Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[AshleyBelle]

Leeann, please see my post above

We cannot point to Mary OR Jesus… To point to one, always includes the other

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If God can conceive a child with her, why can’t she approach God?

An exception for an exceptional person I would think.

She is *nothing *in comparison with Him - “less than an atom”, in fact (True Devotion 6). In comparison with God, there is nothing good, nothing holy - read St. Augustine, Cardinal Newman, St. John of the Cross, & others.​

She could be an exception only if she was not redeemed by Christ - she would have to belong to an unfallen, or rather Divine, race. If she is human at all, she is not an exception. Anything good in her she owes to the same Redeemer & Sanctifier as any other human being - far more so, in fact: she is exceptional in the greatness of the debt she owes to Him. If her salvation did not happen, then she is damned If it was on different terms from ours, then she is not really a human being.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

And you immediately contradicted yourself in the following explanation:-

Quite possibly, but you - or somebody - will need to show me…​

 

[Leeann]

Leeann:
In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

utunumsint:

For salvation, I would turn to Jesus. He is my one and only saviour God.

But after the resurection Jesus was no longer present except through the Holy Spirit. So to help us know Jesus, the Holy Spirit used intermediaries. For example:

• He gave us apostles who knew him. The apostles told people about Jesus and so mediated knowledge about Jesus to them.
• The apostles gave us scriptures so that we can know Jesus.
• Many passages in scripture recounting the life of Jesus could only have come to us through the Virgin Mary. For example, the nativity narrative. Information about Joseph. The presentation of Jesus at the temple. her conversation with him at the wedding feast of Cana. Jesus as a young boy learning and teaching at the temple. etc… All of this **was most likely **mediated to us through her.
• Mary also spend thirty three years of her life with our saviour. The apostles only spent three years of their life with him. The information of the last thirty years of his life **was most likely **mediated through her. . However the “crucial” 3 years that they spent with Him were ones where He taught them directly and often separate and alone.

• It is probably fair to say that know one knew Jesus as well as Mary. Mary wasn’t even able to understand what Jesus meant when he was 12 years old and teaching in the temple. When she and Joseph went back to find Him and He explained He was “going about His Father’s business” – they had no idea what He was talking about.

• Paul only saw Jesus for a moment in his vision on the way to Damascus. Everything else was mediated to him through the teachings of the apostles and the early Christians.

NO! This is not true. Paul went out immediately, on his own and began to preach the “gospel message” – he didn’t see Peter until 3 years later and only spent 15 days with him and he met James. Later, when Paul began visiting the churches, the Apostles heard the message he was preaching and “recognized” it as being the same “gospel message” and they approved of him and he was accepted by them. Galatians Ch.1

Anyway, my point is we can certainly say that Mary was a mediator of knowledge of Christ. If she knew Christ so well, why would you not avail yourself to her for prayers, knowing full well that we are not asking her for salvation? What we are relying on is her special relationship with her son. We are also turning to her as a spiritual mother, as a guide to her son’s will. As a guide to know the heart of her son. As a guide to conform ourselves to his will in our lives.

God bless,
Ut

P.S. You know, it occured to me that the problems you have with the Catholic understanding of Mary stems from your understanding of Salvation. For you it is a one time thing. You turn your life over to Jesus, then you are saved. Is this not correct?
You have “assumed” incorrectly.

For Catholics, salvation is a lifelong process which can be lost through our own fault. Thus we need all the help we can get to conform ourselves to his will, to follow his commandments, to have examples of repentance and forgiveness for us to follow. We need inspiring examples of saints who have been totally conformed to his will and shine out as lights in the darkness. We seek their intercession because we admire what they did through the power of God’s grace and we want to immitate their example as followers of Christ. We also seek their aid in living up to the standard they set.

Perhaps the “needs” that you are experiencing, are based on what you may be lacking in your relationship to the Lord. A very personal and real relationship, that fulfills those needs, when you place your faith and hope in Him and the Holy Spirit within you will direct and enable you to do His Will. More time spent in direct communication with HIM, will bring all the necessary inspiration to want to obey and follow Him.

