Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[LilyM]

It is perhaps you didn’t see one very important event at the moment of Jesus’ death on the Cross.

Exactly. Jesus Himself pointed us to Mary when He gave her to us as our spiritual mother (being His mother, of course she is spiritually our mother).

And how can anyone who is in heaven, where nothing imperfect (ie nothing contrary to the will of God) may enter, but instead ALL become like Him, seeing Him as He really is, even conceive a thought, let alone do something or ask for something, that isn’t in utter accord with God’s will?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Since God chose Mary to deliver Jesus to the world, we should respect God’s will and receive Him from her.

water also mentioned that all-important event at the foot of the cross…
In this light should the Pope’s comments be understood. Not apart from the Tradition on this matter in which his comments are in context.

 

[theistgal]

Hi fix
Oh yes! Of course it would be!
Just as hopefully that all our wills are/or are being fashioned to be.

However that in itself does not afford Mary any greater authority or power to approach His throne of Grace…we all, as faithful and true believers in the “gospel message” that He and His Apostles preached, believing and accepting that He died for our sins…believing in His blood sacrifice…and BECAUSE of that sacrifice, have the privilege of being partakers of His Grace and are united in His body and are permitted and encouraged to approach Him with confidence, that He will hear us and help us in our times of trouble, according to His Will.

Well, we like to believe that Mary, because of her unique relationship with her Son, can get Him to do things He might not otherwise do (like any good mother ).

Remember the wedding of Cana? Jesus made it crystal clear that He wasn’t at all interested in helping that newly married couple with their problem. Yet Mary - His mother - refused to take “no” for an answer. And apparently her stubbornness was all it took to make Him change His mind!

 

[LilyM]

Well, we like to believe that Mary, because of her unique relationship with her Son, can get Him to do things He might not otherwise do (like any good mother ).

Remember the wedding of Cana? Jesus made it crystal clear that He wasn’t at all interested in helping that newly married couple with their problem. Yet Mary - His mother - refused to take “no” for an answer. And apparently her stubbornness was all it took to make Him change His mind!

Please, it was ‘persistence’ or ‘perseverance’ if you will, never ‘stubbornness’ - what a negative way to look at it!

 

[Jon_S]

This thread highlights the complete lack of understanding between the way Catholics and Evangelicals phrase things.

I read the OP’s post and the quote from the Pope and I took it as a common Catholic idea; that Mary exists to lead people to Jesus. Evangelicals look at the exact same quote and take away something completely different. And then a theological debate erupts where Catholics are once again accused of “Mary worship.”

 

[water]

Please, it was ‘persistence’ or ‘perseverance’ if you will, never ‘stubbornness’ - what a negative way to look at it!

also, does anyone ever wonder why Mary came to Jesus about people having lack of wine? What made Her come to Jesus if this would be His first miracle? She knew a lot about Jesus.

 

[TomaszA]

The scripture says the prayer of the righteous is mighty. Mary outstrips all other Christians by the graces God gave her and her total submission to Him. Thus her intercession is greatly sought, and rightfully so!

 

[Leeann]

Exactly. Jesus Himself pointed us to Mary when He gave her to us as our spiritual mother (being His mother, of course she is spiritually our mother).

How to do you arrive at that conclusion?

Mary was Jesus’ earthly mother – not His spiritual mother.
Why therefore would Mary become our spiritual mother?
Because He asked John to take care of His mother as his own and for Mary to do the same with John?
Jesus was Mary’s Lord and Saviour – and her earthly son, man.
Jesus is also our Lord and Saviour.

LilyM:
And how can anyone who is in heaven, where nothing imperfect (ie nothing contrary to the will of God) may enter, but instead ALL become like Him, seeing Him as He really is, even conceive a thought, let alone do something or ask for something, that isn’t in utter accord with God’s will?

But that isn’t the question.

The question is why bother going to/through Mary, when you don’t have too and more importantly, when it was never taught by Jesus or His Apostles to do so?

In all of His preaching and in all of their preaching/teaching/letters – people are told to ‘go to HIM’ – no mention is made of Mary in that sense at anytime or in any place with regards to the future believers and followers of Christ.

Surely it would have been mentioned if it was to be such an “enlightening and necessary” part of the plan of salvation for all of mankind, especially when Mary was right there at the time and still walking the earth after His death.

Belief in the Marian dogmas and of being able to pray to Mary for “speedier access to Jesus’ Grace” is something that the Catholic church has developed and taught over the centuries and added to and entwined with the “gospel message” that Jesus and His Apostles taught.

 

[Leeann]

Since God chose Mary to deliver Jesus to the world, we should respect God’s will and receive Him from her.

water also mentioned that all-important event at the foot of the cross…
In this light should the Pope’s comments be understood. Not apart from the Tradition on this matter in which his comments are in context.

No amount of “tradition” can bring truth to “a different gospel message”.

Again I ask – to whom would the Apostles point too – Mary….or Jesus?

 

[water]

No amount of “tradition” can bring truth to “a different gospel message”.

Again I ask – to whom would the Apostles point too – Mary….or Jesus?

Keep in mind that God is the ultimate end. God uses Mother Mary to help us get to that End. You don’t see the important of Jesus giving His Mother to His apostle John.

 

[Leeann]

Well, we like to believe that Mary, because of her unique relationship with her Son, can get Him to do things He might not otherwise do (like any good mother ).

Remember the wedding of Cana? Jesus made it crystal clear that He wasn’t at all interested in helping that newly married couple with their problem. Yet Mary - His mother - refused to take “no” for an answer. And apparently her stubbornness was all it took to make Him change His mind!

