Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Hisalone]

Pauls letters were well circulated.

 

[nbtb1348]

That is only a problem in your mind, not to the rest of us. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His people into all truth, and He did. He saw to it that the Scriptures would be completed in the Apostolic age, and they were. We have them today.

Here are a couple of passages where we see both Paul and Peter talking in the midst of this age:

"Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you."—II Tim 1:13,14

“…and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”–II Peter 3:15,16

The early Church had the Old Testament and the writings of Peter, Paul, etc, circulating among the churches. They recognized them as inspired and honored them like Scripture. When the age ended, so did the power to complete the Canon that describes the plan of God through Jesus Christ.

"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. "–Heb 1:1

"… After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."–Heb 2:1-4

It’s a no-brainer for us. If you want to know if God is still giving revelation, look for the attesting miracles of His Apostles that reveal their authority. God completed his Word and then gives this warning, which you have not heeded:

***“I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book”–Rev 22:18 ***

 

[nbtb1348]

Pauls letters were well circulated.

Read above friend, and don’t deceive yourself in thinking we have to EVER evade a single one of your questions. We simply grow weary of those who, as Paul describes, are "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."–II Tim 3:7

 

[Peter_J]

OK, thanks for that. I do find it very interesting that you guys are either afraid or unable to describe what worshipping Mary would look like.

I would say that I’m still thinking about it.

In the meantime, you might answer (or at least think about) this question: What would it look like if someone paid Mary too little honor?

 

[AshleyBelle]

I apologize for this being off topic, but a particular response has me a little confused.

The poster who suggested that Pauls letters were circulated and so the first Christians had authoritative Scripture… Do you believe this was their sole rule of faith? Do you believe they held the documents themselves as the only authoritative teaching about the gospel? In a similar fashion to the OP;

To whom would the first Christians have pointed? Paul’s circulated letters, or the apostles (the teachers of the Church)? Would the first Christians have been looking for a written manuscript before they would listen to everything? Or would they have followed the teachings and traditions of the apostles directly?

It seems much like a student who has a teacher, and rather than do the projects the teacher assigns for class or do the homework, or listen to what the teacher teaches… He simply takes his textbook and deems IT the only authority. Unfortunately, if he doesn’t attend class…doesn’t listen to his teachers “interpretation” of what the book is teaching… Doesn’t study the subjects that are “outside” of the book and still necessary for the class…doesn’t do his assignments, he runs the risk of failing.

Oh sure, he could study just his textbook and still get by…pass with a D or just barely.

Let’s say it’s a math class. The textbook doesn’t cover differential calculus…but the teacher decides to focus on this subject during a portion of the school year. Should the student protest “THAT is not in the textbook, we don’t need to learn it!” Or better yet… “THAT is not in the textbook, you are teaching CONTRARY to mathematics!” No.

The textbook is not meant to include all of mathematics past and present. It is meant to serve as a guide to help the students study for their math class. The teacher is there to help them understand not only what is in the book, but other issues the book might not explicitely cover. And the teacher acts under the authority of the school.
I think this analogy drives home the point fairly well, albeit imperfectly.

 

[ron77nyc]

The Catholic Catechism says:

“To preach. . . the unsearchable riches of Christ”

425 The transmission of the Christian faith consists primarily in proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him. From the beginning, the first disciples burned with the desire to proclaim Christ: “We cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.”'11 And they invite people of every era to enter into the joy of their communion with Christ.

I think we should get back to our roots.

ZE05113005 - 2005-11-30
Permalink: zenit.org/article-14695?l=english

Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope

Refers to St. Augustine’s Commentary on Psalm 136(137)

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.

Please correct me if I am not seeing this correctly but is this another gospel?

 

[Hisalone]

Read above friend, and don’t deceive yourself in thinking we have to EVER evade a single one of your questions. We simply grow weary of those who, as Paul describes, are "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."–II Tim 3:7

What?

 

[guanophore]

Why did Bartolo say that? Didn’t he know he could turn to God?

Of course, but he had a personal devotion to Mary as his spiritual mother.

Why did the pope quote it?

It was a commemoration of Bartolo. It is not uncommon to read the writings of others when we are commemorating their memory. For example, the children here at the elementary school recently all learned a line from one of Martin Luther King Jr’s speeches to commemorate his day.

If someone were to say “Martin Luther King Jr’ showed this nation the road to freedom” it would not necessarily mean that one did not believe Jesus is the road to freedom.

I was researching Bartolo Longo. I don’t doubt at all his sincere conversion but it is definitely a clash between scripture and tradition.

