Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Non_Serviam]

I’m tight on time before heading out for the weekend, but guanophore did include a bit of possible proof in with his other comments, so I’m going to make a few minutes to respond before I leave.

1. The Liturgy of St. James does indeed contain references to asking the dead for prayers. It also is found only in copies made hundreds of years after St. James lived.

The copies show variation in wording as later scribes “improved” some of the original language referring to the Trinity and Mary in order to have it line up with the theological formulations of the day. Many of these changes were authorized by councils and bishops, just as liturgical changes occur today.

What this means is that the current texts of the Liturgy don’t necessarily reflect its original form. Without an early copy of it or references from early writers, it offer some proof, more than had been advanced before this, but the preponderance of evidence still supports the thesis I put forth.

1. The unity of Mary, the dead saints and Jesus-while there are clear references in Scripture to the church being the Body of Christ, I am also quite certain that there are one or more senses in which you still believe Mary and the Saints to possess distinct identities from Jesus.

The most obvious proof of this is the careful insistence that things done to dead saints are only honour or adoration, not worship. If there was indeed absolutely no separation between Jesus and the dead saints, then they would be entitled to worship. Since you agree that they aren’t entitled to it, you accept at least one distinction between them and Jesus.

Given at least one distinction, it is indeed possible to point to Jesus or Mary with no false dichotomy at all. So hopefully this is the last we’ll see of that argument. There are actually several differences between Jesus and dead saints and these form the context for Leeann’s question.

1. The whole question of “faith”, “proof” and the “rightness” of the Catholic church: I can’t say I’m impressed with how the Catholic faith is sometimes presented here.

When there is a quote that proves or appears to prove a Catholic dogma, great attention is shown to the “proof” and how “provable” the faith is. When such proof is limited or lacking, appeals to the authority of the Church or faith or mystery start to surface. Memories of three card monte games I’ve seen start to come to mind.

The OP asked a question about the Apostles. I put forward a thesis with proof supporting that thesis. Catholics have criticized the question, begged the question with special pleading, made appeals to authority, ad hominem arguments and offered a number of red herrings in an attempt to cover up the lack of verifiable evidence for their assertion about the Apostles-an assertion not made by other Catholic authorities, who accept the doctrine of communion of saints but don’t argue that it began with the Apostles.

Baptism, Real Presence, Inspiration of Scripture, the Divinity of Christ can all be traced back to the Apostles through sources both internal and external to Scripture. Baptism of Blood, Transubstantiation, the Canon and the Chalcedonian formula can’t be traced back to the Apostles and yet Catholics accept them all based on development of doctrine.

Why you insist on a self-imposed infallibility in this instance is beyond me-you assert something that the Catechism doesn’t-that the Apostles prayed this way. I’m hoping that continuing the discussion will make it clearer why “because the Church says so” isn’t sufficient for may non-Catholics and that attempting to show proof where this is little or none, doesn’t buttress your position.

With that, I wish everyone a great weekend and I hope to see you fresh and full of answers next week.

 

[Leeann]

Originally posted by Leeann:
Apparently it is evident that there are some that do “over-admire” creation, they may even get “lost” in that admiration by placing “too much emphasis” on the “created” and not the “Creator”.

Tantum ergo:
It isn’t evident to me. if you’re using the Pope’s prayer as an example of the above assertion, I do not think that he ‘over-admires’ Mary OR that he isn’t placing’ enough emphasis on the creator.
Well in my quote you posted above, it does say that “it is evident that there are some” …
but yes ……I believe the Pope is included in the “some” as evidenced by the prayer offered in the topic question.
So who is right, me or you….
Who is right about what….how they perceive the Pope’s actions?
–and why?
They are opinions being stated…and you are as entitled to yours as I am mine.

 

[guanophore]

It is beautifully evident when Mary says that, but that doesn’t mean that she is the only creation of His that is capable of doing so and it definitely has nothing to do with whom we are to turn too as our “source” of mercy, consolation or help when we are in need of those things.

Oh, I disagree! I think it has everything to do with it. When Mary says “my soul magnifies the Lord”, she is setting us an example of where to turn. Her whole being is focused upon Him, and magnifies Him. Note, this does not restrict her from sharing her joy with her cousin Elizabeth. Sharing it with Elizabeth did not mean she magnified God less.