As for examples – the Apostles are examples – in Hebrews there is a list of those lives that people can read and learn from – given as examples of great faith.

 

[Leeann]

utunumsint:
I’d like to quote this passage from 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
*The body is one and has many members, but all the members, many though they are, are one body; and so it is with Christ. It was in one Spirit that all of us, whether Jew or Greek, slave or free, were baptized into one body. All of us have been given to drink of the one Spirit. *

If all believers are part of this one body, and that one body is Christ, then why can we not ask for a part of the body to pray for another part of the body, since that part of the body is Christ?

And another question: does God act directly to bring us to the knowledge of the truth, or does he use intermediaries? Does he use preachers. In short, does his grace come through to us through his chuch which constitutes the body of Christ, or directly from God?

I believe both. Paul himself is an example of how God can and does work without the necessity of a church.
Of course he uses “preachers” – even the Catholic catechism attests to that – now – check it out on the Vatican website.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
James was writing to the scattered Christians –his words of encouragement for them were to urge them to support one another, those right there, together at that time….something that by doing and witnessing, right there amongst themselves….would strengthen their faith in times of persecution. The same holds true for us today.

TomaszA:
The question remains, why call on elders to pray for you when you can pray to Jesus directly? Why doesn’t it offend Jesus if I ask for another person to interceded for me when I can ask Him directly?

As I posted and stated previously – James wrote to those early Christians who were being persecuted and instructed them to encourage and support one another and instructed them to call on the elders to pray for them for healing – I believe he was inspired by the HS to do so – so I don’t believe that Jesus was offended by this at all….having His followers support and pray for one another as they struggled here on earth.

TomaszA:
I just don’t see how this is any different from asking Mary to pray for us.
Do you see what I’m saying?

In regards to the way the Pope was praying – directly to her and stating that if she wouldn’t help us…to whom are we to turn ??? – it certainly takes on a different meaning.

Do you see what I’m saying?

Leeann:
Whom do you think James would have pointed the Pope too……Mary or Jesus?

TomaszA:
I still think you view praying to Mary as competing with Jesus. Sort of like doing one detracts from the other. You have to understand that pointing to Mary doesn’t exclude Jesus, it requires Him. So in the context of James chapter 5 I’d say the Saintly Apostle could have easily pointed to Mary.

But he didn’t.

What do you mean by “Mary doesn’t exclude Jesus, it requires Him.”?

 

[Leeann]

You did not address Mary at the foot of the cross or God’s will to have Jesus come to the world through her…but…

You pose a false dichotomy. It’s like saying “Where would the apostles have you go…Jesus or the Church?” Or something like, “What does Jesus want you to do: believe in Him or love your neighbor?” I am directly addressing a prayer that the Pope prayed and asking a question with regards to that.

When in fact, if you love Jesus and believe Him, you will accept Mary as your mother, as He gave her to us at the foot of the cross. This is what the Catholic church teaches. It is not Mary INSTEAD of Jesus, as suggested by your question.

Again, this is what the Catholic church teaches…not the Apostles in their or Jesus for that matter.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by TomaszA **
The question remains, why call on elders to pray for you when you can pray to Jesus directly?

That is another excellent point. The apostle Paul exhorted (eg. Rm 15:30) his audience to pray on his behalf. But did he make this petition to people INSTEAD of Jesus?

Did St. Michael the Archangel smite the devil INSTEAD of Jesus? (Rev 12:7-8)
Were the believers healed by Paul’s handkerchief INSTEAD of by Jesus? (Act 19:12)
Did Peter heal a cripple INSTEAD of Jesus? (Acts 3:7)

No, the scope of Christ extends throughout His entire body, of which He is the head!

Indeed it does….His entire body of believers, not just the Catholic church and what it has taught, but what He and the Apostles– Paul of course being one of them taught. Paul asked for fellow, living believers to support him and pray for him – just as James encouraged those early living Christians to support one another and pray for one another.

As to St.Michael and the devil and Paul’s handkerchief and Peter healing ….I’m sure of the connection you are trying to make, as regards to the question of the thread topic?

