Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[TomaszA]

James was writing to the scattered Christians –his words of encouragement for them were to urge them to support one another, those right there, together at that time….something that by doing and witnessing, right there amongst themselves….would strengthen their faith in times of persecution. The same holds true for us today.

The question remains, why call on elders to pray for you when you can pray to Jesus directly? Why doesn’t it offend Jesus if I ask for another person to interceded for me when I can ask Him directly?

I just don’t see how this is any different from asking Mary to pray for us.

Do you see what I’m saying?

Whom do you think James would have pointed the Pope too……Mary or Jesus?

I still think you view praying to Mary as competing with Jesus. Sort of like doing one detracts from the other. You have to understand that pointing to Mary doesn’t exclude Jesus, it requires Him. So in the context of James chapter 5 I’d say the Saintly Apostle could have easily pointed to Mary.

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[MarcoPolo]

[Again I ask – to whom would the Apostles point too – Mary….or Jesus?[/COLOLOR]

You did not address Mary at the foot of the cross or God’s will to have Jesus come to the world through her…but…

You pose a false dichotomy. It’s like saying “Where would the apostles have you go…Jesus or the Church?” Or something like, “What does Jesus want you to do: believe in Him or love your neighbor?”

When in fact, if you love Jesus and believe Him, you will accept Mary as your mother, as He gave her to us at the foot of the cross. It is not Mary INSTEAD of Jesus, as suggested by your question.

 

[Glorfindel]

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In view of the Pope saying - "we will not know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no man can come to the Father but through Jesus Christ, and Christ alone, so sadly I wish he had directed his Prayers to the Great High Priest and Mediator.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The question remains, why call on elders to pray for you when you can pray to Jesus directly?

That is another excellent point. The apostle Paul exhorted (eg. Rm 15:30) his audience to pray on his behalf. But did he make this petition to people INSTEAD of Jesus?

Did St. Michael the Archangel smite the devil INSTEAD of Jesus? (Rev 12:7-8)
Were the believers healed by Paul’s handkerchief INSTEAD of by Jesus? (Act 19:12)
Did Peter heal a cripple INSTEAD of Jesus? (Acts 3:7)

No, the scope of Christ extends throughout His entire body, of which He is the head!

 

[justasking4]

TomaszA;4349150]The question remains, why call on elders to pray for you when you can pray to Jesus directly? Why doesn’t it offend Jesus if I ask for another person to interceded for me when I can ask Him directly?

I just don’t see how this is any different from asking Mary to pray for us.

Do you see what I’m saying?

The Scriptures command that those believers who are alive in this world are to pray directly to God for each other. What you are promoting is something that is different in nature. You are appealing to the dead (even though they may be alive) and believing they can hear you and do something about it. This kind of thing has no support in the Scriptures.

I still think you view praying to Mary as competing with Jesus. Sort of like doing one detracts from the other. You have to understand that pointing to Mary doesn’t exclude Jesus, it requires Him. So in the context of James chapter 5 I’d say the Saintly Apostle could have easily pointed to Mary.

The Scriptures warn of this kind of thing in 2 Corinthians 11:3 where it says:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

The Scriptures are clear that Christ alone is be our only focus in prayer. The Scriptures do not give room to any other others in prayer directly to God. No other mediator is necessary nor possible between Christ and us.

God bless,

Tomasz

 

[twb1621]

The Scriptures command that those believers who are alive in this world are to pray directly to God for each other. What you are promoting is something that is different in nature. You are appealing to the dead (even though they may be alive) and believing they can hear you and do something about it. This kind of thing has no support in the Scriptures.

The Scriptures warn of this kind of thing in 2 Corinthians 11:3 where it says:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

The Scriptures are clear that Christ alone is be our only focus in prayer. The Scriptures do not give room to any other others in prayer directly to God. No other mediator is necessary nor possible between Christ and us.

Tomasz

Now JA4… Haven’t so many of us gone over this already with you on the other thread? and the thread before that? Now you know that asking Mary to pray in intervention with her Son on your behalf is (other than her unique relationship with Our Lord and the fact that she is the Queen of Heaven and that is Biblical) no different than asking any saint or living person for that matter to pray for you so why are you starting with these questions all over again?

