Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Tantum_ergo]

Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE, the LORD is WITH THEE! Think about it the Lord is with her.

Rinnie, that’s spot on.

Think of it: The Lord is with Mary. Does that mean He was only with her ‘at that moment?’

No, the Lord was, and is, with Mary at all times.

Therefore when I spoke of prayer to Jesus in Mary, or Mary in Jesus, I was reflecting the Scriptural truth.

God is eternal and unchanging. He is with Mary then and now. There is absolutely no Scripture that says that He ever ‘left her’, is there?

So in a figurative turn in praying to Mary (which prayers always have Jesus as their ultimate end) the person is not turning away from Jesus, but is turned toward Jesus as the ultimate focus.

There is no dichotomy. There is no ‘Mary OR Jesus’.

Mary AND Jesus are united just as St. Paul tells us all are united in the Body of Christ.

I can’t understand why people want to ‘split’ Christ from His own Body. . .

 

[guanophore]

I think you might be surprised to know that many Non-Catholics are aware of meditative/contemplative prayer and practice it themselves, both collectively and in private and have done so for many years.

Much longer than Christianity, for sure. So no, I am aware that non-Catholics use this form of prayer. I have learned a great deal about meditation from non-Catholics. It is commonly used in all the ancient martial arts.

Having said that….the correlation that you attempt to make by the use of the “sunset/ contemplative prayer” scenario and that of “asking Mary for her prayers also” simply does not
“gel”.

I think because I was not attempting to compare contempletive prayer with supplicative prayer. I was trying to show that not all prayer is worship, and that other persons being present does not “subtract” from God.

You are comparing two separate things completely and it has nothing to do with “understanding the Catholic meaning of “prayer”. You yourself point out a difference above in your responses.

Your contention is that we should “pray” to no one but God. I would say that we should worship and adore no other but God, but to supplicate, or to meditate does not subtract from God.

While this may in some way satisfy your understanding as to why the Pope would turn to Mary in prayer….how does it apply to the Pope not knowing where to turn too…except to Mary?

It is a figure of speech, Leeann. It is like asking any person for help who has expertise in a certain area. It does not mean a person has not, or does not, turn to God. If I have a problem with my taxes, I can pray about it and turn it over to God, as I am sure the Pope does with all His problems. I will then go to my tax accountant and say, “if you can’t help me, I will not know where to turn”. Obviously, I could turn to a number of other sources, but because he has worked with me for many years and solved all of my other tax problems, he is my first choice. This does not “subtract” from God either.

 

[Leeann]

Hi AshleyBelle

Thank you for posting……there were so many other new responses on here I almost missed yours as I went back to catch up.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

 

[Leeann]

guanophore]
I think part of the problem that some people have with this much authority being given to humans is that they don’t really believe that God does this. We can see that He did this with Abraham, and Moses, and some other figures in scripture, but we don’t seem to really believe He meant what He said about “greater things than I do will you do, because I go to the father”.

And that would be an interesting “thread” on its own, but with regards to this thread topic….
Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus ?

 

[Leeann]

tantum ergo

As I have said before in that prayer (which LeeAnn persistently ‘truncates’ in that she never finishes the rest of the article which puts it in context) the Pope is not saying, “Oh Mary, the world is in trouble and if you don’t help us we have nowhere else to turn–because we aren’t even THINKING of Jesus”.

If the Pope is THINKING of Jesus, you’d think that he’d be aware that Jesus is able and willing to do all that we ask for in times of need.
As for me “persistently truncating the prayer because I never finish the rest of the article “ - would you like me to post the whole article each time I refer to the prayer - or is it not sufficient that at the opening post of this thread, I posted the website address where the whole article can be viewed and made note that this was an “Excerpt” so that visiting posters could go and look at the whole article?

tantum ergo

Why do you think we look to Mary anyway? As the Mother of Jesus, her prayers are very powerful. If she is praying with us, then (as Scripture tells us) we have the prayers of a very righteous person united to ours, don’t we?

Where exactly do the scriptures tell us that, with regards to Mary’s prayers being very powerful and that you are to go to/through her in prayer or any other person that has gone to heaven.

tantum ergo

So if Mary is praying with us, we have Jesus’ own dear Mother ‘on our side’ and helping us pray to Him. Isn’t that a good thing?