To whom would the Apostles have pointed the Pope to….Mary….or Jesus?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Again, this is what the Catholic church teaches…not the Apostles in their or Jesus for that matter.

So…if I’m understanding correctly, the teachings handed to us through the catholic church are not the teachings of Christ or the Apostles? I guess the question would be, did Christ found a physical church? And if the “correct” teachings are in the Bible alone, where would we find proof that he did or did not?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I fear the lesson in humility is lost within your eisogete.

You ignore that God CHOSE Mary and HE approached Her!

Then, through the wedding in Canaan, He demonstrates for us all, that SHE has His ear, by responding to Her request!

**Clearly, your argument is with Him! **

Comments on the faults of a poster are no disqualification of a poster’s argument.​

Why should what St. Paul & Hebrews say be ignored ? Or doesn’t the NT matter unless it supports ideas that have the effect of undermining its witness to Christ ? Without Him, the BVM is not worth anything - which is surely not debatable. The NT tells justified sinners, which what Christians are, on what terms access to God is to be had. The wedding in Cana has no bearing on that - it has other lessons for us. As for eisegesis: better St.Paul than some uninspired author: what* he* teaches is reliable, as it is not of his invention.

As to Cana:

• Jhn 2:1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jhn 2:1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
• Jhn 2:2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.
• Jhn 2:3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
• John 2:4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”
• Jhn 2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
• Jhn 2:6 Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
• Jhn 2:7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim.
• Jhn 2:8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it.
• Jhn 2:9 When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom
• Jhn 2:10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”
• Jhn 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
• Jhn 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days.
  Verse 4, like some others, does not exactly encourage the idea that she “has his ear” any more or less than anyone else. She is no different from any other Christian - it is God & His Grace, ***not ***Mary, Who makes the difference. But for God’s Grace, she would be in the pit of Hell. Shocking as that may be, & unpleasant as it is even to think, it follows from the need for grace. Without grace, salvation cannot be.

 

[Leeann]

Apologize for so many posts all at one time…been away all day and evening and just trying to catch up!

 

[Leeann]

twb1621:
The Apostles in all likelihood would have occasionally went to Mary as the Mother of Christ who they loved, honored and cared for very deeply for comfort and I am sure at times for advice while maintaining a direct reverence for our Lord WHOM THEY KNEW PERSONALLY WERE TAUGHT BY AND WORSHIPED TO THE POINT OF MARTYRDOM.

as I explained to you before in this effort;
If our Lord Jesus were to stand before each of us in regard to this, I am quite confident of His displeasure. Isn’t it realistic to believe that our Lord would voice Himself in a manner such as this?

…How DARE you express a denial of honor showing disrespect to My mother whom I Myself loved, honored and respected from the beginning. The woman so blessed by My Heavenly Father to be chosen from all human kind as my mother and who’s very blood I share. My mother, who my Apostles loved and respected as their own in my absence until she rejoined me in my Father’s house. You, who show honor to women for being the mothers of your fallen one’s, your men so blessed from Heaven with their God given talents in sports, military, peace making and alike. Yet you refuse to show honor to this Blessed Virgin who birthed me? …As though less due honor and respect than those you pay honor to… Continue to deny My mother of due respect and honor, mocking and judging others for doing so and learn the path you choose. For the honor showed to My mother will never be as deep as what I hold for her but what you can and should offer in her honor is reflective of even more Honor and Worship to Me…

posted by Leean:

Or perhaps like this?