Neither does communing with God in prayer in the presence of a beautiful sunset subtract from either one. One need not chose one or the other. One can be in the presence of the sunset, yet focused on God. One can ask Mary for her prayers also to God. Without subtracting from God.

 

[guanophore]

He’s “lost” his focus in spending too much time in “admiration” and by putting too much “emphasis” on the “created”.

I can see you believe this from reading the prayer, and I understand how you draw this conclusion, especially having personally known people in your life that seem to idolize Mary. However, I think this is an errant judgement about this Pope.

to whom the Apostles would point the Pope too…Mary or Jesus

The Apostles point to Jesus. Mary points to Jesus. The Catholic Church points to Jesus. If someone looks to an Apostle, he points to Jesus.

Apparently it is evident that there are some that do “over-admire” creation, they may even get “lost” in that admiration by placing “too much emphasis” on the “created” and not the “Creator”.

I am sure this is possible. However, the Pope is not one of them.

 

[AshleyBelle]

For Leeann and other posters who have expressed concern about the focus of Catholic marian devotion, have you thought about asking Mary to show you what it’s all about?

Don’t worry about offending Jesus because you aren’t praying “directly” to Him, but rather asking for the intercession of His mother. If that worry is in your heart, then say a prayer before hand…And then I encourage you to pick up a rosaray, or even use your ten fingers to represent each bead…And just ask Mary to “show unto us, the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus.” You may just be amazed at how God can use this beautiful devotion to bless your relationship with Him.

There are some great guides here and on the web that will walk you through each of the mysteries of the rosary, the prayers, and the devotions behind them. It truly does walk you through the gospel

It’s easy to debate and argue about marian devotion. Personally I am quick to “defend mom” when it comes to subjects such as this… But think the best thing anyone can do, is to ask Mary how she feels about it.

You might just get an answer

 

[guanophore]

1. The Liturgy of St. James does indeed contain references to asking the dead for prayers.

No, it does not. Catholics only ask for prayer from those we believe are alive in heaven with Christ.

show variation in wording as later scribes "improved" some of the original language referring to the Trinity and Mary in order to have it line up with the theological formulations of the day. Many of these changes were authorized by councils and bishops, just as liturgical changes occur today.

None of the additions departed from the Apostolic teaching. The changes were made to clarify the Apostolic teaching, such as the Trinity. The Apostles did not use that word,b ut that was their teaching.

What this means is that the current texts of the Liturgy don’t necessarily reflect its original form.

They reflect the faith of the Apostles, that was delivered to the Church. As my Latin brethren are fond of saying “Lex Orendi Lex Credendi” ( as we pray, so we believe). This is why the prayers are so critical in understanding the faith of the Church.

offer some proof

We apprehend the Apostolic faith by recieving what has been preserved in the Church by the mighty spirit of God, who Jesus promised would guide into all truth. This is a matter of trust, not of science.

1. The unity of Mary, the dead saints and Jesus-while there are clear references in Scripture to the church being the Body of Christ, I am also quite certain that there are one or more senses in which you still believe Mary and the Saints to possess distinct identities from Jesus.

Yes, of course. The fact that we have been made partakers of His divine nature does not make us divine, or less human. The saints are perfectly united to Him for eternity in Spirit, and at the resurrection, will have resurrected bodies. Communion is about unity among individuals, not a diffusion of identity.
T

he most obvious proof of this is the careful insistence that things done to dead saints are only honour or adoration, not worship.

No, actually, it is the insistence that the saints are not dead.

If there was indeed absolutely no separation between Jesus and the dead saints, then they would be entitled to worship. Since you agree that they aren’t entitled to it, you accept at least one distinction between them and Jesus.

We ask individuals for their prayers. It does not make them less persons.

Given at least one distinction, it is indeed possible to point to Jesus or Mary with no false dichotomy at all.

This might be true, except for the nature of Mary. Her soul magnifies the Lord, so anyone who points to her will find her pointing to him.

So hopefully this is the last we’ll see of that argument. There are actually several differences between Jesus and dead saints and these form the context for Leeann’s question.

I should think so. I do not believe that there is such a thing as a “dead” saint. If they are a saint, then they are alive in heaven with Christ. If they are “dead”, then they are in hell, and not a saint.

1. The whole question of “faith”, “proof” and the “rightness” of the Catholic church: I can’t say I’m impressed with how the Catholic faith is sometimes presented here.

I can;'t disagree on that point!