 

[twb1621]

The Scriptures command that those believers who are alive in this world are to pray directly to God for each other. What you are promoting is something that is different in nature. You are appealing to the dead (even though they may be alive) and believing they can hear you and do something about it. This kind of thing has no support in the Scriptures.

The Scriptures warn of this kind of thing in 2 Corinthians 11:3 where it says:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

The Scriptures are clear that Christ alone is be our only focus in prayer. The Scriptures do not give room to any other others in prayer directly to God. No other mediator is necessary nor possible between Christ and us.
Tomasz

The Apostles in all likelihood would have occasionally went to Mary as the Mother of Christ who they loved, honored and cared for very deeply for comfort and I am sure at times for advice while maintaining a direct reverence for our Lord WHOM THEY KNEW PERSONALLY WERE TAUGHT BY AND WORSHIPED TO THE POINT OF MARTYRDOM.

as I explained to you before in this effort;
If our Lord Jesus were to stand before each of us in regard to this, I am quite confident of His displeasure. Isn’t it realistic to believe that our Lord would voice Himself in a manner such as this?

…How DARE you express a denial of honor showing disrespect to My mother whom I Myself loved, honored and respected from the beginning. The woman so blessed by My Heavenly Father to be chosen from all human kind as my mother and who’s very blood I share. My mother, who my Apostles loved and respected as their own in my absence until she rejoined me in my Father’s house. You, who show honor to women for being the mothers of your fallen one’s, your men so blessed from Heaven with their God given talents in sports, military, peace making and alike. Yet you refuse to show honor to this Blessed Virgin who birthed me? …As though less due honor and respect than those you pay honor to… Continue to deny My mother of due respect and honor, mocking and judging others for doing so and learn the path you choose. For the honor showed to My mother will never be as deep as what I hold for her but what you can and should offer in her honor is reflective of even more Honor and Worship to Me…

To explain it simply, the Catholic faith does not worship the Blessed Virgin but we certainly do honor Her with the respect befitting the Holy Mother of Jesus Christ. She is at times referred to as the “Queen of Heaven” based on recorded history and The Old Testament of The Holy Bible, which attests to the fact that the mother of a king held the seat of Queen and sat at his right hand with the highest position of influence to the king. Jesus is the King of Heaven. The blood of the Blessed Virgin flowed through the veins of our Lord just as the Blood of our Lord flowed through the veins of His Mother during Her pregnancy. As Jesus Christ is Her Son and the King of Heaven according to Scripture, and in testament to the fact that He brought all things of the Old Testament to fulfillment, to contradict Her position as the Queen of Heaven would be to contradict the word of our heavenly Father in the Old Testament itself. And do we not honor the mothers of our fallen soldiers, policeman and others? Of course we do.

 

[TomaszA]

Peace Justasking

The Scriptures command that those believers who are alive in this world are to pray directly to God for each other. What you are promoting is something that is different in nature.

The Scriptures never limits intercession to Christians on earth but this is not the issue. I was responding to a specific statement of Leeann’s. She said the Pope was wrong for encouraging Catholics to petition Mary for prayers because they could pray to Jesus directly. The issue I was responding to was not whether Christians in heaven can be made aware of our petitions but whether intercession itself is possible.

I mentioned James 5 because it supports intercession. Now you mention that the scriptures command us to pray for each other, but this particular passage tells us to call on others to pray for us. In other words, instead of me praying directly to Jesus, I can call on some saintly elders to pray on my behalf. This is the principle of intercession and it reveals that a Christian does no wrong when he calls on another to pray on their behalf.

The “pray to Jesus directly” is a misnomer because it’s impossible to pray without the Son of God. When I call on an elder to pray for me it’s not like I’m bypassing Jesus Christ, no! They are praying to Jesus on my behalf. Likewise, when I petition Mary to pray for me, she’s not bypassing Jesus, she’s praying to Him on my behalf! Now why would I petition Mary to pray to Jesus when I can offer it “directly” to the King Himself? Because she is FAR more righteous than I am, and I am confident that her Son is far more likely to accept my petition through her than through me directly!

You see, intercession pleases God not just because it reflects our fraternal love, but also because it reflects humility.

You are appealing to the dead (even though they may be alive) and believing they can hear you and do something about it. This kind of thing has no support in the Scriptures.

I’m not sure this is the case. In the Revelation of St John, when he went up to heaven he actually heard the prayers of the people on earth. He saw angels offering the prayers of saints on earth to God as incense. In this language we can see that the Saints of heaven are capable of knowing our prayers.

