to begin with which was that of trying pridefully to ‘go to God alone instead of the way God Himself intended, AND instituted’, there will be nothing that Protestants can do except dig themselves in deeper in trying to justify an unjustifiable position.

So would that be Mary…or Jesus?

 

[theistgal]

So would that be Mary…or Jesus?

It is never “Mary OR Jesus” in Catholic (or Orthodox) doctrine.

Mary always leads us to her Son.

As I understand it, the point of the prayer is something like, “If Mary, His own Mother, who stood by Him during His passion and crucifixion, even when all His apostles except John had fled, won’t help us, who will?”

It’s what a certain politician recently called a “rhetorical flourish”. Don’t take it so literally - or so seriously.

 

[famousjonnyk]

The problem is, Leanne, is that your misunderstanding the Catholic/Orthodox perspective on Mary right from the very foundation.

First, you try to seperate prayers to Mary apart from prayers to Jesus Christ, which is why you interpret the Pope’s prayer as such. You break this prayer down into an EITHER/OR scenario. If you’re praying to Mary, you’re not praying to Jesus, and vice versa. Catholics, however, do not understand prayers to Mary as you present them.

Praying to Mary IS praying to Jesus. And praying to Jesus IS praying to Mary. Mary only holds any significance or power BECAUSE she is the Mother of God, therefore her position as Queen of Heaven is dependant upon Jesus’ position as God in the Flesh and King of Heaven. So, if we are turning to Mary, and asking for her prayers to Jesus on our behalf, it is already logically assumed we are turning to Jesus for aid, since Mary only has any power because of the authority granted to her by Jesus. We also believe that because Mary is assumed into heaven and occupies the Queenship of Heaven, that Mary’s will is perfectly united to Jesus’ will. Mary’s will never be out of harmony with the will of God.

Therefore, if the Pope says “to whom other shall we turn”…there is no other to turn too. Turning to Mary means turning to Jesus at the same time. If Mary will not hear us, who’s will is perfect and always in accordance with her Divine Son’s, then Jesus would not hear us either. In the same manner, If Jesus would not hear us, then neither would the Virgin Mother of God.

I would reccomend you first understand Catholic thought on the Marian dogmas before dissecting individual prayers to Mary. When you learn WHY the dogmas concerning Mary were defined throughout time as they were, you then realize they were defined in order solidify Jesus’ position as Lord and Saviour.

You said in another post that you believe the Catholic Church has misled people through the years. My question is, when did the misleading begin? You accept the Catholic Church’s binding dogma on what composes the New Testament, yet you at the same time deny the very same council that affirmed the Deutero-canonicals. Why are you, Protestant, so much more authoritative than those at the Council? Please explain.

 

[Leeann]

It is never “Mary OR Jesus” in Catholic (or Orthodox) doctrine.

Mary always leads us to her Son.

As I understand it, the point of the prayer is something like, “If Mary, His own Mother, who stood by Him during His passion and crucifixion, even when all His apostles except John had fled, won’t help us, who will?”

It’s what a certain politician recently called a “rhetorical flourish”. Don’t take it so literally - or so seriously.

Do you not take it literally or seriously?

 

[fix]

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Is Mary’s will separate from Jesus’ will?

 

[Leeann]

Hi famousjonnyk

The problem is, Leanne, is that your misunderstanding the Catholic/Orthodox perspective on Mary right from the very foundation.

First, you try to seperate prayers to Mary apart from prayers to Jesus Christ, which is why you interpret the Pope’s prayer as such. You break this prayer down into an EITHER/OR scenario. If you’re praying to Mary, you’re not praying to Jesus, and vice versa. Catholics, however, do not understand prayers to Mary as you present them.

Praying to Mary IS praying to Jesus. And praying to Jesus IS praying to Mary.

And where do you get your “understanding” about this as being true?

famousjonnyk:
Mary only holds any significance or power BECAUSE she is the Mother of God, therefore her position as Queen of Heaven is dependant upon Jesus’ position as God in the Flesh and King of Heaven.

Mary only holds as much significance as she does now or power as she is supposed to have now, BECAUSE that is what the Catholic church has taught – not what Jesus or His Apostles taught.

famousjonnyk:
So, if we are turning to Mary, and asking for her prayers to Jesus on our behalf, it is already logically assumed we are turning to Jesus for aid, since Mary only has any power because of the authority granted to her by Jesus. .

Again, a teaching of the Catholic church – not of Jesus or His Apostles.

famousjonnyk:
We also believe that because Mary is assumed into heaven and occupies the Queenship of Heaven, that Mary’s will is perfectly united to Jesus’ will. Mary’s will never be out of harmony with the will of God

Another teaching of the Catholic church itself – not of Jesus or His Apostles.

famousjonnyk:
Therefore, if the Pope says “to whom other shall we turn”…there is no other to turn too. Turning to Mary means turning to Jesus at the same time. If Mary will not hear us, who’s will is perfect and always in accordance with her Divine Son’s, then Jesus would not hear us either.