How DARE you tamper with the “gospel message” that I preached and taught my Apostles to present to the world and to future generations that would believe on Me by their words, by teaching and entwining new “dogmas” and rules and regulations to bind men up again. I came and died to set men free from bondage to manmade “religions”. I am Spirit and am to be worshipped in Spirit. How DARE you try and confine Me to your one “church”. What kind of word is “dogma” anyway - My doctrine of salvation was based on the pure truth - based solely on the belief and acceptance of what the Apostles taught – that salvation was available to all mankind because of MY blood sacrifice. As to other teachings there were no stipulations as to what “church” one had to be a member of in order to obtain MY Graces, there were no stipulations as to what type of sins and “how” to categorize them in order for them to be forgiven – there were no stipulations on praying to those who are heaven to intercede on your behalf – there were no stipulations given of having to confess your sins to a “priest” – I AM THE PRIEST – and as for my mother – how DARE you use her as a backdoor entrance to MY Throne of Grace – using her, as some do, to try and appease Me. She weeps every time one bows to her and addresses her instead of coming to Me, for she knows better than any WHY I was tortured before her and WHY I shed MY blood and WHY I died and rose again…to be the MEDIATOR for all mankind. She wants the honor and glory to be given to Me and Me alone, as any mother would. You dishonor her by your statues, by your feasts, by your supplications, by your attention directed to her.
I warned of false teachers already among us when I walked the earth and my Apostles warned the early Christian churches to adhere too and hold fast to the message they had preached to them and not to accept any other gospel.
Beware of any judgment as to how others honor my mother…for I know their intentions, I know their hearts and minds and spirits and I know what “gospel message” they follow.

To explain it simply, the Catholic faith does not worship the Blessed Virgin but we certainly do honor Her with the respect befitting the Holy Mother of Jesus Christ. She is at times referred to as the “Queen of Heaven” based on recorded history and The Old Testament of The Holy Bible, which attests to the fact that the mother of a king held the seat of Queen and sat at his right hand with the highest position of influence to the king. Jesus is the King of Heaven. The blood of the Blessed Virgin flowed through the veins of our Lord just as the Blood of our Lord flowed through the veins of His Mother during Her pregnancy. As Jesus Christ is Her Son and the King of Heaven according to Scripture, and in testament to the fact that He brought all things of the Old Testament to fulfillment, to contradict Her position as the Queen of Heaven would be to contradict the word of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament itself. And do we not honor the mothers of our fallen soldiers, policeman and others? Of course we do.

Too much explaining is necessary.

 

[AshleyBelle]

The Apostles in all likelihood would have occasionally went to Mary as the Mother of Christ who they loved, honored and cared for very deeply for comfort and I am sure at times for advice while maintaining a direct reverence for our Lord WHOM THEY KNEW PERSONALLY WERE TAUGHT BY AND WORSHIPED TO THE POINT OF MARTYRDOM.

as I explained to you before in this effort;
If our Lord Jesus were to stand before each of us in regard to this, I am quite confident of His displeasure. Isn’t it realistic to believe that our Lord would voice Himself in a manner such as this?

…How DARE you express a denial of honor showing disrespect to My mother whom I Myself loved, honored and respected from the beginning. The woman so blessed by My Heavenly Father to be chosen from all human kind as my mother and who’s very blood I share. My mother, who my Apostles loved and respected as their own in my absence until she rejoined me in my Father’s house. You, who show honor to women for being the mothers of your fallen one’s, your men so blessed from Heaven with their God given talents in sports, military, peace making and alike. Yet you refuse to show honor to this Blessed Virgin who birthed me? …As though less due honor and respect than those you pay honor to… Continue to deny My mother of due respect and honor, mocking and judging others for doing so and learn the path you choose. For the honor showed to My mother will never be as deep as what I hold for her but what you can and should offer in her honor is reflective of even more Honor and Worship to Me…

posted by Leean:

Or perhaps like this?