How can the Christians of heaven “hear” our prayer? Well they can’t hear per se because they’re not on earth, however they can know our petitions through God. Since the Elect of heaven are in the presence of God, in union with Him, and contemplating His Face, He is capable of revealing to them when someone petitions them for prayer.

We also know through experience that the Saints in heaven can know our petitions and that their intercession can help us because there are countless miracles attributed to the Saints in heaven!

The Scriptures warn of this kind of thing in 2 Corinthians 11:3 where it says:
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

I guess the point here is that intercession detracts from the “simplicity” of faith? If you look at the NIV or ESV translations they don’t contain the word “simplicity,” but “sincere.” I simply disagree because the principle of intercession is clearly in the Bible.

The Scriptures are clear that Christ alone is be our only focus in prayer. The Scriptures do not give room to any other others in prayer directly to God. No other mediator is necessary nor possible between Christ and us.

Going back to James 5, wouldn’t I be making the elders of the Church “mediators” between me and Christ when I call on them to pray on my behalf? I honestly don’t understand the objection. The point of calling on another to pray for you is not to create an obstacle between you and Jesus but to get closer to Jesus.

Maybe you can explain it to me?

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[MarcoPolo]

Now JA4… Haven’t so many of us gone over this already with you on the other thread? and the thread before that?

And the thread before that.

 

[Henning]

very their Master Jesus, IMO…Hb12:2 “Looking unto Jesus…”

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by twb1621
Now JA4… Haven’t so many of us gone over this already with you on the other thread? and the thread before that?

MarcoPolo;
And the thread before that.

And i have to keep refuting this thread after thread…

 

[twb1621]

And i have to keep refuting this thread after thread…

But why do you ask questions over and over when you know you don’t care about the answer. You know what the answers will be, only to rebute the answers all the time.

 

[justasking4]

But why do you ask questions over and over when you know you don’t care about the answer. You know what the answers will be, only to rebute the answers all the time.

Not all questions and answers are identical. It depends on the situation and what i learn here and elsewhere. I do care about most answers otherwise i would not have been able to post so much…

 

[twb1621]

Not all questions and answers are identical. It depends on the situation and what i learn here and elsewhere. I do care about most answers otherwise i would not have been able to post so much…

When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man.  They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints.  They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven.  "For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much." (James 5:16).  How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ!  St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him:  "Brethren, pray for us." (2 Thess. 3:1).  And again:  "I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God . . ."  (Rom. 15:30).  Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her.  And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother.  (John 2:2-11). 
It is clear in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned in prayer (Apoc. or Rev. 8:3-4), and it is clear in the records of primitive Christianity that the first Christians eagerly sought their intercession.  Wrote St. John Chrysostom in the fourth century: "When thou perceivest that God is chastening thee, fly not to His enemies, but to His friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to Him, and who have great power." If the saints have such power with God, how much more His own Mother. ok, go for it.:D

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Oh yes! Of course it would be!
Just as hopefully that all our wills are/or are being fashioned to be.
(regardung Mary’s will being as Jesus’/God’s)

fix:
Not as those in heaven and not as Mary.

Do you not believe that we will all have the same Will as God once we are with Him?

Leeann:
However that in itself does not afford Mary any greater authority or power to approach His throne of Grace…we all, as faithful and true believers in the “gospel message” that He and His Apostles preached, believing and accepting that He died for our sins…believing in His blood sacrifice…and BECAUSE of that sacrifice, have the privilege of being partakers of His Grace and are united in His body and are permitted and encouraged to approach Him with confidence, that He will hear us and help us in our times of trouble, according to His Will.

fix:

I quote the Catechism:

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son "who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties."28 Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the way” (hodigitria), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

2679 Mary is the perfect *Orans *(pray-er), a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple we welcome Jesus’ mother into our homes,39 for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.40

492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son”.136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love”.

Thank you for these quotations – all taught by the Catholic church – but never mentioned by Jesus himself or any of His Apostles as they taught the pure and true “gospel message” for the salvation of all mankind. The question still stands to whom would the Apostles point……Mary or Jesus?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

I believe they have been misled by the Catholic church over the years and have placed their faith more in the “church” and what it teaches,rather than in God and what He teaches.

a quote posted by fix:

He stressed that “the twelve Apostles are the clearest sign of Jesus’ will concerning the existence and mission of His Church, the guarantee that there is no contrast between Christ and the Church.”