If Mary isn’t praying with us, then a source of great righteousness and powerful prayer is not joined with us. Where can we turn, then, to find another such righteous person to pray with us to God?

Do you have any candidates in mind whom you personally think are righteous and holy enough that they are ‘greater’ to ask help from in praying to God, than Mary?

Jesus….

Hebrews 4: 14 – 16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Leeann]

benedictus2

Yes, bibliolatry.

Thanks for taking the time to post!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus ?

Answer:

There is no such thing as Mary being ‘separate’ from Jesus such that she (or indeed any saint in heaven) is a focus, if you will, in and of herself/himself.

So Mary would not be standing ‘here’ and Jesus "there’ with the apostles saying to us, “Dudes, take your eyes from Mary here and turn to Jesus there”.

Mary is not ‘detached’ from Jesus as a semigod, demigod, hemidemisemisquaver god, what have you.

She is standing right there with Him–so close that she cannot be separated from Him, nor He separated from her (or indeed any other of the saints).

Scripture tells us so. Why quibble with Scripture and attempt to paint a false picture or set up a ‘hypothetical situation’ that just can’t and won’t ever exist?

Honestly, this is like the old “Can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift” scenario.

The Pope was never taking Jesus ‘out of the question’ to begin with as a study of the prayer, and the context of the situation, makes perfectly clear for those who are willing to crack the ‘stony heart’ of their preconceived biases against the Mother of the Lord.

 

[Leeann]

ufamtobie

Hi Leeann,

Jesus TURNED to Virgin Mary on the Cross TO FULL FILL his LAST COMMANDMENT TO US ALL While He was yet Alive: You can find this in the below Bible verse:

(John 19: 26-28) Seeing his Mother there with the disciple whom he loved, Jesus said said to His Mother, “Woman, there is your son.” In turn he said to the disciple, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.” From that hour onward, the disciple took her into his care.

Again, I can’t stess it enough! Jesus Christ Last Commandment to us all while He was yet Alive on the Cross “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER”

Leeann, You can’t Ignor the FACT that Jesus Christ also TURNED to His Mother, and asked of her: “WOMAN, THERE IS YOUR SON.”

I understand that this is what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to the verse you have quoted,

As you say, this is the Catholic Church’s teachings and while you may accept and believe that this was a “commandment” to all Christians, because of this teaching, there is no indication that it is anything more than Jesus demonstrating his love and concern for His mother’s welfare and care.

As to the “fact” that Jesus “turned to His Mother and asked of her:” – this is simply not true, He didn’t “ask of Mary”….He was telling to her, in a similar vein as that which he had told the disciple……that she should consider this disciple as her son and that she would be taken care of by this disciple as if she were his mother.

ufamtobie
Leeann, Jesus Christ turned to his Mother while he was on the Cross, This means we can also TURN to Virgin Mary! After all did not Jesus Christ say that we must be Like Him in all things?

Jesus did not turn to Mary, his mother “asking of/for” anything.
He did cry out to His Father….and committed His spirit into His hands.
If you truly believe “**that we must be like Him in all things”, **then going to our Father in prayer as Jesus did is a good example to follow.

ufamtobie

Leeann, What about “The Rich Man and Lazarus”? (Luke 16: 24-26)

Did not the Rich Man TURNED/PRAYED to Abraham? …

Leeann, why didn’t the Rich man TURN/PRAY Only to God?

Leeann, This Rich Man is in Hell, and He has more sense than YOU?

The Rich Man Turned/'Prayer was heard by Abraham and perhaps answered for a Man by the Name of Lazarus did come back from the Grave

Why didn’t Abraham say to the Rich Man, you should not TURN to me thou shall only TURN to God? …The Answer is: NO! Abraham said no such thing to the Rich Man. So Leeann, this should telll you that it is OK TO TURN TO THOSE WHO RESIDE IN HEAVEN

“The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus” this should tell EVERY Protestant that there are Hosts of saints in Heaven begining with the Saint of Saints Virgin Mary, that we can TURN TO, JUST LIKE THE POPE DID! FOR HELP!