 

[guanophore]

When there is a quote that proves or appears to prove a Catholic dogma, great attention is shown to the “proof” and how “provable” the faith is.

Well, I personally don’t go in for such things. I think that the scripture reflects the Catholic faith, but it is not a “science” subject to proofs, or designed for “proofs” .

When such proof is limited or lacking, appeals to the authority of the Church or faith or mystery start to surface. Memories of three card monte games I’ve seen start to come to mind.

Well, it may seem that way to you. I do agree that this all boils down to the mysteries, and the authority of the Church.

The OP asked a question about the Apostles. I put forward a thesis with proof supporting that thesis. Catholics have criticized the question, begged the question with special pleading, made appeals to authority, ad hominem arguments and offered a number of red herrings in an attempt to cover up the lack of verifiable evidence for their assertion about the Apostles-an assertion not made by other Catholic authorities, who accept the doctrine of communion of saints but don’t argue that it began with the Apostles.

The OP contains a false dichotomy, and the Apostles believed in the communion of saints. The apostles believed that to leave this earth was to be present with the lord. They beleived those who are in Christ are “alive forevermore”.

Baptism, Real Presence, Inspiration of Scripture, the Divinity of Christ can all be traced back to the Apostles through sources both internal and external to Scripture. Baptism of Blood, Transubstantiation, the Canon and the Chalcedonian formula can’t be traced back to the Apostles and yet Catholics accept them all based on development of doctrine.

Yes.

Why you insist on a self-imposed infallibility in this instance is beyond me-you assert something that the Catechism doesn’t-that the Apostles prayed this way. I’m hoping that continuing the discussion will make it clearer why “because the Church says so” isn’t sufficient for may non-Catholics and that attempting to show proof where this is little or none, doesn’t buttress your position.

I don’t need any butressing, or any of your “proofs”. I know that the Apostles believed in the communion of saints. This is the faith that has been passed on to us, guarded and guided by Christ.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ah, but LeeAnn, the Pope says that he worships God, not Mary. The Catholic Church teaches that we worship God, not Mary.

So you’re basically setting yourself up as the judge who says, “No matter what the Catholic Church says it teaches about Mary not being worshipped, I, LeeAnn, say the Pope of the Catholic Church is among who according to me, LeeAnn, go and focus too much on Mary **instead of God”

**All right, what if (this is speculative here, ok?)

**What if I were to say to you, LeeAnn, and to Non Serviam, etc.

I say that you Protestants don’t worship God… No matter what you say to us, no matter what posts you make of your heartfelt love for God, I say that you don’t worship God. You worship the Bible, not God. You focus too much on the Bible and not on God. And I’ll continue saying it because I ‘know’ this is true.

Protestants don’t worship God.

Because you see, I can see your hearts and I know that when you’re praying to God, even though you SAY you’re worshipping Him, you really aren’t. You’re really worshipping the Bible because you have made it ‘equal’ to God, even ‘above’ God. I know this. Every post you make just shows how much you focus on the BIBLE. You’re not worshipping God.**

Hmmm, I wonder what the reaction would be?

And would the apostles point to Jesus or to the Bible?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
It is beautifully evident when Mary says that, but that doesn’t mean that she is the only creation of His that is capable of doing so and it definitely has nothing to do with whom we are to turn too as our “source” of mercy, consolation or help when we are in need of those things.

guanophore:
Oh, I disagree! I think it has everything to do with it. When Mary says “my soul magnifies the Lord”, she is setting us an example of where to turn. Her whole being is focused upon Him, and magnifies Him. Note, this does not restrict her from sharing her joy with her cousin Elizabeth. Sharing it with Elizabeth did not mean she magnified God less.

Neither does communing with God in prayer in the presence of a beautiful sunset subtract from either one. One need not chose one or the other.

One does need to choose **one or the **other when it comes to “prayer”…unless you believe that you can go through the “sunset” in prayer to God, or ask the “sunset” to offer prayers also.

You are praying **to God **while you are in the presence of the beautiful sunset.

guanophore:
One can be in the presence of the sunset, yet focused on God.

Of course, I agree…and when we are **focused on God **we pray to Him.
As the Apostles encouraged and taught the early believers to do.

guanophore:
One can ask Mary for her prayers also to God. Without subtracting from God.