Yes – and what’s more important – was what she said, “do whatever He tells you.”

He tells us to “come to Him, all those who are weary and in need of rest” – He tells us
“to pray to the Father, in **His **name” – He tells us “ to knock and the door will be open”……

The point I’m making, is if your focus is centered on **Him **directly in the first place, there is no need to ever have to pray to someone else and say:
“*we will not know to whom to turn”, *as those do, who pray to Mary.

Why then don’t you follow what Mary said – “do whatever **He tells ****you.” **?

 

[Leeann]

This thread highlights the complete lack of understanding between the way Catholics and Evangelicals phrase things.

I read the OP’s post and the quote from the Pope and I took it as a common Catholic idea; that Mary exists to lead people to Jesus. Evangelicals look at the exact same quote and take away something completely different. And then a theological debate erupts where Catholics are once again accused of “Mary worship.”

You look surprised!??!!

 

[adstrinity]

If Mary wont help us, the Apostles would be at a loss to give us all advice as to whom we could turn. …You know, Leann, if you really wanted to know the answer, you could right now pray to St. Peter, the other 10, St. Matthias, and St. Paul and see if they have an opinion about this.

 

[promethius]

.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

…

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Irrelevant question. The prayer asks for intercession that people would turn to the HEART OF MARY. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Catholic theology, but the Sacred Heart of Mary is JESUS.

In other words, the prayer asks for intercession for people to turn to Christ. So what is your objection? Would you prefer they turn to something else?

 

[Leeann]

The scripture says the prayer of the righteous is mighty. Mary outstrips all other Christians by the graces God gave her and her total submission to Him. Thus her intercession is greatly sought, and rightfully so!

James 5: V 13 -18 (Douay Rheims)

(written by James to encourage and instruct the early Christians who were facing persecution – addressed to “the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad”)

You will note that he is speaking with regards to the support that they must give one another, by and through fellow believers here on earth. He makes no mention of praying to those who are in heaven.

13 Is any of you sad? Let him pray. Is he cheerful in mind? Let him sing.

**14 **Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

**15 **And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.

**16 **Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. **For the continual prayer of a (righteous) just man availeth much. **

17 Elias was a man passible like unto us: and with prayer he prayed that it might not rain upon the earth, and it rained not for three years and six months.
**
18 **And he prayed again: and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Leeann,

You’re right in saying that the passage says nothing about praying to the Saints in heaven however it contains one of the principles which this practice is based on, and that’s seeking intercession from righteous Christians because the prayer of the righteous is powerful. I mean think about it, couldn’t you just pray to Jesus directly? Why call on the elder of the Church to pray over you? Clearly their prayer is efficacious and worthy of petitioning.

Now, if asking others on earth to pray for us doesn’t distract from the mediation of Jesus, why should asking those in heaven be a distraction? The fact is intercession among Christians is recommended and praised. Even in the famous Mediator passage, the verse prior to it recommends intercession so there can be no doubt that intercession is good, helpful, and pleasing to God.

A valid question you may be considering is how can the Saints in heaven hear our prayer? The answer is through God! They behold the face of God and because of this are capable of knowing everything He reveals to them, including our requests for intercession! And what better intercessor than the one beholding the face of God!

Now, I should made clear that all intercession is through Christ. It’s not like the Saint becomes an additional mediator, not at all. The Saint intercedes for us through Christ. Without Christ none can reach the Father, not even the glorious ever virgin Mary could petition on our behalf without her Son.

Hope this helps!

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[Leeann]

Irrelevant question. The prayer asks for intercession that people would turn to the HEART OF MARY. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with Catholic theology, but the Sacred Heart of Mary is JESUS.

In other words, the prayer asks for intercession for people to turn to Christ. So what is your objection? Would you prefer they turn to something else?

Unfortunately that’s not what the prayer says though, it simply states “that they might repent and return to your heart," - not “Sacred Heart”.

*The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”*

promethius:
In other words, the prayer asks for intercession for people to turn to Christ. So what is your objection? Would you prefer they turn to something else?

My objection is that the Pope is appealing through Mary, when indeed he seems unaware that he can go directly to Jesus, and that by his example, he is upholding another type of “theology” – something different from the “gospel message” that directed people to Jesus – first and foremost – the “gospel message” that the Apostles warned the early Christians to “hold fast too” and not receive any other.

So whom do you think the Apostles would direct people to …Mary…or Jesus?

 

[Leeann]

Taking a break for some FOOD and family time!..and maybe a movie…


(Just to advise in case I don’t get right back to any posts or questions)

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Leeann

My objection is that the Pope is appealing through Mary, when indeed he seems unaware that he can go directly to Jesus,

So why does the Holy Spirit inspire St James to say people should call on the elders of the Church to pray for them? Why call on someone to pray for you when you can go directly to Jesus yourself? The answer is in Scripture: because the prayer of the righteous is powerful.

So whom do you think the Apostles would direct people to …Mary…or Jesus?

I think the problem is no one clarified to you interceding through Mary requires going through Jesus. It’s not like she’s another mediator, she is simply carrying our prayer to Jesus just like the righteous elders in James 5 verses 13-18 carry the prayers of the one petitioning them.

Makes sense to me but what do you think?

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Prior to the Crucifixion, I think the Apostles would have turned to Jesus.

But after the Crucifixion - when The Church was born - I think the Apostles would turn to Mary, because she is the personification of The Church and our mother which is what we need so desparately so that we can receive the life that Jesus wants to gives us. We need the Church just like the descendants of Adam who needed Eve.