How DARE you tamper with the “gospel message” that I preached and taught my Apostles to present to the world and to future generations that would believe on Me by their words, by teaching and entwining new “dogmas” and rules and regulations to bind men up again. I came and died to set men free from bondage to manmade “religions”. I am Spirit and am to be worshipped in Spirit. How DARE you try and confine Me to your one “church”. What kind of word is “dogma” anyway - My doctrine of salvation was based on the pure truth - based solely on the belief and acceptance of what the Apostles taught – that salvation was available to all mankind because of MY blood sacrifice. As to other teachings there were no stipulations as to what “church” one had to be a member of in order to obtain MY Graces, there were no stipulations as to what type of sins and “how” to categorize them in order for them to be forgiven – there were no stipulations on praying to those who are heaven to intercede on your behalf – there were no stipulations given of having to confess your sins to a “priest” – I AM THE PRIEST – and as for my mother – how DARE you use her as a backdoor entrance to MY Throne of Grace – using her, as some do, to try and appease Me. She weeps every time one bows to her and addresses her instead of coming to Me, for she knows better than any WHY I was tortured before her and WHY I shed MY blood and WHY I died and rose again…to be the MEDIATOR for all mankind. She wants the honor and glory to be given to Me and Me alone, as any mother would. You dishonor her by your statues, by your feasts, by your supplications, by your attention directed to her.
I warned of false teachers already among us when I walked the earth and my Apostles warned the early Christian churches to adhere too and hold fast to the message they had preached to them and not to accept any other gospel.
Beware of any judgment as to how others honor my mother…for I know their intentions, I know their hearts and minds and spirits and I know what “gospel message” they follow.

To explain it simply, the Catholic faith does not worship the Blessed Virgin but we certainly do honor Her with the respect befitting the Holy Mother of Jesus Christ. She is at times referred to as the “Queen of Heaven” based on recorded history and The Old Testament of The Holy Bible, which attests to the fact that the mother of a king held the seat of Queen and sat at his right hand with the highest position of influence to the king. Jesus is the King of Heaven. The blood of the Blessed Virgin flowed through the veins of our Lord just as the Blood of our Lord flowed through the veins of His Mother during Her pregnancy. As Jesus Christ is Her Son and the King of Heaven according to Scripture, and in testament to the fact that He brought all things of the Old Testament to fulfillment, to contradict Her position as the Queen of Heaven would be to contradict the word of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament itself. And do we not honor the mothers of our fallen soldiers, policeman and others? Of course we do.

Too much explaining is necessary.

While I understand and admire your passion, I have to read this and shake my head.

“I am Spirit and am to be worshipped in Spirit. How DARE you try and confine Me to your one “church”. What kind of word is “dogma” anyway”

Where does Christ ask us to worship him only in spirit? Did he dwell among us as spirit, or as flesh?

And do you really believe Christ would speak like this? “What kind of word is dogma anyway???” This is not the loving language of our Lord

 

[Leeann]

I am still fairly new to my faith, but I will try to offer something that I’ve been thinking about…

First, you must realize that when we pray to Mary, it is because we love her son.

Mary, the Mother of God, was God’s chosen vessel on earth for the honor of carying, raising, and sharing our Lord in a very special way. She was preserved, saved from the stain of original sin, by God, through Christ, which makes her unique in all of God’s creation. She is a created person, a child of God. She is the perfect model for us of Christian love because she is the perfect daughter of God, bride of the holy spirit, and mother of our Lord.

You state that Mary was “preserved, saved from the stain of original sin” which “makes her unique in all of God’s creation” and then go on to state that “she is a created person, a child of God.” We who believe are all “children of God” are we not.
As for being the “perfect model for us of Christian love”, how can you say she is a perfect model for us – “normal” human beings - (meaning not “unique” as you describe Mary as having been) if she was already “unique” (by no means of her own) – what kind of example is that for us to attain too…by your definition…she had a “head start”.

Her “humanity” was what God desired to bring into fulfillment the plan of Jesus being both human and God while He walked this earth.

The Catholic church teachings have all but stripped her of that “humanity” that God so wanted and in place has taught that Mary herself was ‘holy’ before she was born – in the “dogma” of the “Immaculate Conception”.

AshleyBelle:
Christ, as fully man and fully God, took on the flesh so that he could dwell among us. He was born of a woman, thus connecting that woman to him in a very special way. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, Mary was present, suffering with him. “And your heart, a sword will pierce.” as the scriptures say. Mary’s heart was pierced, and she suffered with Christ crucified.

As any normal, human mother would.

AshleyBelle:
Because of this connection, of our Mother Mary, and her Son, Christ, it is impossible to seperate the two!

Why?