Really? From your own scenario above about the sunset and being in its presence…ask yourself the same question as below…

Can one ask the sunset for it’s prayers also to God without subtracting from God…

It is not the same thing at all.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo:

Ah, but LeeAnn, the Pope says that he worships God, not Mary. The Catholic Church teaches that we worship God, not Mary.

So you’re basically setting yourself up as the judge who says, “No matter what the Catholic Church says it teaches about Mary not being worshipped, I, LeeAnn, say the Pope of the Catholic Church is among who according to me, LeeAnn, go and focus too much on Mary instead of God”.

That’s exactly what I’ve said in my posts.
It’s good to see that you’ve been paying attention.

Tantum ergo:
All right, what if (this is speculative here, ok? )

(Note: the original portion below was in really,really,big,dark letters
which means one of two things…either Tantum is loosing it…or he/she’s in need of attention…but I just made them the “normal” size to save room )

What if I were to say to you, LeeAnn, and to Non Serviam, etc.

I say that you Protestants don’t worship God… No matter what you say to us, no matter what posts you make of your heartfelt love for God, I say that you don’t worship God. You worship the Bible, not God. You focus too much on the Bible and not on God. And I’ll continue saying it because I ‘know’ this is true.

Protestants don’t worship God.

Because you see, I can see your hearts and I know that when you’re praying to God, even though you SAY you’re worshipping Him, you really aren’t. You’re really worshipping the Bible because you have made it ‘equal’ to God, even ‘above’ God. I know this. Every post you make just shows how much you focus on the BIBLE. You’re not worshipping God.

Hmmm, I wonder what the reaction would be?

And would the apostles point to Jesus or to the Bible?

Why don’t you open another “thread” on that as your post here does not attempt to answer the question of this one.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

From LeeAnn --and note that, as usual, it is phrased in the form of an ‘either/or’ scenario.

Note: the original portion below was in really,really,big,dark letters
which means one of two things…either Tantum is loosing it…or he/she’s in need of attention…but I just made them the “normal” size to save room )

Or she (meaning me) simply used the size* 4 font (the sizes go all the way up to 7 *so it was hardly ‘really really big’, and ‘bold’ is simply bold) and bold letters to make it very clear that this was a ‘speculative post’ and not a personal attack on any given poster.

You see what happens, LeeAnn, when you make a false dichotomy?

You said that I made the letters bold because I was 'either" losing it or needed attention. One of two choices, I believe that was the phrase you used. Not ‘two of several’, or ‘two possible choices’.

As if these were the only two choices. . .had to be one or the other, couldn’t be anything else.

It just points out how mistaken a person can be, doesn’t it?

 

[Leeann]

From LeeAnn --and note that, as usual, it is phrased in the form of an ‘either/or’ scenario.

Or she (meaning me) simply used the size* 4 font (the sizes go all the way up to 7 *so it was hardly ‘really really big’, and ‘bold’ is simply bold) and bold letters to make it very clear that this was a ‘speculative post’ and not a personal attack on any given poster.

You see what happens, LeeAnn, when you make a false dichotomy?

You said that I made the letters bold because I was 'either" losing it or needed attention. One of two choices, I believe that was the phrase you used. Not ‘two of several’, or ‘two possible choices’.

As if these were the only two choices. . .had to be one or the other, couldn’t be anything else.

It just points out how mistaken a person can be, doesn’t it?

Are you now talking about “false dichtomies” and the “correct” or “incorrect” use of them…oh-oh…better put a third option in there…uhm…or “totally not applicable to this thread as that is your opinion and other Catholic posters have already disagreed with you on this”…

Or is the issue not enough "choices"as you seem to indicate above. If it is, and in relation to this thread, I didn’t realize that the Pope believes that there are others that he could **also **be praying too that have the same “abilities” that he affords to Mary here…other than Jesus, so I only mentioned Jesus. Are there others that you could recommend to be added?

*“We implore you to have pity *today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If **you **will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **
Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus ?

 

[guanophore]

One does need to choose **one or the **other when it comes to “prayer”…unless you believe that you can go through the “sunset” in prayer to God, or ask the “sunset” to offer prayers also.