That is an interesting application of the “story” that Jesus was
using to explain to the Pharisees about the love of money. To take this “story” and then apply it to a teaching by the Catholic Church of being able to pray to anyone in heaven other than God (Jesus) for help - is missing what the purpose of this “story” and the intentions of what this “story” were meant to apply too.

In the story…the rich man cried out to Abraham and spoke to Abraham…no indication of “praying to” Abraham…the fact that Jesus uses “Abraham” in this story, as to whom the rich man called out too, is the rich man was dead…separated from God….no access as Abraham in the “story” points out to him.

The whole “story” is Jesus’ way of illustrating the seriousness to the Pharisees of placing such store in riches, not in to whom they or us should be turning too for help.

ufamtobie
So, the Pope TURNED to Virgin Mary, He only did what Jesus Christ did while he was on the cross! So, the Rich Man TUREND to Abraham, so Jesus Christ is saying that it is OK to TURN to Abraham and above all Saints, TURN TO VIRGIN MARY!

The Pope turned to Mary in prayer and supplication……Jesus didn’t do that when He was on the cross,(referring to your own words above) or indicate at any time that this was appropriate or necessary and neither did the Apostles, (while she lived/or afterwards). With regards to the “story” about the rich man calling out to Abraham…that in no way substantiates the Catholic Church’s teaching that it is OK to turn to Abraham or any other saint that is in heaven.

ufamtobie
So Case/thread Closed!

Ufam Tobie

Ufam Tobie…the thread is still open to all others who would like to express their views and understanding with regards to the thread topic.

Thank you for taking the time to post.

 

[Leeann]

Posted by Good Fella:
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
1 Corinthians 12-13, 26

Good Fella:
For one to presume that the departed saints are separated from us is to presuppose that they are no longer baptized in Christ and drinking of the one Spirit together with us united to our Head.

For one to presume that this is indeed what others actually do believe in regards to the departed saints is to presuppose that your *understanding *of what they believe is correct and that it is so. The above scripture in no way indicates that Paul was encouraging the early believers (or us) to pray to/through the departed saints…it only attests to the fact that we are all united in Spirit.

Good fella
Paul exhorts all members of the one body in Christ united together in baptism to pray for one another. In other words, our Lord desires that we all do, seeing that we have a share in each other’s sufferings and joys as members of his one body.

*First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1,3 *

Paul does exhort all members of the one body in Christ united together – on earth – to pray for one another. He is writing this epistle to Timothy and exhorts him to follow his instructions and to make the members of the one body in Christ – who are there at that time – on earth – aware of this instruction and to do as he says - support and encourage and pray for one another and others. This verse in now way indicates that they/we are to pray to/through the saints that are heaven.

Good fella
Not only did Paul pray for others himself, but he asked others to pray for him, and placed his hope in their prayers which reach God.

I give thanks to my God at every remembrance of you, praying always with joy in my every prayer for all of you, because of your ‘partnership’ for the gospel from the first day until now.
Philippians 1, 3-5

Paul – explaining how he supports those early believers (on earth) in prayer.
*To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones and also for me, that speech may be given to me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
Ephesians 6, 18-20 *
The Duaoy Rheims does not have the same translation as “holy ones” as indicated above in the verse you posted from Ephesians 6 – but simply “saints” and since that is what you have been referring to all along, I thought I would post it here to keep the continuity flowing.
Duaoy Rheims (online)
18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: 19 And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel. 20 For which I am an ambassador in a chain, so that therein I may be bold to speak according as I ought.
Paul – at the end of explaining to the believers at Ephesus about spiritual warfare and putting on the whole armor of God – waist with truth – breastplate of righteousness – feet shod with the gospel of peace – shield of faith – helmet of salvation – sword of the Spirit, the word of God ……coming to verse 18 , where he encourages them that they should be praying always in the Spirit, watchful and in perseverance for all the saints….
Paul was obviously exhorting the believers of that time to pray for one another right there…to be watchful and in perseverance for all the saints……he wasn’t exhorting them to pray to/through the saints that had already gone before.
Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1, 19
Paul – rejoicing with the knowledge that the believers (on earth) were upholding him and his ministry in prayer.