This is an absurd statement. No one’s conversion can possibly create a “clash” between scripture and tradition.

No ones private devotion can, either. What you don’t seem to
“get” is that private devotions are just that. The Rosary included, they are not part of the one divine deposit of faith given to the Apostles. They developed later, as pious practices, and are not binding on the faithful.

Having said that, I will add that there is nothing in Bartolo’s testimony that is causing a “clash” either.(except in your mind)

 

[elijio]

Well said…

Well, actually contemporary sources place the number at closer to 30,000…but hey, whats 10,000 +/- in the grander scheme of things? I agree with you… But my question would rather be " do they each and every one have their own private demon misleading them down the primrose path…"?

And unto you as well!!

The number of protestant denominations I found is in this 2005 census bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm If you scroll to the very bottom of the page, you will see a counter showing the number today is over 40,000 denominations.

Protestantism only dates back to the 1600’s and to it’s father Martin Luther. This ‘‘idea’’ of sola fide’’ faith alone or ''sola scriptura ‘‘scripture alone’’ was born out of Luther who you could say is the protestant mother since he gave birth to Protestantism.

Catholics have nothing to fear in Sacred Scripture since it was the Council of Rome who, by guidance of the Holy Spirit, put the Canon of Scripture together in 382 A.D. Since God’s Church was first called ‘‘catholic’’ in a letter by St. Irenaeus in the 1st century, that means that the 1st Christians were also referred to as Catholic and it was a bunch of Catholics who published the Bible as we have it today complete with 72 books and not 66.

Martin Luther’s King James Version 1600 also had all the original books of the Bible including a calander of all the Saints Feast Days. Sounds pretty Catholic to me.

What we see with protestants is a continuation of divisions among them that branch out into another denomination each day. Just look at the yellow pages in your area and you’ll be amazed at how many denominations there are.

The Catholic Church survived until 382 A.D. without the Bible that protestants say they follow. Well, surprise to them because Catholics believe every word of the Bible. We just don’t believe in their many different interpretations of it. The Scriptures warns us of people who try to take the meaning unto their own.

I challenge any protestant to tell me where in Catholic doctrine it says that we must worship Mary. It’s not here vatican.va/archive/index.htm

Funny how we all have a friend whose mother we honor and sometimes even call her ‘‘mom’’. But what would protestants do the day Jesus introduces HIS mother to them? Ignore her? Bash her? Tell Jesus she is nothing to them but a vessel?
Interesting…

Peace.

 

[guanophore]

I would still like someone to answer that question–What would be the signs that someone was actually worshipping Mary?

Open an new thread. It is off topic here. You might not want to post it on a Catholic Forum anyhow, since we don’t do this, you might get a better answer elsewhere.

***You have misunderstood Paul’s meaning and have as well revealed that this notion of Mary is attached to people who, though intellectually understanding the concept of redemption, have never entered into the personal experience of it. ***

This is a grossly prejudicial and bigoted statement, and therefore, clearly false.
diggingdeeper;4745445:

No one who has expereinced that salvation that is in Christ alone through faith would EVER ascribe redemptive qualities to another human.

Such a statement minimizes the great high calling in Christ to become ministers of HIs grace.

Not only that, you misunderstood what was written. It is clearly stated that all of our abilities to participate in redemption flow from Christ, who is our sole mediator.

OK, thanks for that. I do find it very interesting that you guys are either afraid or unable to describe what worshipping Mary would look like. Is it possible that you can’t answer it without incriminating yourselves? I’m dead serious.

Aside from the fact it is off topic in this thread, you are right ,it would be difficult. For Catholics, the Divine litugy of the Eucharist is the ultimate form of worship. Making Mary the center of this is such an affront to the Catholic senses that it is practically unimaginable.

.But the things you share there point to why we believe the entire notion of praying to Mary dishonors Christ and perpetuates unbelief in His promises. It is honestly a total slap in the face to what Scripture invites us to.

I can understand why it seems that way to those who reject the communion of the Saints, and God’s intention for the Church.

Yet Scripture (ah, that pesky book!) says,

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize

with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."–Hebrews 4:15-16

This is the basis upon which intercession is built. Jesus, by His grace, and His eternal priesthood, gives us access.

It is like Catholics say, “Sorry, Jesus, we need more than just you. You’re not as sympathetic and helpful as you should be. When we REALLY need mercy and grace, we need to get someone else to help us.”

This is a very carnal attitude, and I can understand why it gets projected on Catholics.