Teaching of the Catholic church – not of Jesus ore His Apostles.

Hebrews 4:V 14 - 16 (Duoay Rheims)

***14 ***Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession.

**15 **For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin.

**16 ****Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. **

famousjonnyk:
In the same manner, If Jesus would not hear us, then neither would the Virgin Mother of God.

The point is, why bother going to Mary at all when you can go directly to Him.

famousjonnyk:
I would reccomend you first understand Catholic thought on the Marian dogmas before dissecting individual prayers to Mary. When you learn WHY the dogmas concerning Mary were defined throughout time as they were, you then realize they were defined in order solidify Jesus’ position as Lord and Saviour.

I understand why the first Marian dogma came into being – Mary the Mother of God – one that I personally have never had a problem with, as it was necessary to clearly support the position of Jesus’ divinity/human aspect – against heresies that taught differently. As for all the subsequent Marian dogmas – which came into affect much later and over a period of development and time, there is nothing substantial to support any of them to the extent of where Mary now holds place within the Catholic church’s teachings.

famousjonnyk:
You said in another post that you believe the Catholic Church has misled people through the years. My question is, when did the misleading begin? .

As soon as the Catholic church teachings began to deviate from the truth of the “gospel message” that Jesus and His Apostles taught and preached for the salvation of all mankind…the message that held all the pertinent and significant information when Jesus sent the Apostles out to preach/teach/heal and baptize. That “gospel message” was sufficient in itself then and now, without any aid or assistance of new doctrines/dogmas to help it along.

famousjonnyk:
You accept the Catholic Church’s binding dogma on what composes the New Testament, yet you at the same time deny the very same council that affirmed the Deutero-canonicals. Why are you, Protestant, so much more authoritative than those at the Council? Please explain.

My login name is Leeann, famousjonnyk.

I don’t think I am any more authoritative than those at the Council of Trent.
I am simply in agreement with those Catholics and theologians, even back then, that did not agree that these books were “inspired” from God, however, they still accepted the New Testament books.

 

[Leeann]

Is Mary’s will separate from Jesus’ will?

Is Mary’s will even in the same category as Jesus’/God’s Will?

 

[water]

Is Mary’s will even in the same category as Jesus’/God’s Will?

Her Will was to follow God’s will. Yes! Anyone in Heaven can only do God’s will. For Mary, even when She was still on Earth - everything She did was to follow God’s will; She was full of grace. She is the most powerful intercessor to Jesus for us . The prayer gives that impression.

 

[fix]

Is Mary’s will even in the same category as Jesus’/God’s Will?

Does she act contrary, ever, to His will?

Her will is set on His will.

 

[Leeann]

Hi Water

Her Will was to follow God’s will. Yes! Anyone in Heaven can only do God’s will. For Mary, even when She was still on Earth - everything She did was to follow God’s will; She was full of grace. She is the most powerful intercessor to Jesus for us . The prayer gives that impression.

Jesus/The Holy Spirit intercede on our behalf.

Hebrews 7:V 20 – 28 (Douay Rheims)

20 And inasmuch as it is not without an oath, (for the others indeed were made priests without an oath;
21 But this with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever.)
22 By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue:
24 **But this, for that he continueth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood, **
25 Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us. 26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, in offering himself.
28 For the law maketh men priests, who have infirmity: **but the word of the oath, which was since the law, the Son who is perfected for evermore. **

Romans 8 V: 26 – 27 (Duoay Rheims)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; **but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. **
27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God.
28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.
29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren.
30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us?
32 He that spared not even his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how hath he not also, with him, given us all things?
33 Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that shall condemn? Christ Jesus that died, yea that is risen also again; who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

New American Bible
Romans V8: 26 - 24

26
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.
27
And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.
28
We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
29
For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30
And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.
31
What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32
He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him?
33
Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us.
34
Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Catholic church “teaches” what you’ve stated above…and that is why I asked the question, to whom would the Apostles point the Pope’s attention too…Mary …who is never mentioned in anyway in any of the teachings/preachings of Jesus or in the Apostles writings in such a manner…or to Jesus?

 

[Leeann]

Hi fix

Does she act contrary, ever, to His will?

Her will is set on His will.

Oh yes! Of course it would be!
Just as hopefully that all our wills are/or are being fashioned to be.

However that in itself does not afford Mary any greater authority or power to approach His throne of Grace…we all, as faithful and true believers in the “gospel message” that He and His Apostles preached, believing and accepting that He died for our sins…believing in His blood sacrifice…and BECAUSE of that sacrifice, have the privilege of being partakers of His Grace and are united in His body and are permitted and encouraged to approach Him with confidence, that He will hear us and help us in our times of trouble, according to His Will.

 

[water]

The Catholic church “teaches” what you’ve stated above…and that is why I asked the question, to whom would the Apostles point the Pope’s attention too…Mary …who is never mentioned in anyway in any of the teachings/preachings of Jesus or in the Apostles writings in such a manner…or to Jesus?

It is perhaps you didn’t see one very important event at the moment of Jesus’ death on the Cross.