I understand what you mean, but I think you we may be using the word “prayer” differently. Catholics also generally recognize many more varieties of prayer than Protestants. If I am sitting on my roof watching a gorgeous sunset, I may not converse with God. I have learned to accept such things -sunsets, rainbows , falling stars, etc, as little love notes from God - reminders that he loves us enough to create a beautiful universe in which we can serve Him. As I contemplate that sunset, I am acutely aware of His gift in creation, and the love it demonstrates. I am present with myself, the sunset, and God. I am not worshipping the sunset.
Leeann;4710136:

You

are praying **to God **while you are in the presence of the beautiful sunset.

I would not consider this a manner of “praying to”, though I am not sure what you mean by that. It is not directed. I am not asking anything, or expressing anything but my felt gratitude.
It lacks words.

Of course, I agree…and when we are **focused on God **

we pray to Him

This is probably where the difference is. Catholics don’t believe that focusing on God excludes others. We also dont believe that all focus upon God is “praying to” in the sense that we are directing language, supplication or something. One of the highest forms of prayer, contemplation, is just being together. This does not exclude others present.

A whole group or community can contemplate together. Silence, awareness, being. No talking. Together, yet focused upon the Holy.

 As the Apostles encouraged and taught the early believers to do.

Most of what we read in Acts is active prayer, such as intercession, spiritual warfare, and supplication. I would say that Peter was in contemplation when he received the vision about Cornelius. This is an entirely different form of prayer than “praying to”. Peter was receptive, and the Spirit burst in upon his consciousness with an other worldly message.

Really? From your own scenario above about the sunset and being in its presence...ask yourself the same question as below....

Can one ask the sunset for it’s prayers also to God without subtracting from God…

Yes, one can ask creation to praise God. David does this in the Psalms. But since created things in the world are not persons, then they best reflect the glory of God being what they are. Jesus said that God could make the stones worship Him.

It is not the same thing at all.

I agree with your premise. However, when David commands the moon and stars to praise God, I do not think it subtracts from God.

Even so, perhaps you get my point that one can be in the presence of God, and others be present, and those others present do not subtract from God. Asking them for their prayers, or inviting them to worship together with you does not subtract from God.

 

[guanophore]

*“We implore you to have pity *today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If **you **will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **

There is a deeper context here. The previous Pope had already consecrated the entire region to Mary. He asked that she take this part of the world under her protection and intercession.

It is just like what happened with Simon and Peter:

Acts 8:18-24
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me also this power so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain God’s gift with money! 21 You have no part or share in this, for your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and the chains of wickedness.” 24 Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may happen to me.”

Simon wants the power he sees flowing forth. Peter pronounces a curse over him. Because the curse came from Peter, only Peter has the authority to retract it. Remember, Jesus told them “whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, if you retain them, they are retained”. This is an example of Simon pleading with Peter to intercede for him, so that the curse will not effect itself.

The record does not show if Peter did this. I always imagine that he did, if Simon was sincere in his repentance.

I think part of the problem that some people have with this much authority being given to humans is that they don’t really believe that God does this. We can see that He did this with Abraham, and Moses, and some other figures in scripture, but we don’t seem to really believe He meant what He said about “greater things than I do will you do, because I go to the father”.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As guanophore has endeavored with much patience to point out to LeeAnn and others, prayer to Mary (or any other saint) does not deprive Jesus of prayer, as though by asking Mary’s prayers to be joined TO ours we are somehow bypassing Christ in favor of Mary.

There is not some finite limited amount of ‘prayer material’ in each person’s soul which is to be given to “God alone” and, if offered in concert with a living (on earth) or a living (in heaven) person somehow winds up ‘tainted’ and attached to that person instead of to Jesus.

As I have said before in that prayer (which LeeAnn persistently ‘truncates’ in that she never finishes the rest of the article which puts it in context) the Pope is not saying, “Oh Mary, the world is in trouble and if you don’t help us we have nowhere else to turn–because we aren’t even THINKING of Jesus”.

Why do you think we look to Mary anyway? As the Mother of Jesus, her prayers are very powerful. If she is praying with us, then (as Scripture tells us) we have the prayers of a very righteous person united to ours, don’t we?

So if Mary is praying with us, we have Jesus’ own dear Mother ‘on our side’ and helping us pray to Him. Isn’t that a good thing?

If Mary isn’t praying with us, then a source of great righteousness and powerful prayer is not joined with us. Where can we turn, then, to find another such righteous person to pray with us to God?

Do you have any candidates in mind whom you personally think are righteous and holy enough that they are ‘greater’ to ask help from in praying to God, than Mary?