Good fella
Paul teaches that we become children of God and joint heirs with Christ through baptism. In other words, all the baptized are adopted into the family of God. And as joint heirs with Christ we share in the victory of the resurrection (Col 2: 11-13; Rom 8: 15-17). Paul certainly perceived the family of God extending from the faithful here on earth to the holy ones who have made it to heaven initially by virtue of our common baptism. He certainly believed that the Christians who have preceded us worship God in heaven as we worship God on earth.

But Paul did not encourage or teach that the early believers (us) should go to/through these saints (here you have used the term “holy ones”) in prayer.

 

[Leeann]

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12, 22-24

Good fella
Some Non-Catholics, being severed from the Apostolic Tradition, object to the dogma of the Communion of Saints because they believe that the holy souls don’t go directly to God upon death but simply fall asleep until the last day. Thus they must conclude that temporarily the departed holy ones are separated from the living family of God and death has separated them from the love of Christ. But if we recall, Jesus assured the good thief on the cross that he would be with our Lord in paradise that same day (Lk 23:43). For as Paul tells us, death cannot separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:38).

As you say -some- Non-Catholics may believe this…and some may not……so what is the point you’re trying to make….how does this tie in with those Non-Catholics that do believe that those in heaven are alive, just as Paul did, but don’t believe the Catholic Church’s teaching that you can or should go to/through them in prayer….as Paul and the Apostles and Jesus Himself never taught of encouraged this practice.

Good fella
The premise of such a statement seems to be that, if one cannot see it in scripture, then it does not come from the Apostles.
Absolutely! There may be no explicit record of the Apostles or the Christian community invoking the departed saints for their prayerful support as “stewards of God’s grace” in the family of God. But it is clear that Paul believed the departed saints are alive in Christ and with Christ in heaven. The saints who pray for us are both alive here on earth and even more so in heaven (Rev 5:8). Since Paul had asked the Church Militant to pray for him, I see no reason why he wouldn’t have invoked the Church Triumphant also. In the order of grace Mary is above all the Saints having already been resurrected from the dead by virtue of her Divine Maternity and her Immaculate Conception.

Whether *you see no reason *why Paul wouldn’t have invoked those saints in heaven to pray for him….or whether the Catholic Church sees no reason….is not the issue. The fact is, that Paul and the Apostles were quite clear and stringent on all their instructions when establishing and overseeing those early churches and they never once mentioned or encouraged this practice at all.

To say that you or the Catholic Church “sees no reason why something didn’t occur or was not done” reveals more clearly to me how this practice and others have developed over the centuries.

Thank you for sharing your insights and posting here.

 

[Leeann]

tantum ergo
Therefore when I spoke of prayer to Jesus in Mary, or Mary in Jesus, I was reflecting the Scriptural truth.

You can “reflect” the Scriptural truth all you want in an attempt make it support this particular practice of the Catholic Church’s …ANY church of ANY denomination can do that… and does……but the TRUTH of Scripture stands alone and is clear on “to whom the Apostles would point the Pope too….”

tantum ergo
God is eternal and unchanging. He is with Mary then and now. There is absolutely no Scripture that says that He ever ‘left her’, is there?

And there is no scripture that says we are to place our hope and faith in Mary (but the Catholic Church portrays this) and there is no scripture that says we are to seek “pity” from Mary…
or that “all graces”come through Mary to us (but the Catholic Church portrays this) and there are no scriptures that indicate we are to pray to/through Mary in order to obtain a better understanding of Jesus or to somehow “placate” Him into hearing our prayers …are there?

tantum ergo
So in a figurative turn in praying to Mary (which prayers always have Jesus as their ultimate end)
(except the one that this thread pertains too…the one where the Pope doesn’t know who else to turn too if Mary will not help us……if Mary deems us ungrateful and unworthy of her “protection”……if Mary will not show us “pity”….)the person is not turning away from Jesus, but is turned toward Jesus as the ultimate focus.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann

*I think you might be surprised to know that many Non-Catholics are aware of meditative/contemplative prayer and practice it themselves, both collectively and in private and have done so for many years. *

Response guanophore:
Much longer than Christianity, for sure. So no, I am aware that non-Catholics use this form of prayer. I have learned a great deal about meditation from non-Catholics. It is commonly used in all the ancient martial arts.

