Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[diggingdeeper]

diggingdeeper,
You do realize you are pitting your interpretation or teaching of Scripture against the Catholic Church who taught, protected and penned the Bible don’t you? As history has shown, as man has brought flawed human nature, pride and ego into determining what Scripture means, there is no stopping that carnage. Thousands of denominations, all with different teaching, tradition, doctrine and interpretation of Scripture later just prove that there has to be an authorative interpreter of Scripture. I am sorry that you have been taught to believe contrary to what we are telling you, but, the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH that Jesus established the way He wanted to and IS guiding and protecting His Church from error just as He promised He would. He said those words, we didn’t. It didn’t give His Authority to all men or promise to guide and protect each and every human on his/her spiritual journey. He only gave His Authority and His promise to guide and protect to the Apostles. He gave them His Authority to bind and to loose because He knew that the Apostles would have to found His Church as well as teach the successors who would continue building His Church, and so forth. Catholics BELIEVE what Jesus said. We always have.

The Catholic Church has condemend heresy all through the centuries. I am sure you would agree that Arianism was something that needed to be denied. Luther and his buddies needed to be denied - they started teaching heresy.

Jesus has protected His Church and kept His teaching from error. Man can error. Do you think Jesus can? Did He set up the Church and then couldn’t guide it? No wrath for going off the rails?

I really was hoping that you were going to be open. Everything we are telling you CAN be verified by you by searching history. We have documented it for ALL Christians. Only the Catholic Church has the richness, the fullness of Jesus’ Deposit of Faith. You just don’t know it.

I hope you stick around long enough to gain a better understanding of Jesus’ Church. I have to ask you to PLEASE do it with a soft, open heart, without bias, if you can. I know that would have to be difficult. You have your own ownership of what you know, but you just haven’t been taught the complete fullness and history of the Church or the meaning and context that the Church has always understood from the mouth of Jesus Himself. No one else can give that to you. Please understand that.

I’m sorry but my minc and my conscience is captive to the word of God. Here I stand. And I stand with thousands of the finest scholars and millions of knowledgable and devout Christians worldwide. I am absolutely unfazed by the party line. I have studied and discussed what I speak of here for thirty years. I honestly don’t have even the first doubt in what I say on these pages, and I am accountable to many who die daily for what they believe. I pray that one day you will know why all the fuss about being Born Again. I pray that you will understand why Mother Teresa had such doubts in her life. I pray your heart will one day ring out with joy over knowing why Paul said, (speaking to the saints–the Christians in Ephesus) "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast."

 

[ufamtobie]

Friend, all Jesus was doing when He said, “Behold your mother” was telling John to take care of His mother! He was just being a good son."

Nbtb,

I don’t know about you, but many Protestant believe Virgin Mary had more children and these Children being Jesus Christ’s Brothers.

This goes to show you that Virgin Mary Had no other children and this is why Jesus Wants John to take care of His Mother.

BUT, it goes yet deeper than this, this should tell all Christians that this Last Command was for us as well, and that is that we too should take Virgin Mary as our Mother. Truth is that Jesus Christ gave his all for us, gave his Life for us, and gave his Mother to us.

Remember Virgin Mary said “THE LORD HAS DONE GREAT THINGSSSS FOR ME”

Virgin Mary did not say the Lord has Done a great “THING” for Me, but THINGSSS for Me. And One of these GREAT THINGSSS done for Virgin Mary is that IS Our Mother!

Nbtb, What is the Great Thingsss that God has Done for Virgin Mary Besides giving Birth to Jesus Christ?

Ufam Tobie

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
This thread was closed as it had gone over the 1,000 posting limit…near the end it got “de-railed” quite a bit and went off topic…so starting it up again to see if there are any more replies.

Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus?

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zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

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Elijio:

I would like to share something with you about this and maybe you can help. I have read the article you posted from http://www.zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

The problem with the article is that it conflicts with your question and the actual speeches that I found in the Vatican’s website.

As you will see below, the speeches the Pope gave were on other occasions, either prior to or after this event took place. This was just “one of the high points” of his visit.

elijio
First, the article also says, ''With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Note: '‘With the words of Bartolo’'

Note: “The Pope’s **leading of **“

*“**The Pope’s leading of the ***Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

elijio
It doesn’t say that the pope said that or believes that.

But the Pope did say it. So are you saying that the Pope would “lead” a ‘reading’ of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin if he didn’t believe it? That’s a scary thought, what other things would the Pope “lead”, that he doesn’t believe in?

elijio
It says he said it ‘‘With the words of Bartolo’’. It’s a quote.

No……the Pope was “leading” the gathered people there, with the words of Bartolo,

elijio
The article explains that the prayer the pope read was ''a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) ‘’ which is the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary.

Yes. That is what the article explains. That is why I posted the excerpt and the site for people to go in an read what the article says.

elijio
They are not the words of Pope Benedict XVI or are they in any of the speeches I have found.

That is because the speeches you have found on the websites below were given either prior too or after the event in the article took place…different occasions.

The speech Pope Benedict XVI gives on October 19, 2008 here: vatican.va/holy_father/be…pompei_en.html

The first website is of the Pope speaking to the:
*Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate and in the Priesthood,
Dear men and women religious,
Dear Brothers and Sisters, *after all the ceremonies, when he was leaving.

and also here : vatican.va/holy_father/be…pompei_en.html

The second website is of the Pope’s homily.

“In the homily delivered during Holy Mass today, the Pope evoked the figure of Bartolo Longo, who, like St. Paul, had persecuted the Church, “becoming militantly anticlerical and engaging in spiritualist and superstitious practices.”

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

 

[Hisalone]

The pope is not the vicar of Christ. Is this your best answer when confronted with evidences that the pope is in error?

 

[Good_Fella]

You have misunderstood Paul’s meaning and have as well revealed that this notion of Mary is attached to people who, though intellectually understanding the concept of redemption, have never entered into the personal experience of it. No one who has expereinced that salvation that is in Christ alone through faith would EVER ascribe redemptive qualities to another human. This “doctrine of demons”, to use Paul’s phrase, is exposed for what it is.

Who are you to judge who has ever “entered into the personal experience of redemption”? Further, my understanding of Paul is correct, since it is the Catholic understanding of Paul espoused by the Church Fathers. Honestly, who in the heck are Luther et.al but private individuals like yourself who confuse the word of God with their own fallible interpretations? The early Reformers couldn’t even agree with each other on fine scriptural points of faith, so they split up forming their own denominations and scattered Christ’s sheep taking the Catholic reprobate with them. From then on we have had this pyramid effect of splintering. If the one Spirit of truth had prompted the Protestant Reformation, then this religious tradition wouldn’t be a chaos of faith and morals. It’s elementary, my dear Watson. Loving God and neighbour is a “redemptive quality” of being human.

 

[Good_Fella]

The pope is not the vicar of Christ. Is this your best answer when confronted with evidences that the pope is in error?

The reason why Protestantism is divided in faith and morals is because it has rejected the Vicar of Christ. Jesus told Peter for an obvious reason: “Feed my sheep.” If you put Bartolo’s words in their proper perspective, you will see that Pope Benedict was not in error. But first you must renounce the unbiblical concepts of Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, and Sola Christu espoused by Protestants. Bartolo simply meant that if Jesus had denied a request of his mother, which obviously would never happen since Mary acts immersed in Christ and in accord with His will, then we could never hope to have our petitions answered through the prayers of the other saints in heaven. Meanwhile, the only requests Mary presents on our behalf are those that call for the graces we need to virtuously persevere in faith.

 

[ron77nyc]

I would still like someone to answer that question–What would be the signs that someone was actually worshipping Mary?

You wouldn’t know any more than you would know if someone was looking out a window or at a window.

Look at these definitions:
Worship
1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion intransitive verb : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship
synonyms see revere

Venerate
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference 2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

 

[Peter_J]

But the Pope did say it.

Leeann,

I believe you are correct (see post #422).

But just as a general comment, it is a very good idea to check these things out carefully. Recall when the Pope said:

… he [emperor Manuel II Paleologus] addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.

