Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It is a position of humility!

If His Mother will not help us due to our wretched unworthiness, HOW CAN WE EVEN DARE ASK HER SON?!!

Humility, humility, humility…

It is not that he CANNOT cite Christ, but that the position is so wretched, that he dare not!

Humility, humility, humility…

That’s not humility though. It’s humility on a false basis, because it ignores the Biblical info about how we “draw near to God in full assurance of faith” [Hebrews 10.22].​

OTOH:

• no one in creation is fit to approach God - not even the BVM.
  OTO:
• God’s grace makes us fit to do exactly that thing which of ourselves we cannot do
  This is because the Christian:
• is in Christ (so, has by adoption the sonship that by nature is Christ’s Sonship)
• has “received the Spirit of adoption”
  So - what we by ourselves (= dust and ashes) is irrelevant. “We have boldness to approach the Throne of Grace…” [see Hebrews 4] - boldness, not fear or reluctance. Grace overcomes what we are & what we truly deserve. If we were saved on the basis of what we deserve, we never could be saved - so salvation is of its very nature necessarily the work of the Grace of God. And this comes through Christ, as St. Paul explains at great length in more than one place.

The other view makes God our Enemy, or unknowable, or remote & unapproachable in some other way. Which has the effect of abolishing the Good News of God’s Kingship & God’s favour: it undoes the Work of Christ , or treats it as undone.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

…

• no one in creation is fit to approach God - not even the BVM.
  …

If God can conceive a child with her, why can’t she approach God?

An exception for an exceptional person I would think.

 

[Reuben_J]

That’s not humility though. It’s humility on a false basis, because it ignores the Biblical info about how we “draw near to God in full assurance of faith” [Hebrews 10.22].​

OTOH:

• no one in creation is fit to approach God - not even the BVM.

And you immediately contradicted yourself in the following explanation:-

OTO:

• God’s grace makes us fit to do exactly that thing which of ourselves we cannot do
  This is because the Christian:
• is in Christ (so, has by adoption the sonship that by nature is Christ’s Sonship)
• has “received the Spirit of adoption”
  So - what we by ourselves (= dust and ashes) is irrelevant. “We have boldness to approach the Throne of Grace.…” [see Hebrews 4] - boldness, not fear or reluctance. Grace overcomes what we are & what we truly deserve. If we were saved on the basis of what we deserve, we never could be saved - so salvation is of its very nature necessarily the work of the Grace of God. And this comes through Christ, as St. Paul explains at great length in more than one place.

The other view makes God our Enemy, or unknowable, or remote & unapproachable in some other way. Which has the effect of abolishing the Good News of God’s Kingship & God’s favour: it undoes the Work of Christ , or treats it as undone.

 

[Deconi]

That’s not humility though. It’s humility on a false basis, because it ignores the Biblical info about how we “draw near to God in full assurance of faith” [Hebrews 10.22].​

OTOH:

• no one in creation is fit to approach God - not even the BVM.
  OTO:
• God’s grace makes us fit to do exactly that thing which of ourselves we cannot do
  This is because the Christian:
• is in Christ (so, has by adoption the sonship that by nature is Christ’s Sonship)
• has “received the Spirit of adoption”
  So - what we by ourselves (= dust and ashes) is irrelevant. “We have boldness to approach the Throne of Grace.…” [see Hebrews 4] - boldness, not fear or reluctance. Grace overcomes what we are & what we truly deserve. If we were saved on the basis of what we deserve, we never could be saved - so salvation is of its very nature necessarily the work of the Grace of God. And this comes through Christ, as St. Paul explains at great length in more than one place.

The other view makes God our Enemy, or unknowable, or remote & unapproachable in some other way. Which has the effect of abolishing the Good News of God’s Kingship & God’s favour: it undoes the Work of Christ , or treats it as undone.

I fear the lesson in humility is lost within your eisogete.

You ignore that God CHOSE Mary and HE approached Her!

Then, through the wedding in Canaan, He demonstrates for us all, that SHE has His ear, by responding to Her request!

**Clearly, your argument is with Him! **

 

[Leeann]

If Mary wont help us, the Apostles would be at a loss to give us all advice as to whom we could turn. …You know, Leann, if you really wanted to know the answer, you could right now pray to St. Peter, the other 10, St. Matthias, and St. Paul and see if they have an opinion about this.

The Apostles were never at a loss to give the people advise as to whom they could turn.
Their message is the same today as it was back then.

I already know the answer.
I posted the question for a “Catholic” perspective.

 

[Leeann]

Peace Leeann,

You’re right in saying that the passage says nothing about praying to the Saints in heaven however it contains one of the principles which this practice is based on, and that’s seeking intercession from righteous Christians because the prayer of the righteous is powerful. I mean think about it, couldn’t you just pray to Jesus directly? Why call on the elder of the Church to pray over you? Clearly their prayer is efficacious and worthy of petitioning.