 

[benedictus2]

What if I were to say to you, LeeAnn, and to Non Serviam, etc.

**I say that you Protestants don’t worship God… No matter what you say to us, no matter what posts you make of your heartfelt love for God, I say that you don’t worship God. You worship the Bible, not God. You focus too much on the Bible and not on God. **

---

Yes, bibliolatry.

 

[Leeann]

I understand what you mean, but I think you we may be using the word “prayer” differently. Catholics also generally recognize many more varieties of prayer than Protestants. If I am sitting on my roof watching a gorgeous sunset, I may not converse with God. I have learned to accept such things -sunsets, rainbows , falling stars, etc, as little love notes from God - reminders that he loves us enough to create a beautiful universe in which we can serve Him. As I contemplate that sunset, I am acutely aware of His gift in creation, and the love it demonstrates. I am present with myself, the sunset, and God. I am not worshipping the sunset.

I would not consider this a manner of “praying to”, though I am not sure what you mean by that. It is not directed. I am not asking anything, or expressing anything but my felt gratitude.
It lacks words.

This is probably where the difference is. Catholics don’t believe that focusing on God excludes others. We also dont believe that all focus upon God is “praying to” in the sense that we are directing language, supplication or something. One of the highest forms of prayer, contemplation, is just being together. This does not exclude others present.

A whole group or community can contemplate together. Silence, awareness, being. No talking. Together, yet focused upon the Holy.

Most of what we read in Acts is active prayer, such as intercession, spiritual warfare, and supplication. I would say that Peter was in contemplation when he received the vision about Cornelius. This is an entirely different form of prayer than “praying to”. Peter was receptive, and the Spirit burst in upon his consciousness with an other worldly message.

Yes, one can ask creation to praise God. David does this in the Psalms. But since created things in the world are not persons, then they best reflect the glory of God being what they are. Jesus said that God could make the stones worship Him.

I agree with your premise. However, when David commands the moon and stars to praise God, I do not think it subtracts from God.

Even so, perhaps you get my point that one can be in the presence of God, and others be present, and those others present do not subtract from God. Asking them for their prayers, or inviting them to worship together with you does not subtract from God.
Thank you for taking the time to post guanophore and I do understand what you are saying.
I think you might be surprised to know that many Non-Catholics are aware of meditative/contemplative prayer and practice it themselves, both collectively and in private and have done so for many years.

Having said that….the correlation that you attempt to make by the use of the “sunset/ contemplative prayer” scenario and that of “asking Mary for her prayers also” simply does not
“gel”. You are comparing two separate things completely and it has nothing to do with “understanding the Catholic meaning of “prayer”. You yourself point out a difference above in your responses.

While this may in some way satisfy your understanding as to why the Pope would turn to Mary in prayer….how does it apply to the Pope not knowing where to turn too…except to Mary?

 

[ufamtobie]

Thank you for taking the time to post guanophore and I do understand what you are saying.
I think you might be surprised to know that many Non-Catholics are aware of meditative/contemplative prayer and practice it themselves, both collectively and in private and have done so for many years.

Having said that….the correlation that you attempt to make by the use of the “sunset/ contemplative prayer” scenario and that of “asking Mary for her prayers also” simply does not
“gel”. You are comparing two separate things completely and it has nothing to do with “understanding the Catholic meaning of “prayer”. You yourself point out a difference above in your responses.

While this may in some way satisfy your understanding as to why the Pope would turn to Mary in prayer….how does it apply to the Pope not knowing where to turn too…except to Mary?

Hi Leeann,

Jesus TURNED to Virgin Mary on the Cross TO FULL FILL his LAST COMMANDMENT TO US ALL While He was yet Alive: You can find this in the below Bible verse:

(John 19: 26-28) Seeing his Mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said said to His Mother, “Woman, there is your son.” In turn he said to the disciple, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.” From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care.

Again, I can’t stess it enough! Jesus Christ Last Commandment to us all while He was yet Alive on the Cross “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER”

Leeann, You can’t Ignor the FACT that Jesus Christ also TURNED to His Mother, and asked of her: “WOMAN, THERE IS YOUR SON.”

Leeann, Jesus Christ turned to his Mother while he was on the Cross, This means we can also TURN to Virgin Mary! After all did not Jesus Christ say that we must be Like Him in all things?