In that case, the Pope was saying The emperor said such-and-such, but a great many people jumped to the conclusion that Benedict himself was saying such-and-such.

 

[ron77nyc]

The Catholic Catechism says:

“To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ”

425 The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily in proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him. From the beginning, the first disciples burned with the desire to proclaim Christ: “We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.”'11 And they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ.

I think we should get back to our roots.

 

[Peter_J]

I would still like someone to answer that question–What would be the signs that someone was actually worshipping Mary?

Since worshipping Mary is one form of excess (though not the only one), I suggest asking this question on the Question about Mary and excesses thread.

 

[Peter_J]

I think we should get back to our roots.

I only wish that more Protestants felt that way.

 

[ron77nyc]

It really has nothing to do with writing Mary in or out. She is always in. She and Jesus and the saints never stop interceding for the world. All people, all religions, the good, the bad and the ugly are included. Proclaiming Christ is the message of the gospel. “But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” The apostles set the example with the Lord Jesus Himself guiding them every step of the way.

 

[ron77nyc]

My comments are in agreement with the catechism. If I leave the Church I lose my salvation according to Church law. What kind of a man are you telling me something like that? I’m here trying to learn more by sharing my ideas and I’m open to correction. If you have nothing to add in relation to the topic being discussed then you should share your hate rhetoric with someone who enjoys it. I don’t and I’m tired of reading your off topic comments.

 

[ron77nyc]

And this relates to Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? how?

 

[Good_Fella]

… the only requests Mary presents on our behalf are those that call for the graces we need to virtuously persevere in faith.

I’d like to share with you what I mean in this last sentence of my last reply. When my mother was dying of terminal cancer, I beseeched Our Lady to intercede and ask God to miraculously cure her, for medical science could provide no cure. My mother died seven weeks after she was hospitalized and four weeks after her disease was diagnosed (Lymphoma Meningitis). A rare and untreatable disease that left her physical features virtually beyond recognition. I passed by my mother three times in her temporary ward one day before I eventually recognized her. That’s how bad her condition was. Despite my “Hail Mary” she died, but through my prayers to our Blessed Mother I received the grace of faith and hope. Looking back, I don’t believe Mary asked Jesus to cure my mother. She must have asked him to strengthen me in my distress, which our Lord did. Mary does not presume to know what the will of God is in temporal matters and has perfect faith in divine providence. Yet she does know that He will not deny his grace. She must have said to Jesus: “The mother of your disciple is dying. Please strengthen him in his faith and hope in his moment of trial.” It was not a matter of presumption on Mary’s part to know that her divine Son would bestow the graces I needed to help victoriously overcome this trial of faith. Once I received these signal graces, it was up to me to accept them by the power of my will with the continuing help of Mary’s prayers.

 

[nbtb1348]

Since worshipping Mary is one form of excess (though not the only one), I suggest asking this question on the Question about Mary and excesses thread.

OK, thanks for that. I do find it very interesting that you guys are either afraid or unable to describe what worshipping Mary would look like. Is it possible that you can’t answer it without incriminating yourselves? I’m dead serious.

 

[nbtb1348]

I’d like to share with you what I mean in this last sentence of my last reply. When my mother was dying of terminal cancer, I beseeched Our Lady to intercede and ask God to miraculously cure her, for medical science could provide no cure. My mother died seven weeks after she was hospitalized and four weeks after her disease was diagnosed (Lymphoma Meningitis). A rare and untreatable disease that left her physical features virtually beyond recognition. I passed by my mother three times in her temporary ward one day before I eventually recognized her. That’s how bad her condition was. Despite my “Hail Mary” she died, but through my prayers to our Blessed Mother I received the grace of faith and hope. Looking back, I don’t believe Mary asked Jesus to cure my mother. She must have asked him to strengthen me in my distress, which our Lord did. Mary does not presume to know what the will of God is in temporal matters and has perfect faith in divine providence. Yet she does know that He will not deny his grace. She must have said to Jesus: “The mother of your disciple is dying. Please strengthen him in his faith and hope in his moment of trial.” It was not a matter of presumption on Mary’s part to know that her divine Son would bestow the graces I needed to help victoriously overcome this trial of faith. Once I received these signal graces, it was up to me to accept them by the power of my will with the continuing help of Mary’s prayers.