Now, if asking others on earth to pray for us doesn’t distract from the mediation of Jesus, why should asking those in heaven be a distraction? The fact is intercession among Christians is recommended and praised. Even in the famous Mediator passage, the verse prior to it recommends intercession so there can be no doubt that intercession is good, helpful, and pleasing to God.

A valid question you may be considering is how can the Saints in heaven hear our prayer? The answer is through God! They behold the face of God and because of this are capable of knowing everything He reveals to them, including our requests for intercession! And what better intercessor than the one beholding the face of God!

Now, I should made clear that all intercession is through Christ. It’s not like the Saint becomes an additional mediator, not at all. The Saint intercedes for us through Christ. Without Christ none can reach the Father, not even the glorious ever virgin Mary could petition on our behalf without her Son.

Hope this helps!

God bless,
Tomasz

Tomasz thank you for taking the time and explaining your point of view so clearly.
So who do you think, the Apostles would have turned the Pope’s attention too….Mary…or Jesus?

 

[sandusky]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

The apostles would have pointed him to Christ, and to no other.

 

[Leeann]

Peace Leeann

So why does the Holy Spirit inspire St James to say people should call on the elders of the Church to pray for them? Why call on someone to pray for you when you can go directly to Jesus yourself? The answer is in Scripture: because the prayer of the righteous is powerful.

James was writing to the scattered Christians –his words of encouragement for them were to urge them to support one another, those right there, together at that time….something that by doing and witnessing, right there amongst themselves….would strengthen their faith in times of persecution. The same holds true for us today.

ThomaszA:
I think the problem is no one clarified to you interceding through Mary requires going through Jesus. It’s not like she’s another mediator, she is simply carrying our prayer to Jesus just like the righteous elders in James 5 verses 13-18 carry the prayers of the one petitioning them.

Makes sense to me but what do you think?

See above paragraph…

Whom do you think James would have pointed the Pope too……Mary or Jesus?

 

[Leeann]

Prior to the Crucifixion, I think the Apostles would have turned to Jesus.

But after the Crucifixion - when The Church was born - I think the Apostles would turn to Mary, because she is the personification of The Church and our mother which is what we need so desparately so that we can receive the life that Jesus wants to gives us. We need the Church just like the descendants of Adam who needed Eve.

THANK YOU Charlie! You are the first to actually attempt to address and answer the question directly!

After the crucifixion, I too believe that the Apostles would have turned to Mary, seeking comfort from her and in turn comforting and caring for her, out of genuine respect and love for her and for Jesus. Mary was with the Apostles waiting and praying on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came.

But there is no indication that Mary accompanied or assisted the Apostles as they went out preaching and establishing the churches, no mention in their teaching and preaching of the “gospel message” on any significance with regard to Mary (such as the Catholic church of today affords her) – and they certainly *did point people to Jesus *…not Mary after the crucifixion.

 

[fix]

Oh yes! Of course it would be!
Just as hopefully that all our wills are/or are being fashioned to be.

Not as those in heaven and not as Mary.

However that in itself does not afford Mary any greater authority or power to approach His throne of Grace…we all

, as faithful and true believers in the “gospel message” that He and His Apostles preached, believing and accepting that He died for our sins…believing in His blood sacrifice…and BECAUSE of that sacrifice, have the privilege of being partakers of His Grace and are united in His body and are permitted and encouraged to approach Him with confidence, that He will hear us and help us in our times of trouble, according to His Will.I quote the Catechism:

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties."28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the way” (hodigitria), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2679 Mary is the perfect *Orans *(pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.137

 

[theistgal]

Please, it was ‘persistence’ or ‘perseverance’ if you will, never ‘stubbornness’ - what a negative way to look at it!

Why negative?

Where I come from, stubbornness is a virtue, when you’re standing up for what you know is right. Mules have a reputation for being stubborn, but sometimes it’s because their owner doesn’t realize they’re about to go into a ditch!

 

[fix]

I believe they have been misled by the Catholic church over the years and have placed their faith more in the “church” and what it teaches,rather than in God and what He teaches.

He stressed that “the twelve Apostles are the clearest sign of Jesus’ will concerning the existence and mission of His Church, the guarantee that there is no contrast between Christ and the Church.”

In this light, Benedict said that the slogan which became fashionable some years ago: ‘Yes to Jesus, no to the Church,’ is completely irreconcilable with the intentions of Christ."

“Between the Son of God made flesh and His Church there exists a profound, unbreakable and mysterious continuity, by virtue of which Christ is present today in His people, and especially in those who are the successors of the Apostles.”