Leeann, What about “The Rich Man and Lazarus”? (Luke 16: 24-26)

Did not the Rich Man TURNED/PRAYED to Abraham? …

Leeann, why didn’t the Rich man TURN/PRAY Only to God?

Leeann, This Rich Man is in Hell, and He has more sense than YOU?

The Rich Man Turned/'Prayer was heard by Abraham and perhaps answered for a Man by the Name of Lazarus did come back from the Grave:thumbsup:

Why didn’t Abraham say to the Rich Man, you should not TURN to me thou shall only TURN to God? …The Answer is: NO! Abraham said no such thing to the Rich Man. So Leeann, this should telll you that it is OK TO TURN TO THOSE WHO RESIDE IN HEAVEN

“The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus” this should tell EVERY Protestant that there are Hosts of saints in Heaven begining with the Saint of Saints Virgin Mary, that we can TURN TO, JUST LIKE THE POPE DID! FOR HELP!

Leeann, I tell you something there is Somone Greater than Abraham here, and it is the Virgin Mary! The Queen is always above her subjects! Now Please don’t twist my words around, Virgin Mary is not above Jesus, Ok! …Nor is Virgin Mary Worshiped!

So, the Pope TURNED to Virgin Mary, He only did what Jesus Christ did while he was on the cross! So, the Rich Man TUREND to Abraham, so Jesus Christ is saying that it is OK to TURN to Abraham and above all Saints, TURN TO VIRGIN MARY!

So Case/thread Closed!

Ufam Tobie

 

[Good_Fella]

None of the saints who have been glorified are separated from Christ. Frankly, I am puzzled by the need to separate them.

Indeed. Paul would be just as puzzled if he were alive today.

As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
1 Corinthians 12-13, 26

Paul is telling us that by virtue of our baptism all are integrated into a single organism despite the social and ethnic differences of its members. There is a diversity of functions among the parts of the body that in no way can threaten its unity since all members have been baptized in Christ, who is the head, into his body. For one to presume that the departed saints are separated from us is to presuppose that they are no longer baptized in Christ and drinking of the one Spirit together with us united to our Head.

Paul exhorts all members of the one body in Christ united together in baptism to pray for one another. In other words, our Lord desires that we all do, seeing that we have a share in each other’s sufferings and joys as members of his one body.

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
*1 Timothy 2, 1,3 *

Not only did Paul pray for others himself, but he asked others to pray for him, and placed his hope in their prayers which reach God.

I give thanks to my God at every remembrance of you, praying always with joy in my every prayer for all of you, because of your ‘partnership’ for the gospel from the first day until now.
*Philippians 1, 3-5 *

To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given to me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
*Ephesians 6, 18-20 *

Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1, 19

Paul teaches that we become children of God and joint heirs with Christ through baptism. In other words, all the baptized are adopted into the family of God. And as joint heirs with Christ we share in the victory of the resurrection (Col 2: 11-13; Rom 8: 15-17). Paul certainly perceived the family of God extending from the faithful here on earth to the holy ones who have made it to heaven initially by virtue of our common baptism. He certainly believed that the Christians who have preceded us worship God in heaven as we worship God on earth.

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12, 22-24

Some Non-Catholics, being severed from the Apostolic Tradition, object to the dogma of the Communion of Saints because they believe that the holy souls don’t go directly to God upon death but simply fall asleep until the last day. Thus they must conclude that temporarily the departed holy ones are separated from the living family of God and death has separated them from the love of Christ. But if we recall, Jesus assured the good thief on the cross that he would be with our Lord in paradise that same day (Lk 23:43). For as Paul tells us, death cannot separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:38).

The premise of such a statement seems to be that, if one cannot see it in scripture, then it does not come from the Apostles.

Absolutely! There may be no explicit record of the Apostles or the Christian community invoking the departed saints for their prayerful support as “stewards of God’s grace” in the family of God. But it is clear that Paul believed the departed saints are alive in Christ and with Christ in heaven. The saints who pray for us are both alive here on earth and even more so in heaven (Rev 5:8). Since Paul had asked the Church Militant to pray for him, I see no reason why he wouldn’t have invoked the Church Triumphant also. In the order of grace Mary is above all the Saints having already been resurrected from the dead by virtue of her Divine Maternity and her Immaculate Conception.

PAX :harp:

 

[rinnie]

Maybe this could sum it up:

Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE, the LORD is WITH THEE! Think about it the Lord is with her. :newidea: