Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[AshleyBelle]

Exactly justasking!

By the reasoning of the Catholic church’s own claims:

– the Catholic church is the one true “Church”
– the Pope is the Vicar of Christ

and by what is stated in the article:

– the Pope is dedicating the world to Mary

It’s not slanderous or sarcastic – it’s true.

Everything you just noted is exactly correct.:)

But your concept of what it means is far from what we believe. Do you see how it is similar to reading the scriptures? One person with a set of presuppositions can read something and come to one conclusion, and another can read the very same thing and come to another.

We have given references, scripture passages, explanations, catechism quotes, prayers, and everything else under the sun to defend our interpretation…

And in return, you’ve only provided us with the “fact” that no matter what we say, your interpretation is right.

Not just of scripture, but also of our OWN beliefs. If you want to read what the pope said and claim that he meant something we are telling you he didn’t mean, then that is your decision.

But why do you feel the need to belittle catholics for defending and adhering to our faith?

Again… why is it wrong to pray to mary so that we may grow in devotion to Christ? Why is it wrong to ask our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us?

 

[guanophore]

I have no problem defending the truth of the Lord. The difference is we defend from different sources you defend tradition, I defend the bible.

It seems clear that you have yet to understand that the NT is, itself, a product of Sacred Tradition. Where, do you imagine, the NT was spawned?

I have given you several very good reasons why the Mary worship is contrary to the bible.

You did, although none were necessary, since Catholics do not worship Mary.

I really have no hope of changing your position, but I share my faith in public all the time.

That could be because you are fighting a phantom created by your own imagination. Catholics do not worship Mary, and do not place Scripture above Tradition. You are battling demons that came from elsewhere.

Quite simply because you have no problem accepting tradition first then the bible.

Without realizing it, you (like Pilate) have given witness to the Truth. Sacred Tradition did exist before the Bible. It did not “vanish” when the scripture was written.

That is what I have been doing reading and listening to your claims.
Then I compare them with the bible. My rather long post above is just that comparing scripture with her statement about Mary. Her statements are not supported by the bible. I am sorry you dont agree with my method. I see the RC faith going beyond even (contradicting) what is written, What you teach is not found in the bible but rather your traditions.

You are absolutely correct. When the claims of the Church are compared the Bible it is easy to formulate conclusions that are not consistent. If you look at Church history, you will find that this has been the case since the second century.

No, I do not think you are a bit sorry that we do not agree with your “method”.

Of course the Catholic Church goes beyond what is written! The Catholic Church produced the entire NT., and it is 100 % reflective of what Catholics believe. The Bible is a Catholic book, written by, for, and about Catholics. The entire contents of the NT comes from Sacred Tradition, and reflects what the Catholic Church believed and taught.

We are not limited to the NT, since it is our faith that produced it. We know and affirm that the NT was never intended to be the sole basis of authority in matters of faith and morals.

Why do you chose to disregard the bible to follow tradition?

For us, it is not necessary, since we know that nothing in the NT contradicts Sacred Tradition. We know that all of the NT completely and accurately represents Sacred Tradititon.

It is because you think that you have received salvation from Peter by the secession of Popes and the euchres.

Have you been drinking, bud? This really does not make any sense at all.

Catholics believe that we are saved by grace, through faith.

That’s the very same thing the Jews believed, they believing they were decedents of Abraham that they shared in the promise.

No, I think not. If they believed in Jesus as saviour and lord, He would not have been so hard on them. He was critical of them because they searched the Scriptures daily, knowing that they testified of Him, yet they refused to come to Him, that they might find life.

If you read the gospels Jesus had a different opinion. Just as many that are born of the Spirit today dont agree with you. Nothing new under the sun, as Solomon would say.

It is ok that you do not recognize that Jesus identifies Himself totally with His Bride, the Church.

Why is it that the spirit inspired tradition of Mary contradicts the Spirit of the bible?