 

[water]

But there is no indication that Mary accompanied or assisted the Apostles as they went out preaching and establishing the churches, no mention in their teaching and preaching of the “gospel message” on any significance with regard to Mary (such as the Catholic church of today affords her) – and they certainly *did point people to Jesus *…not Mary after the crucifixion.

Again, if you look at all the important events, Mary was always there. Look harder and you will see.

 

[adstrinity]

The Apostles were never at a loss to give the people advise as to whom they could turn.
Their message is the same today as it was back then.

I already know the answer.
I posted the question for a “Catholic” perspective.

The message is not the same. The Apostles had no clue before the Ressurection…except Peter…who had the ability to vocalize.

 

[justasking4]

It is a position of humility!

If His Mother will not help us due to our wretched unworthiness, HOW CAN WE EVEN DARE ASK HER SON?!!

Humility, humility, humility…

It is not that he CANNOT cite Christ, but that the position is so wretched, that he dare not!

Humility, humility, humility…

What makes you think you don’t have direct access to the Lord Jesus Who died and rose again on our behalf? Did not He command us to ask in His name?

 

[justasking4]

The message is not the same. The Apostles had no clue before the Ressurection…except Peter…who had the ability to vocalize.

We do today do have a clue. Why don’t you think the pope did not appeal directly to Christ for help?

 

[adstrinity]

We do today do have a clue. Why don’t you think the pope did not appeal directly to Christ for help?

The question was to whom would the Apostles appeal? It was past tense. Back then, they would have had no idea. Today, if Mary says no, I think the Apostles will take their cue from Mary.

We must all pray to Mary that we are found worthy to be with Her in Heaven.

Please Holy Mother of God, pray for us sinners so that we may have the strength to do your Son’s work here on Earth so that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.

 

[fix]

What makes you think you don’t have direct access to the Lord Jesus Who died and rose again on our behalf? Did not He command us to ask in His name?

He uses His mother and saints and angels as He desires. Why do you say He must act only as you desire?

 

[utunumsint]

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

For salvation, I would turn to Jesus. He is my one and only saviour God.

But after the resurection Jesus was no longer present except through the Holy Spirit. So to help us know Jesus, the Holy Spirit used intermediaries. For example:

• He gave us apostles who knew him. The apostles told people about Jesus and so mediated knowledge about Jesus to them.
• The apostles gave us scriptures so that we can know Jesus.
• Many passages in scripture recounting the life of Jesus could only have come to us through the Virgin Mary. For example, the nativity narrative. Information about Joseph. The presentation of Jesus at the temple. her conversation with him at the wedding feast of Cana. Jesus as a young boy learning and teaching at the temple. etc… All of this was most likely mediated to us through her.
• Mary also spend thirty three years of her life with our saviour. The apostles only spent three years of their life with him. The information of the last thirty years of his life was most likely mediated through her.
• It is probably fair to say that know one knew Jesus as well as Mary.
• Paul only saw Jesus for a moment in his vision on the way to Damascus. Everything else was mediated to him through the teachings of the apostles and the early Christians.

Anyway, my point is we can certainly say that Mary was a mediator of knowledge of Christ. If she knew Christ so well, why would you not avail yourself to her for prayers, knowing full well that we are not asking her for salvation? What we are relying on is her special relationship with her son. We are also turning to her as a spiritual mother, as a guide to her son’s will. As a guide to know the heart of her son. As a guide to conform ourselves to his will in our lives.

God bless,
Ut

P.S. You know, it occured to me that the problems you have with the Catholic understanding of Mary stems from your understanding of Salvation. For you it is a one time thing. You turn your life over to Jesus, then you are saved. Is this not correct? For Catholics, salvation is a lifelong process which can be lost through our own fault. Thus we need all the help we can get to conform ourselves to his will, to follow his commandments, to have examples of repentance and forgiveness for us to follow. We need inspiring examples of saints who have been totally conformed to his will and shine out as lights in the darkness. We seek their intercession because we admire what they did through the power of God’s grace and we want to immitate their example as followers of Christ. We also seek their aid in living up to the standard they set.

 

[utunumsint]

I’d like to quote this passage from 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

The body is one and has many members, but all the members, many though they are, are one body; and so it is with Christ. It was in one Spirit that all of us, whether Jew or Greek, slave or free, were baptized into one body. All of us have been given to drink of the one Spirit.

If all believers are part of this one body, and that one body is Christ, then why can we not ask for a part of the body to pray for another part of the body, since that part of the body is Christ?

And another question: does God act directly to bring us to the knowledge of the truth, or does he use intermediaries? Does he use preachers. In short, does his grace come through to us through his chuch which constitutes the body of Christ, or directly from God?

God bless,
Ut