Ashley Belle:
Mary is united perfectly to Christ, just as we will be united in heaven. It is impossible to “implore Mary” or “point to Mary” without also pointing to Christ!

But there is no need to do so in the first place.

AshleyBelle:
Please forgive me if I’ve misrepresented anything, but this is my understanding of our blessed mother

Thank you AshleyBelle, I sincerely appreciate your comments and (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Again, this is what the Catholic church teaches…not the Apostles in their or Jesus for that matter.

AshleyBelle:
So…if I’m understanding correctly, the teachings handed to us through the catholic church are not the teachings of Christ or the Apostles?

Not what they originally set out…which was what was necessary for a person’s salvation and obedience and steadfastness in faith. They taught that all true and faithful and obedient believers of the gospel message could obtain salvation – and had become members of His body and would receive the Holy Spirit. They never taught that you must belong to the “Catholic church” in order to receive His Graces that can only be dispensed by them in order to be considered “valid” – they never taught that you must believe in any Marian Dogmas. These are just a couple.

AshleyBelle:
I guess the question would be, did Christ found a physical church?

His Apostles established the very early church and laid out how it should be set up and what should be taught/preached…and warned that there would be false teachers then…and in the future and to not veer away from the gospel message that they had been taught.

AshleyBelle:
And if the “correct” teachings are in the Bible alone, where would we find proof that he did or did not?

Did or did not what?

 

[Leeann]

tomaszA:

The Scriptures never limits intercession to Christians on earth but this is not the issue. I was responding to a specific statement of Leeann’s. She said the Pope was wrong for encouraging Catholics to petition Mary for prayers because they could pray to Jesus directly. The issue I was responding to was not whether Christians in heaven can be made aware of our petitions but whether intercession itself is possible.

I mentioned James 5 because it supports intercession. Now you mention that the scriptures command us to pray for each other, but this particular passage tells us to call on others to pray for us. In other words, instead of me praying directly to Jesus, I can call on some saintly elders to pray on my behalf. This is the principle of intercession and it reveals that a Christian does no wrong when he calls on another to pray on their behalf.

The “pray to Jesus directly” is a misnomer because it’s impossible to pray without the Son of God.

The phrase “pray to Jesus” – I should have stated – “pray through Him” directly to the Father in His name – does that help any tomaszA – meaning going to Him directly to pray – no need of others in heaven to intercede.Of course if you are “praising Him” directly, one might consider that “prayer to Jesus”.

tomaszA:
When I call on an elder to pray for me it’s not like I’m bypassing Jesus Christ, no! They are praying to Jesus on my behalf. Likewise, when I petition Mary to pray for me, she’s not bypassing Jesus, she’s praying to Him on my behalf! Now why would I petition Mary to pray to Jesus when I can offer it “directly” to the King Himself? Because she is FAR more righteous than I am, and I am confident that her Son is far more likely to accept my petition through her than through me directly!

You see, intercession pleases God not just because it reflects our fraternal love, but also because it reflects humility.

Quote:Justasking4
You are appealing to the dead (even though they may be alive) and believing they can hear you and do something about it. This kind of thing has no support in the Scriptures.

tomaszA:
I’m not sure this is the case. In the Revelation of St John, when he went up to heaven he actually heard the prayers of the people on earth. He saw angels offering the prayers of saints on earth to God as incense. In this language we can see that the Saints of heaven are capable of knowing our prayers.

But we also see that it is “the twenty four elders” – no indication that these prayers were given to the angels by those in heaven that simply heard them.
Rev 5: 8 (Douay Rheims online)
8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and **the four and twenty ancients **fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:
Interestingly enough – in the commentary below this verse it reads:
*8 “The prayers of saints”… Here we see that the saints in heaven offer up to Christ the prayers of the faithful upon earth. *However, there is no indication whatsoever – that the “four and twenty ancients” are
“the saints in heaven” - however this how it is interpreted and taught by the Catholic church. By the way, how many “Saints”, according to the Catholic church that can be prayed too, are there in heaven now – more than 24?

tomaszA:
How can the Christians of heaven “hear” our prayer? Well they can’t hear per se because they’re not on earth, however they can know our petitions through God. Since the Elect of heaven are in the presence of God, in union with Him, and contemplating His Face, He is capable of revealing to them when someone petitions them for prayer.