I do not believe He did. However, I do believe that what the HS inspired in tradition is contrary to how you understand the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

Exactly justasking!

By the reasoning of the Catholic church’s own claims:

– the Catholic church is the one true “Church”
– the Pope is the Vicar of Christ

and by what is stated in the article:

– the Pope is dedicating the world to Mary

It’s not slanderous or sarcastic – it’s true.

I agree, this is the truth. However, I will say that you make a poor alliance in justasking4. You state that you are not anti-Catholic, yet you have just aligned yourself with one of the most anti-catholic members at CAF. :bigyikes:

Your said that the Pope had no right to consecreate the world to Christ, since it was not his perogative. Why do you think not?

If Peter, in one of his letters, had done the same, would you feel the same?

 

[02bud]

I asked why is it wrong to ask mary to pray for you? Why is it wrong for our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us?

Well they booted me out but I had to reply to you so here I am as 02bud instead of bud 02.

To make this short our brothers and sisters in heaven see the big picture, they are one with Christ. Now they know as Christ knows, so how could they ever request anything more than Jesus is not all ready working out for our best interest? If you dont have faith that rest in the fact that Jesus is all knowing how could any angel or saint ever instruct him?

If you think that praying to Mary gets you something praying to Jesus cant, then you need to rethink where is Marys blessing coming from. Example If I prayed to Jesus for a new car for 1 year and never received it. Then I prayed to Mary for 1 week and got a new car, that would make me wonder??? If Jesus said Him and the Father are one, if you have seen me you have seen the Father. they are in complete agreement. And who in all heaven would try to sway their decision. thats what got Lucifer in the position he is in now.

I believe that is why no one in the bible prays to those that have left their earthly temple.

 

[guanophore]

;BSHoop964369271:

Maybe this wasn’t fair to the OP but I saw this was “another” poster who doesn’t understand the Catholic Church and so does not understand the Church and Mary. I usually just say “everything/everyone points to Christ” and leave it at that because usually they will argue any point. But in skimming I saw this and I LIKE IT!

Thank you BSHoop96!

 

[AshleyBelle]

Well they booted me out but I had to reply to you so here I am as 02bud instead of bud 02.

To make this short our brothers and sisters in heaven see the big picture, they are one with Christ. Now they know as Christ knows, so how could they ever request anything more than Jesus is not all ready working out for our best interest? If you dont have faith that rest in the fact that Jesus is all knowing how could any angel or saint ever instruct him?

If you think that praying to Mary gets you something praying to Jesus cant, then you need to rethink where is Marys blessing coming from. Example If I prayed to Jesus for a new car for 1 year and never received it. Then I prayed to Mary for 1 week and got a new car, that would make me wonder??? If Jesus said Him and the Father are one, if you have seen me you have seen the Father. they are in complete agreement. And who in all heaven would try to sway their decision. thats what got Lucifer in the position he is in now.

I believe that is why no one in the bible prays to those that have left their earthly temple.

Thank you for actually explaining your viewpoint with at least fewer accusations than normal thrown in!

I would like to clarify what I feel you are misunderstanding about our belief though

We don’t pray to the saints because we want “more” from Jesus than He can give. We don’t pray to mary because we feel she has more “power” than Christ. We don’t pray to “get” anything…

We pray with the saints in heaven and Mary, because Christ taught us all Christians are part of His body… all Christians in heaven and on earth. We pray for them to HELP in our prayers to Christ…

“The prayer of a righteous man availeth much”

Sometimes we are humbled by the fact that we have big requests, and we are so very little…how could we possibly ask for ANYTHING of our Lord who died and gave his LIFE for us?

So…in protestant circles, you turn to your local church. You ask that your “prayer intention” be put on a list, or a prayer chain, and you ask your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for you.
Not because you dont’ think jesus loves you, or that they have a special “power” over Him… but because you are all a part of the FAMILY of God. You all “build one another up in charity” as the Bible asks… and most importantly, you SHARE your love for one another.