I was referring to the form more commonly used by other Non-Catholic Christians – Protestants for instance.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
You are comparing two separate things completely and it has nothing to do with “understanding the Catholic meaning of “prayer”. You yourself point out a difference above in your responses.

Response guanophore:
Your contention is that we should “pray” to no one but God. I would say that we should worship and adore no other but God, but to supplicate, or to meditate does not subtract from God.

My contention is that we should not be praying to/through Mary, as this is not what the Apostles encouraged of taught.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
While this may in some way satisfy your understanding as to why the Pope would turn to Mary in prayer….how does it apply to the Pope not knowing where to turn too…except to Mary?

Response guanophore:
It is a figure of speech, Leeann. It is like asking any person for help who has expertise in a certain area. It does not mean a person has not, or does not, turn to God. If I have a problem with my taxes, I can pray about it and turn it over to God, as I am sure the Pope does with all His problems.
I will then go to my tax accountant and say, “if you can’t help me, I will not know where to turn”. Obviously, I could turn to a number of other sources, but because he has worked with me for many years and solved all of my other tax problems, he is my first choice. This does not “subtract” from God either.

Yes, this was discussed earlier in Post # 153

guanophore:
This prayer was made after the Mass, Leeann. The perfect prayer to Jesus had already been made. Now, he is asking for the intercession of other persons.

Leeann: Then by his own actions and the words of the prayer itself…he is either really confused….or not sure that the “perfect prayer to Jesus” was sufficient…. Yikes!

 

[Leeann]

Going to enjoy the rest of this wonderful WEEKEND!!!

 

[Good_Fella]

As you say some Non-Catholics may believe this…and some may not……so what is the point you’re trying to make….how does this tie in with those Non-Catholics that do believe that those in heaven are alive, just as Paul did, but don’t believe the Catholic Church’s teaching that you can or should go to/through them in prayer….as Paul and the Apostles and Jesus Himself never taught of encouraged this practice.

The saints who are living members in the mystical body of Christ are as prayerfully active as the faithful members of the Church here on earth. Since the departed holy ones are alive and prayerfully active in Christ, united with us in the Spirit, we on earth invoke them in prayer. If the saints were actually “asleep”, separated from us in death, then there would be no point in asking them for their prayers. Not everything Jesus taught and did has been recorded in the Scriptures. The Gospels cover a span of about eighteen hours of our Lord’s three year ministry. And what has been handed down to us pertains to the fundamentals of faith and morals. The evangelists convey the essential truths of our faith which are necessary for us to know and observe.

Private devotion, such as invoking the departed saints, is more or less a sufficient exercise of faith. Although Catholics are obligated to give their sacred assent to the dogma of the Communion of Saints, they are not necessarily obligated to invoke the Saints beyond participation in the Sacred Liturgy of the Mass in a private capacity. And just because the Apostles haven’t explicitly instructed us in their occasional letters to ask the departed saints to pray for us, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the early Christian community failed to practice this form of devotion. We have more reason to believe that the early Christians would have invoked the saints if there were any departed saints, besides the martyred Stephen and James, to petition in apostolic time while Paul was still alive.

Whether you see no reason why Paul wouldn’t have invoked those saints in heaven to pray for him….or whether the Catholic Church sees no reason….is not the issue. The fact is, that Paul and the Apostles were quite clear and stringent on all their instructions when establishing and overseeing those early churches and they never once mentioned or encouraged this practice at all.

Paul and the Apostles were “quite clear and stringent” in their instructions that we must hold fast to the traditions they have handed down to us whether by word of mouth or by a letter of theirs. Not everything they preached was explicitly written down in the scriptures. What they have traditionally left us as necessary to know and observe pertain to the fundamentals of our faith and morals, and this includes the tradition of Apostolic Succession and authority which we must recognize. Moreover, the Apostles exhorted us not to rely on the private interpretation of Scripture, but to turn to the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church which is the “pillar and foundation of truth”, in order to understand the divine truths that are implicitly contained in the written word and point toward an observance. As long as you appoint yourself as the final arbiter of divine truth by relying strictly on your private interpretation of Scripture, and approach the written word with a purely literal-historical sense, your understanding of the Word of God will remain sorely deficient. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition by the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church in matters of faith and morals.