You know, I hate to even talk about this after such a transparent testimony on the most personal and painful of subjects…But the things you share there point to why we believe the entire notion of praying to Mary dishonors Christ and perpetuates unbelief in His promises. It is honestly a total slap in the face to what Scripture invites us to.

Catholics talk about praying to Mary as the one who, when you REALLY want compassion and a compassionate advocate to make sure the Jesus helps you, you go to her. Yet Scripture (ah, that pesky book!) says,

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."–Hebrews 4:15-16

It is like Catholics say, “Sorry, Jesus, we need more than just you. You’re not as sympathetic and helpful as you should be. When we REALLY need mercy and grace, we need to get someone else to help us.”

And when in your post above you talk about Mary “knowing…” My! how that sounds like SHE is the sympathetic deity you need.

Does it even matter that these things are obviously in the face of Scripture? I don’t think it does to the RCC, and thus the need for authority beyond God’s completed Canon.

 

[guanophore]

It is part of the official teaching.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm56.htm
** “Popular devotion invokes Mary as Queen.** The Council, after recalling the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin in “body and soul into heavenly glory”, explains that she was “exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords (cf. Rv 19:16) and conqueror of sin and death” (Lumen gentium, n. 59).
**
In fact, starting from the fifth century, almost in the same period in which the Council of Ephesus proclaims her “Mother of God”, the title of Queen begins to be attributed to her. With this further recognition of her sublime dignity, the Christian people want to place her above all creatures, exalting her role and importance in the life of every person and of the whole world.**
But already a fragment of a homily, attributed to Origen, contains this comment on the words Elizabeth spoke at the Visitation “It is I who should have come to visit you, because you are blessed above all women, you are the Mother of my Lord, you are my Lady” (Fragment, PG 13, 1902 D). **The text passes spontaneously from the expression “the Mother of my Lord” to the title, “my Lady”, anticipating what St John Damascene was later to say, attributing to Mary the title of “Sovereign”: **“When she became Mother of the Creator, she truly became queen of all creatures” (De fide orthodoxa, 4, 14, PG94, 1157).”

This all began with popular devotion. It has nothing to do with sacred scripture. That’s the conflict.

You are mistaken, nb. This passage says nothing about the prayer cited by the OP, used by the Pope. This passage states taht we honor mary,and explains why we do so . We do see this in sacred Scripture, but it is because we read the scriptures from the point of view of Apostolic Teaching. I don’t know that it is possible for those who are separated from it, and hostile toward it, ,to “see” these things. They are spirit, and must be revealed by the Spirit.

If you don’t like the prayer, don’t use it. It is a private devotion, and it is not binding on the faithful.

 

[nbtb1348]

Are you speaking to me?

 

[nbtb1348]

You are mistaken, nb. This passage says nothing about the prayer cited by the OP, used by the Pope. This passage states taht we honor mary,and explains why we do so . We do see this in sacred Scripture, but it is because we read the scriptures from the point of view of Apostolic Teaching. I don’t know that it is possible for those who are separated from it, and hostile toward it, ,to “see” these things. They are spirit, and must be revealed by the Spirit.

If you don’t like the prayer, don’t use it. It is a private devotion, and it is not binding on the faithful.

Unfortunately you “see” with the same ability and exact same source of empowerment as Joseph Smith did when he used his “special glasses” to translate those tablets he received from the angel Moroni. That’s why you see what we don’t.

That’s why when you engage in those things I’ve described above, reserved for Christ alone, but do them with Mary, we see it for what it is, but you have on your special glasses to see things the rest of us just can’t see.

If you honored Scripture as the word of God that it is, 100% trustworthy, you would see a verse like this:

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."–Hebrews 4:15-16

…and you would know Christ has sufficient sympathy and desire to help, and that prayers to Mary of the sort we see all the time are blasphemous. But you don’t see that, because you “see” with your special RCC glasses on. You need to look to Babylon to find the source of your obsession with the Mother. It is spirit-driven, but not Holy Spirit-driven my friend.