This is how we relate to the saints in heaven, and Christ’s mother, whom he designated (in the BIBLE) as our mother We share our sufferings, our joys, and prayers, all united, THROUGH Christ!

And though the saints in heaven are now sharing in perfect communion with Christ, and are restored to their full glory with Him… Do you think that they stop caring about the rest of the body of Christ? Do you think they stop caring or loving their brothers and sisters who are still striving for heaven?

Now that you have read this.. (I hope you've read it)  do you understand how what we ACTUALLY believe, is different from your notion of what you THOUGHT we believe?

WIth these things in mind… can you still give me a reason that it would be WRONG to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us? Or to pray to Mary so that we may grow in devotion to Christ?

 

[guanophore]

Sleep well bud02 and God Bless!

You have chosen poorly.

 

[guanophore]

There’s no more sacerdotal system; read Hebrews.

Well…we read it differently.

We see that the new priesthood is after the order of Melchizedech.

The early church went off the rails early, thinking that it replaced Israel.

Please provide early church documents that affirm this assertion.

The “leadership” pretty much shunned the early Jewish Christians, and set out on their own—

Please show early church documents that can verify this claim.

sounds eerily like the reformation; guess there’s a bit of protestant in us all—and, in setting out on their own, they modeled the NT church after the OT sacrificial system under the guise of sacraments, and sacerdotalism, complete with a sacrifice, works, etc.

It seems to me that even common sense would tell you that this is not the case. If they wanted to jettison the Jews, why on God’s green earth would they substitute anything that looked or acted similarly?

Here’s a book about it: Israel and the Church, the Origin and Effects of Replacement Theology

This is an erroneous doctrine of dispensational reformed theology, concocted in the last 150 years confined to America. :bigyikes:

Only if you believe in a papacy.

Do you not see Christ giving anything to Peter He did not give to others?

You say Christ ”Built His Church,” that’s wrong.

Christ’s church is still in the process of being built, the building isn’t finished.

I agree :bigyikes:

He is still building. But you avoid the point. He spoke as though He would complete HIs work…“upon this Rock, I will build my church”…

Why do you criticize an ecclesiology of a governmental construct of human invention, when that’s what you, yourself, have in your church, a governmental construct of human invention?

I believe you must consider it this way to justifiy disobedience.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I agree, this is the truth. However, I will say that you make a poor alliance in justasking4. You state that you are not anti-Catholic, yet you have just aligned yourself with one of the most anti-catholic members at CAF. :bigyikes:

JustAsking4 is anticatholic? I have been reading and They seem like they help our religion more than hurt it! Leeann seems really angry. Neither one listens to anything said. But at least JA4 is funnier. He has over 6,000 postings using only 20 questions I heard! WOW! That is awesome! It must be a record of some kind? Let’s take up a collection and send him on a long trip somewhere!

Your said that the Pope had no right to consecreate the world to Christ, since it was not his perogative. Why do you think not?

She might not realize that Jesus left the church in charge of His Body until he returns.

If Peter, in one of his letters, had done the same, would you feel the same?

There you go again, guan. Sigh, trying to use Logic! When has that ever worked?

 

[mercygate]

Of course the text doesn’t mention Rome or the successor to Peter’s role as chief pastor.

It does firmly establish in Scripture the Primacy of Peter, among the ministers of God. This is NT ecclesiology which points to sacerdotal unity within the NT Church, having a chief pastor of the universal Church, Peter.

This Scriptural fact begs the question: Shouldn’t today’s Church also have ONE chief pastor of the universal Church, as was the case in NT times? If this is how Christ built his Church, according to Scripture, shouldn’t the continuation of this Church built by Christ and present in the world today also be led by ONE chief pastor, the historic successor of the pastorship of Peter, the sign of sacerdotal unity established by Christ?