What else can he to stress? Having to maintain that the Catholic church (*over the years and as it is *known today ) is the one that Jesus and the Apostles originally established…by claiming it doesn’t make it true.

In this light, Benedict said that the slogan which became fashionable some years ago: ‘Yes to Jesus, no to the Church,’ is completely irreconcilable with the intentions of Christ."

Or ‘Yes to Jesus,no to the Church’ is perhaps completely irreconcilable with the intentions of the Catholic church?

“Between the Son of God made flesh and His Church there exists a profound, unbreakable and mysterious continuity, by virtue of which Christ is present today in His people, and especially in those who are the successors of the Apostles.”

Christ is indeed present today in His people within the Catholic church – by virtue of their belief in His blood sacrifice and their faith placed in HIM – not in the “church” – there are some around!

 

[AshleyBelle]

Do you not believe that we will all have the same Will as God once we are with Him?

Thank you for these quotations – all taught by the Catholic church – but never mentioned by Jesus himself or any of His Apostles as they taught the pure and true “gospel message” for the salvation of all mankind. The question still stands to whom would the Apostles point……Mary or Jesus?

I am still fairly new to my faith, but I will try to offer something that I’ve been thinking about…

First, you must realize that when we pray to Mary, it is because we love her son.

Mary, the Mother of God, was God’s chosen vessel on earth for the honor of carying, raising, and sharing our Lord in a very special way. She was preserved, saved from the stain of original sin, by God, through Christ, which makes her unique in all of God’s creation. She is a created person, a child of God. She is the perfect model for us of Christian love because she is the perfect daughter of God, bride of the holy spirit, and mother of our Lord.

Christ, as fully man and fully God, took on the flesh so that he could dwell among us. He was born of a woman, thus connecting that woman to him in a very special way. When Jesus died on the cross for our sins, Mary was present, suffering with him. “And your heart, a sword will pierce.” as the scriptures say. Mary’s heart was pierced, and she suffered with Christ crucified. Because of this connection, of our Mother Mary, and her Son, Christ, it is impossible to seperate the two! Mary is united perfectly to Christ, just as we will be united in heaven. It is impossible to “implore Mary” or “point to Mary” without also pointing to Christ!

Please forgive me if I’ve misrepresented anything, but this is my understanding of our blessed mother

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **

But there is no indication that Mary accompanied or assisted the Apostles as they went out preaching and establishing the churches, no mention in their teaching and preaching of the “gospel message” on any significance with regard to Mary (such as the Catholic church of today affords her) – and they certainly did point people to Jesus …not Mary after the crucifixion.

Again, if you look at all the important events, Mary was always there. Look harder and you will see.

Regarding my “quote” above - what part of the “gospel message” that they preached and taught with regards to the salvation of people – where was Mary brought into that message – the need of believing in the Marian dogmas? – the need of praying to her or honoring her to the extent of dedicating the “world” to her??? Could you please help me out here and indicate more specifically when these important events occurred?

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
The Apostles were never at a loss to give the people advise as to whom they could turn.
Their message is the same today as it was back then.

I already know the answer.
I posted the question for a “Catholic” perspective.

adstrinity:
The message is not the same. The Apostles had no clue before the Ressurection…except Peter…who had the ability to vocalize.

The Apostles warned the early Christians to “hold fast” to the gospel they had heard from them and not to accept “any other gospel”.

Jesus Himself, after the resurrection made sure they knew the “truth” and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost made sure they knew the “truth” and what was necessary for man’s salvation.
In what way is the message not the same today as it was then?

What and who has changed it?

Who are we to approach and turn too……Mary or Jesus?

 

[Leeann]

The question was to whom would the Apostles appeal? It was past tense. Back then, they would have had no idea. Today, if Mary says no, I think the Apostles will take their cue from Mary.

Leeann: Here is the question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, **if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, **to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

We must all pray to Mary that we are found worthy to be with Her in Heaven.

Why???
The Catholic church has taught you this???
What about being found worthy enough to be with HIM in Heaven?

Please Holy Mother of God, pray for us sinners so that we may have the strength to do your Son’s work here on Earth so that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.