But no where is this revealed as being a “fact”.

**tomaszA:**We also know through experience that the Saints in heaven can know our petitions and that their intercession can help us because there are countless miracles attributed to the Saints in heaven!

I hate to say this, but there is no evidence at all that the “countless miracles” are attributed to the ones in heaven. There are other sources that can produce “countless miracles” – even seemingly good ones – in order to delude – and distract from the worship of God.

Quote:justasking4
The Scriptures warn of this kind of thing in 2 Corinthians 11:3 where it says:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

tomaszA:
Going back to James 5, wouldn’t I be making the elders of the Church “mediators” between me and Christ when I call on them to pray on my behalf? I honestly don’t understand the objection. The point of calling on another to pray for you is not to create an obstacle between you and Jesus but to get closer to Jesus.

Maybe you can explain it to me?

I was late posting my replies with regards to James5 and about the type of intercession and why it was recommended amongst the Christians that were being persecuted – for support and encouragement amongst themselves – and the same holds true for us today. James 5 doesn’t mention intercession to ones who are in heaven.

 

[Leeann]

tomaszA:
It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. or Rev. 8:3-4),

Again in Rev.8:3-4 it does not say “the saints in Heaven” it refers to the prayers of the saints – Christians living and praying on earth are “saints” …

and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession. Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: “When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power.” If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother. ok, go for it.

By the fourth century, the Catholic church was well on its way from being the true church that the Apostles had established.

Peace,
Tom (If I become too zealous, just smack me):slapfight:

Just kidding!

 

[Leeann]

AshleyBelle
While I understand and admire your passion, I have to read this and shake my head.

“I am Spirit and am to be worshipped in Spirit. How DARE you try and confine Me to your one “church”. What kind of word is “dogma” anyway”

Where does Christ ask us to worship him only in spirit? Did he dwell among us as spirit, or as flesh?

As I understand it He dwelt among us as BOTH! Man/God.

Jesus was explaining to a woman who had questioned Him about “where” people should be worshipping God as the Jews worshipped one place and her people another – His reply was:

New Jerusalem Bible

*19 ‘I see you are a prophet, sir,’ said the woman.
20 ‘Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, though you say that Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.’
21 Jesus said: Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know; for salvation comes from the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming – indeed is already here – when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth: that is the kind of worshipper the Father seeks.
24 **God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth. ***

The “dialogue” given, was with the idea of Him being in heaven now, looking on – Is He not part of the “triune God” we believe in.

AshleyBelle:
And do you really believe Christ would speak like this? “What kind of word is dogma anyway???” This is not the loving language of our Lord

Here is some language of our Lord. He is especially descriptive in Verse 24!

Matthew 23: (Douary Rheims)

13 But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.
14 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees,** hypocrites**: because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment.
15 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, **you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves. **
16 Woe to you blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple, is a debtor.
17 Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gift that is upon it, is a debtor.

And

24 Blind guides, **who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel. **
25 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you make clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but within you are full of rapine and uncleanness.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, first make clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside may become clean.
27 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful, **but within are full of dead men’s bones, and of all filthiness. **
28 So you also outwardly indeed appear to men just; but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

 

[Deconi]

Comments on the faults of a poster are no disqualification of a poster’s argument.​

Why should what St. Paul & Hebrews say be ignored ? Or doesn’t the NT matter unless it supports ideas that have the effect of undermining its witness to Christ ? Without Him, the BVM is not worth anything - which is surely not debatable. The NT tells justified sinners, which what Christians are, on what terms access to God is to be had. The wedding in Cana has no bearing on that - it has other lessons for us. As for eisegesis: better St.Paul than some uninspired author: what* he* teaches is reliable, as it is not of his invention.
.

Humbly, Gottle, if you extend your view above, you will go round and round in your circle of confusion between the chicken and the egg!