As history shows, that’s precisely what the men of the 1st and 2nd century, who were taught by the apostels themselves believed. These early Church Fathers believed that the ecclesiology established by Christ was intended to continue, in Peter’s successor. Consequently, Linus was the chief pastor after the martyrdom of Peter in Rome. After Linus, was Cletus, after Cletus was Clement, etc. After Peter’s matrydom in Rome, the Christian faithful elected the successor to Peter’s pastoral office from among the elders of the Church, and this successorship continued from the 1st century to this day as a Petrine office with honor and jurisdiction in the Church universal.

Petrine Primacy is NT fact, which even Protestant bible scholars admit. What they don’t want to admit is that this Petrine Primacy continues today. For some reason, they want dismiss NT ecclesiology for a governmental construct of human invention, rejected what was established by Scripture by claiming there is no longer a chief pastor of the universal Church as there was in NT times.

As alwalys, Dave, a clear and well-articulated position. One of the texts that tends to get lost in the “Peter” discussion is Luke 22:32, where Our Lord says to Peter: “but I haveprayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

 

[mercygate]

I’m not sure if Bud does embody and express all the same views I have – haven’t been able to read all the postings – however it is an open place for everyone to come into –and can’t see why Bud shouldn’t be here?

Bud’s comments have been off topic on this thread and have derailed the train of thought which you are formidably maintaining here.

Hope you feel better.

 

[mercygate]

She was human and it’s afforded to each of us to die once.

But what about Elijah?

Jesus and His Apostles never quoted from Maccabees.There are fifteen books of the Hebrew canon which are not quoted in the New Testament: Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Lamentations, Obadiah, Nahum, and Zephaniah.

 

[Leeann]

**itsjustdave:**For some reason, they want dismiss NT ecclesiology for a governmental construct of human invention, rejected what was established by Scripture by claiming there is no longer a chief pastor of the universal Church as there was in NT times.

Hebrews Chapter 4 (the whole thing)

But there is still a chief pastor of the universal church that Jesus and His Apostles established - it’s HIM!

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached,as well as unto them:** but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.**

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

15 **For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.**

 

[mercygate]

No – the Pope was “praying”, well actually leading the prayer.

“The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.*

"We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart," the text of the prayer reads.*

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: "If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn."

Leeann, before you go any further with this you really NEED to look at the Pope’s first published book after his election to the papacy – Jesus of Nazareth. You are focusing on a thing that is part of a unified whole and is n no way separate from the Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Leeann]

Bud’s comments have been off topic on this thread and have derailed the train of thought which you are formidably maintaining here.

Hope you feel better.

I’ve been trying to get on and go back and read and noticed that it does get off topic - but Bud isn’t the only one - there are a lot of personal comments and queries that are not related to the thread topic at all - but that happens I think in most threads - one question will lead off to another and another - so at one point I posted the 'topic question’again to try and bring it back.

However, LOTS of good posts with good discussion and information - back and forth by everyone participating.

Feeling not too good…but this too shall pass…eventually…:sad_yes:

 

[guanophore]

As alwalys, Dave, a clear and well-articulated position. One of the texts that tends to get lost in the “Peter” discussion is Luke 22:32, where Our Lord says to Peter: “but I haveprayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

It is also instructive to note that Jesus tells them all (plural) that satan will sift them, but He only prays for Peter (singular). That is one reason we believe that those who want to stay strong in the faith better be included with Peter!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Leeann,

If we could not turn to Mary, of course we could turn to Jesus. But all Mary can do is point us to Jesus. It’s just implied to Catholics that when we turn to Mary, she’s telling us to “do whatever He tells you” as she did at the wedding at Cana.

You’re taking it too literally I think. That prayer is very poetic and moving and you shouldn’t worry that it says we can’t go to Jesus. It’s not the intention at all.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Good morning Leeann I hope you’re feeling a little better! My bug is still hanging on, but I think my little ones are starting to get over theirs at least!