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
Acts 8, 31-32

The Jews still beg to disagree with Philip as Protestants still object to and reject the dogma of the Communion of Saints as defined by the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church. My benign advice to you is to follow the example of the Ethiopian eunuch. He received a full understanding of the truth by deciding not to rely on his own private interpretation of Scripture but turn to the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church and Tradition which precedes the written word.

To say that you or the Catholic Church “sees no reason why something didn’t occur or was not done” reveals more clearly to me how this practice and others have developed over the centuries.

We have biblical evidence that the first Gentile converts to Christianity were exempted from observing Judaic religious customs in apostolic time. But we don’t need it to understand why they would have been exempted. Our faith alone sufficiently provides the reasons why we should believe these Gentile converts were exempted from observing Judaic customs in the infant church at Jerusalem and indicates this exemption has included all of us Gentiles since apostolic time. And we know by appealing to our faith that the Jewish Christians must have eventually abandoned their former religious customs despite any biblical record. If devotion to the saints were an exercise of faith that had fully developed in the course of time, it would make no difference, for Jesus promised not to leave us orphaned and that he would send us the Paraclete to guide us in all truth until he returns at the end of this age. At this point in time the Church had just been born and was beginning to grow in faith and understanding through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Good_Fella]

For one to presume that this is indeed what others actually do believe in regards to the departed saints is to presuppose that your *understanding *of what they believe is correct and that it is so. The above scripture in no way indicates that Paul was encouraging the early believers (or us) to pray to/through the departed saints…it only attests to the fact that we are all united in Spirit.

I see you’re still quibbling, Leeann. Paul’s understanding of the mystical body of Christ is that of the Catholic faith. All members of the Church are united in Christ by virtue of their common baptism. And death does not separate them from the love of Christ and his grace thereby separating some branches from other branches that are connected on the same vine. The above passage reveals that the departed saints or holy ones are as prayerfully active as the faithful on earth being a part of the same body of Christ as stewards of his grace through baptism. This passage indicates that Paul would have expected the faithful to invoke the departed saints or holy ones for their prayers, since he exhorted the faithful to pray for each other and he himself asked the Christian community to pray for him and all the disciples who were engaged in their ministries, unless you think Paul actually believed that the departed saints or holy ones were asleep for the time being, which obviously he didn’t. We need no exhortation explicitly put down in writing to understand what Paul must have believed and expected.

Paul does exhort all members of the one body in Christ united together – on earth – to pray for one another. He is writing this epistle to Timothy and exhorts him to follow his instructions and to make the members of the one body in Christ – who are there at that time – on earth – aware of this instruction and to do as he says - support and encourage and pray for one another and others. This verse in now way indicates that they/we are to pray to/through the saints that are heaven.

Again, all living members of the one body of Christ include the living on earth and the living in heaven by virtue of their common baptism. We all pray for one another on earth, while the saints or holy ones who have preceded us and have been made perfect in heaven pray for us who must still persevere in faith to reach our heavenly goal.

Paul – explaining how he supports those early believers (on earth) in prayer.
*To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones *and also for me, that speech may be given to me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
Ephesians 6, 18-20

Paul was obviously exhorting the believers of that time to pray for one another right there…to be watchful and in perseverance for all the saints……he wasn’t exhorting them to pray to/through the saints that had already gone before.

Of course he was. I’m not denying that. Indeed, he wasn’t exhorting the faithful then and there to petition the departed saints. On this occasion he was strictly concerned with asking members of the Christian community to pray for him, encouraging the prayerful support we the faithful here on earth should give for one another. But as I pointed out above, he would have expected and appreciated that the faithful invoke the help of the departed saints or holy ones to join in their prayers to God on his behalf. The point is that all members of the mystical body of Christ serve as intercessors or factual mediators by praying together on behalf of others.

Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1, 19
Paul – rejoicing with the knowledge that the believers (on earth) were upholding him and his ministry in prayer.

But Paul did not encourage or teach that the early believers (us) should go to/through these saints (here you have used the term “holy ones”) in prayer.

Saints certainly aren’t “unholy ones”. Again, it isn’t a question of whether Paul was exhorting the faithful to invoke the intercession of the departed saints or holy ones. The lesson we learn here is that Paul did not isolate himself from the Christian community but placed his hope in the prayers of others. According to your reasoning, he should have been content with praying directly to the Father or Jesus in the privacy of his own room instead of asking other members of the Church to pray for him. Either read my posts more carefully or refrain from deliberately creating a straw man argument.

PAX :winter:

 

[rinnie]

Okay leeann if you were going to ask anyone in this world to help pray with you. Who would you ask. Who do you think is any closer to the Jesus than his Mother.

Do you understand stand what the Pope meant now. He never said I will replace God with the Blessed Mother.

He was saying without her to pray with him and her prayers to help him he does not know who he would go to. The Pope understands that Jesus left us one other very important gift. HIS MOTHER. And he made her all of our Mother.

Who can you relate to more, and who besides God loves you anymore than your Mother.

A Mother will walk through fire for her child. A Mother is so close to a child like no other. A mother carried you inside of her. IT gets no closer than that. A Mothers Love. You understand. We are her kids and she will do whatever she can to help us.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, LeeAnn, once again, we reiterate, we** are** already going to Jesus.

I repeat, in the prayer of the Pope to Mary, we are already praying to Jesus as our ultimate aim and focus.

So, of all the ‘not-Jesus’ people on the earth or in the heavens, do you, LeeAnn, have a candidate whom you think is more qualified, or ‘closer’ to the Lord than His own Mother?

If any child had done something wrong, and was going to go ‘face his father’ (who certainly loves him and will not ‘reject’ him but may indeed require him to make restitution for the wrong), don’t you think any child would want “Mom” to come along? Remember, the father is the authority. He will listen to the mother, though, with respect as his wife and helper, as the mother of the child.

God is our Father, Mary is our Mother (yes, Scripture and the Church tell us so). God is perfectly just and he does not need to ‘listen’ to others but Scripture also tells us that, when approached by ‘the righteous’, God **listened to them.

**Who is more righteous among human beings than the Mother of God?

Did God decide to ‘stop listening to people?’ (Scripture certainly doesn’t support that idea).

A huge emphasis is often made by some Protestants that we ‘need not fear’ God which is true in a sense but (as is so often the case) is so distorted in the practice that it actually becomes an untruth when carried as far as to imply that God ‘saves’ us in spite of ourselves or is like some cosmic ‘grandpa’ who only wants people to ‘enjoy’ and ‘love’ without any sort of responsibility or effort.

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” as Scripture tells us. That so many have lost a sense of sin and a corresponding humility that is the prerequisite of our approaching God in the first place is tragic.

 

[guanophore]

And that would be an interesting “thread” on its own, but with regards to this thread topic….

I suppose it could, but it is also germaine to this thread. One of the reasons that we can go to one another is because of the gifts and power that God has given through His only Son, to His Body, the Church. When we tap into these other gifts, we glorify Him in serving one another.

" To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings." 1 Cor 9:21-23

Do any of us imagine that Paul believes he saves anyone of himself?

" Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers." 1 Tim 4:15-16

Do any of us think that Paul believes that Timothy’s teaching will “save both” himself and his hearers? Would we not be in agreement that only God’s grace saves anyone?

“My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, 20 you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20

Can any of us actually save another sinners soul from death? Do any of us imagine that sins can be covered by anything but the Blood of Christ?

"And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies."Jude 21-23

Are people empowered to have mercy? Can we “save” others by snatching them from the fire?

Jesus is generous, and He allows us to participate in His ministry of reconciling the world to Himself. Those who are closest to His heart understand and practice this the best.

Don’t you think that 30 years with the Son of God enabled Mary to understand why He was here?