Without Him, there is no BVM. But without the BVM, there is no Jesus. But without Jesus, Who is “Him,” there is no BVM. But without the BVM…etc., etc.

Then you would need to insert an argument into the given Scriptures; “But God would have done this, done that, chosen this, chosen that! God would have…should have…could have…etc., etc.”

The known fact is, God The Son, NEEDED to be human, or otherwise His sufferings would be MEANINGLESS!!

Meaningless, because an argument can be made that He would not TRULY know how hard it is to be human and trying to be righteous! Now, this argument is negated, for He was truly human and felt every stroke of that whip and hammer! He truly died, as a human dies!..etc., etc.

SO! Is His ‘human’ nature, from His Father, or His Mother? Whom, of the two, do we know to be fully human?

Again, I say, if your view is that The Almighty True God of Righteousness, made an error in His choice of The BVM, or that He USED Her, or anyone, as a ‘worthless’ carrier to be discarded when He had finished, like a prostitute, then your argument is with Him!

As to Cana:

• Jhn 2:1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jhn 2:1 On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there;
• Jhn 2:2 Jesus also was invited to the marriage, with his disciples.
• Jhn 2:3 When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
• John 2:4 And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”
• Jhn 2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
• Jhn 2:6 Now six stone jars were standing there, for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
• Jhn 2:7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim.
• Jhn 2:8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it.
• Jhn 2:9 When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom
• Jhn 2:10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”
• Jhn 2:11 This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
• Jhn 2:12 After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days.
  Verse 4, like some others, does not exactly encourage the idea that she “has his ear” any more or less than anyone else. …

Keep reading and re-reading that Verse 4!!..for what follows in the rest of the passage does not support you!

However, I would urge that you examine the ACTUAL Catholic exegete of the passage in its entirety so that you do not adopt another error…that The BVM can ‘force’ God into anything! (Yes, I’ve seen n-Cs claim that’s what ‘we’ believe!)

She is no different from any other Christian - it is God & His Grace, ***not ***Mary, Who makes the difference. But for God’s Grace, she would be in the pit of Hell. Shocking as that may be, & unpleasant as it is even to think, it follows from the need for grace. Without grace, salvation cannot be.

She is as human as every other Christian. But there, the similarities end!

She is THE ONLY HUMAN created by God and ‘filled to the brim’ by His Grace! She is the only human, born of another human, free from sin! She is the only human, CHOSEN BY GOD to bear His SON! She is the only human who called God, “son.”

Yet, NOT ONCE, did she ever utter the words, boastfully or humbly, “My son is God!” What she did is suffer a mother’s pain and anguish for her son throughout His life and remained faithful to her ‘promise’, "Let it be done unto me, according to Thy Will "

 

[mercygate]

Regarding my “quote” above - what part of the “gospel message” that they preached and taught with regards to the salvation of people – where was Mary brought into that message – the need of believing in the Marian dogmas? – the need of praying to her or honoring her to the extent of dedicating the “world” to her??? Could you please help me out here and indicate more specifically when these important events occurred?

The Marian dogmas arise early in Church history as a result of the heresies arising from the 2nd through the 4th centuries that challenged and denied either Our Lord’s humanity or His divinity.

For example, the declaration of Our Lady as “Theotokos,” “Mother of God” – which all mainline Protestants accept to this very day – in 431 A.D. settled the matter once and for all that Jesus was both divine and human and that he was truly born of a woman . . . The title, “Mother of God,” dogmatizes what was understood by the Church from the beginning but insufficiently delineated in Scripture alone (as we can see in modern times with the JWs and Mormons).

Our Lord promised to the Eleven (only the Eleven were in the room) at his farewell discourse that He would send ‘another paraclete who will guide you into all the truth’ and again, at His Ascension, with the Great Commission, he gave to the Eleven the mission of “teaching.”

From Scripture we see that “all the truth” is not always known from the beginning – for example, the Jerusalem council in Acts shows us that the Holy Spirit guided the struggling Church to define the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New as the Church expanded into the gentile world.