Thank you for posting this passage! But maybe you can help me… I don’t understand what you are trying to say with it exactly. We also believe Jesus is the “Chief Pastor” as you put it, of His church. The pope is not the “high priest” in the sense that our Lord is… .In fact “vicar of Christ” means about the same thing as “servant” of Christ. The pope is not an authority of his own, he is a servant, left to tend the flock on earth, because Christ appointed him to do this!

By your interpretation of this passage, why do we need pastors or priests of any kind?

I like to keep this passage in mind from John, 21

"Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. Feed my sheep… "

Christ wasn’t speaking to the multitude of people here…He was speaking directly to His apostles. We know that Christ is indeed “the good shepherd.” And we know that He is the “High Priest.” But He also very clearly left His apostles with the task of tending His flock until His return

Hebrews Chapter 4 (the whole thing)

But there is still a chief pastor of the universal church that Jesus and His Apostles established - it’s HIM!

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached,as well as unto them:** but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.**

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

15 **For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.**

 

[guanophore]

Hebrews Chapter 4 (the whole thing)

But there is still a chief pastor of the universal church that Jesus and His Apostles established - it’s HIM!

Yes, of course! Jesus sharing His pastoring ministry with His servants here on earth takes nothing away from Him.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

You’re wrong, Dave.

Presbeuteros in both the Gospels and epistles is translated Elder,

Elder and priest are both what “presbyter” means. You might not like the fact that the English word “priest” derives from the word *presbyter, *but your lack of assent doesn’t change this fact. According to Merriam-Webster:priest Pronunciation: \ˈprēst\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English preist, from Old English prēost, ultimately from Late Latin presbyter — more at presbyter.

pres·by·terPronunciation: \ˈprez-bə-tər, ˈpres-\ Function: noun Etymology: Late Latin, elder, **priest, from Greek presbyteros, **

There’s no NT priesthood such as you have in your church.

Suffice it to say, I don’t consider you an authority on the matter. You reject the “old standard” of Christian belief. Yet, even Protestant scholars understand that the NT speaks of a ministerial *presbyteros *having a distinct role from that of all believers. What you don’t seem to like is that the evidence of history in every century since the advent of Christ has held fast to the “old standard,”, while you cling to a novel departure from that old standard. C.H. Spurgeon got many things wrong, but he got this right:

“… we cannot leave the old standard so long as we see it to be the very standard which floated in the hand of Paul, and which was handed by him through divers generations, through Chrysostom to Augustine…” (CH Spurgeon, War, War, War, Sermon 250, May 1st, 1859]

And there are others who say that prior to 300 ad there’s no certainty.

Cite all the antagonists against the “old standard” you wish. I cited a 2nd century source as well as a non-Catholic source.

Irenaeus attributes the initial appointment to "the apostles," and not specifically to Peter, and that’s not a quibble, but is significant in that Linus is not said to be Peter’s successor.

Yes, it is a quibble, as the Church of Rome was everywhere known as the “See of Peter,” as documented in the writings of the early Church fathers and early councils.

“Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter” (*The Little Labyrinth *[A.D. 211], in Eusebius, *Church History *5:28:3).

The Gospel was rediscovered and recovered in the 16th century; that’s all I care about.

Rediscovered by whom?

The father of Protestantism, Martin Luther wrote:

“We are compelled to concede to the papists that they have the Word of God; that we received it from them, and that without them we should have had no knowledge of it at all.”

In fact, Luther would later lament…

Since the downfall of Popery and the cessation of excommunications and spiritual penalties, the people have learned to despise the word of God. They no longer care for the churches; they have ceased to fear and honor God…After throwing off the yoke of the Pope, everyone wishes to live as he pleases. [They say] ‘we will spend the day like Lutherans. Drunkenness has come upon us like a deluge.’ If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to teach the gospel." (WL 6, 920)

“I confess… that I am more negligent than I was under the Pope and there is now nowhere such an amount of earnestness under the Gospel, as was fomerly seen among monks and priests.” (WL 9. 1311)