 

[guanophore]

If the Pope is THINKING of Jesus, you’d think that he’d be aware that Jesus is able and willing to do all that we ask for in times of need.

You know, I do think he is aware of that!

We are only able to help one another because Jesus allows us to do so.

As for me “persistently truncating the prayer because I never finish the rest of the article “ - would you like me to post the whole article each time I refer to the prayer - or is it not sufficient that at the opening post of this thread, I posted the website address where the whole article can be viewed and made note that this was an “Excerpt” so that visiting posters could go and look at the whole article?

Personally, I don’t think it matters if you post the whole prayer, or not. You have judged the Pope, and found him wanting in his spiritual life. No amount or totality of prayers on his part will change this.
Leeann;4714829:

Where exactly do the scriptures tell us that, with regards to Mary’s prayers being very powerful and that you are to go to/through her in prayer or any other person that has gone to heaven.

These scriptures have been posted. However, such a question implies that all of Christian faith and practice should be contained in the Scriptures, which is an error. The Apostles did not distinguish between those saints who have gone to be with the Lord, and those that were still here, except that they considered those in heaven unimpeded by the cares of this world, and therefore, able to have a more powerful prayer.

Jesus….

Hebrews 4: 14 – 16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Amen!

Thanks be to God for His generosity in allowing us to participate in His priesthood.

 

[guanophore]

For one to presume that this is indeed what others actually do believe in regards to the departed saints is to presuppose that your *understanding *of what they believe is correct and that it is so.…it only attests to the fact that we are all united in Spirit.

It is not a supposition, but the Teaching that has beenhanded down to us from the Apostles.

Paul does exhort all members of the one body in Christ united together – on earth – to pray for one another.

Paul makes no distinction in the Body between those that are here, and those that have gone on to be with the Lord.

Hebrews 11 gives an accounting of this “great cloud of witnesses” by which we are surrrounded. The author urges us that we should press on “BECAUSE” we are surrounded by them.
Leeann;4714927:

He is writing this epistle to Timothy and exhorts him to follow his instructions and to make the members of the one body in Christ – who are there at that time – on earth – aware of this instruction and to do as he says - support and encourage and pray for one another and others. This verse in now way indicates that they/we are to pray to/through the saints that are heaven.

seems like you are adding a few modifyers to the scripture. Paul says nothing about “who are there, at that time, on earth”.

The Apostles made no distinction. This is what the communion of saints is all about.

Paul – explaining how he supports those early believers (on earth) in prayer.

*To that end, be watchful with all perseverance and supplication for all the holy ones *and also for me, that speech may be given to me to open my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in chains, so that I may have the courage to speak as I must.
Ephesians 6, 18-20
The Duaoy Rheims does not have the same translation as “holy ones” as indicated above in the verse you posted from Ephesians 6 – but simply “saints” and since that is what you have been referring to all along, I thought I would post it here to keep the continuity flowing.
Duaoy Rheims (online)
18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: 19 And for me, that speech may be given me, that I may open my mouth with confidence, to make known the mystery of the gospel. 20 For which I am an ambassador in a chain, so that therein I may be bold to speak according as I ought.
Paul – at the end of explaining to the believers at Ephesus about spiritual warfare and putting on the whole armor of God – waist with truth – breastplate of righteousness – feet shod with the gospel of peace – shield of faith – helmet of salvation – sword of the Spirit, the word of God ……coming to verse 18 , where he encourages them that they should be praying always in the Spirit, watchful and in perseverance for all the saints….
Paul was obviously exhorting the believers of that time to pray for one another right there…to be watchful and in perseverance for all the saints……he wasn’t exhorting them to pray to/through the saints that had already gone before.
Indeed I shall continue to rejoice, for I know this will result in deliverance for me through your prayers and support from the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1, 19
Paul – rejoicing with the knowledge that the believers (on earth) were upholding him and his ministry in prayer.

But Paul did not encourage or teach that the early believers (us) should go to/through these saints (here you have used the term “holy ones”) in prayer.

You are assuming that all these have to do with those saints who are still on earth. Paul acknowledged the Holy Ones that had gone on to be with the Lord also. They are separated from their bodies, but not their love of the disciples of Christ.