And when in your post above you talk about Mary “knowing…” My! how that sounds like SHE is the sympathetic deity you need.

the fact that God, through His spirit, allows us to be aware of the needs of others, and enables us, by His grace, to meet them, does not make us diety.

Does it even matter that these things are obviously in the face of Scripture?

Only to those such as yourself that don’t understand the Scriptures in their proper context.

I don’t think it does to the RCC, and thus the need for authority beyond God’s completed Canon.

Here lies your problem This is not a “Roman” phenomenon. In fact, all the Churches founded by the Apostles have these devotions to Mary, and some of them have no love lost on Rome.

Further, if there were no authority beyond the completed Canon, there WOULD BE NO completed canon! There is no list or index of books which belong in it. It was the authority outside the canon, given by Christ to the Church, that created that canon.

This “doctrine of demons”, to use Paul’s phrase, is exposed for what it is.

If your wish to remain on CAF, I suggest you take some time to read the forum rules. CAF is not a venue provided for you to insult the Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

Unfortunately you “see” with the same ability and exact same source of empowerment as Joseph Smith did when he used his “special glasses” to translate those tablets he received from the angel Moroni. That’s why you see what we don’t.

To an extent. Everyone interprets what they read according to their perceptions, which are influenced by experience and education (or lack of it).

Catholics are honest about our “glasses”. We admit that we interpret the Scriptures in the light of the Apostolic Teaching that has been handed down to us.

That’s why when you engage in those things I’ve described above, reserved for Christ alone, but do them with Mary, we see it for what it is, but you have on your special glasses to see things the rest of us just can’t see.

Yes, this is true. Since most Protesatnts have no clue what it means to worship in “spirit and in truth”, they confuse other types of interaction as “worship” that are not. Supplication and praise are not necessarily worship. If I praise my son for having a great soccer game, lift him up and put him on my shoulder, and parade him around as the most valuable player, I am not worshipping him.

When Catholics do similar things about Mary, it is misunderstood as “worship” because Protestants don’t understand that Catholic worship centers around the Divine Liturgy of the Eucharist.

If you honored Scripture as the word of God that it is, 100% trustworthy, you would see a verse like this:

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."–Hebrews 4:15-16

…and you would know Christ has sufficient sympathy and desire to help, and that prayers to Mary of the sort we see all the time are blasphemous. But you don’t see that, because you “see” with your special RCC glasses on. You need to look to Babylon to find the source of your obsession with the Mother. It is spirit-driven, but not Holy Spirit-driven my friend.

nb, I have tried to be patient with your insults, and I will strive to continue. But frankly, you are not in a position to judge what I “see” in scripture, or the attitude of my heart toward God. Your hatefulness notwithstanding, your judgement of my faith is not welcome.

Further, the veneration of Mary, as I have told you several times now, and you seem to choose to ignore, is not “Roman”. Neither am I, and though I cherish my expression of the Catholic faith that is not Roman, I find your comments about the Latin Rite insulting to my Latin brethren, as well as to our Lord.

I will encourage you, if you have reason to remain in CAF, that you visit the forum rules, where you will find that you are welcome to dialogue here, but it is required that you respect our faith, and refrain from such insults.

 

[Peter_J]

It is like Catholics say, “Sorry, Jesus, we need more than just you. You’re not as sympathetic and helpful as you should be. When we REALLY need mercy and grace, we need to get someone else to help us.”

I haven’t had your experiences (obviously); but based on my own experiences, I would say that the attitude you’re describing (assuming it exists at all) is very rare.

 

[guanophore]

That is only a problem in your mind, not to the rest of us. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His people into all truth, and He did. He saw to it that the Scriptures would be completed in the Apostolic age, and they were. We have them today.

Well, yes, and the reason you do is because the Catholic Church protected, copied, distributed, compiled ratified and promulgated them. They were never intended to be separated from the Sacred Tradition which produced them.

Here are a couple of passages where we see both Paul and Peter talking in the midst of this age:

"Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you."—II Tim 1:13,14

I am glad you brought this verse. It is a reference to the Sacred Tradition that had been entrusted to the Church through the Apostolic succession. That “sound pattern” is Christ living through his saints. Never was this pattern to be separated from the Holy Writings which testify to it.

Further, the apostolic instruction to follow adn retain it has been continually kept by the Church.

“…and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”–II Peter 3:15,16

Did you think it was on ly the NT that got twisted?

The early Church had the Old Testament and the writings of Peter, Paul, etc, circulating among the churches. They recognized them as inspired and honored them like Scripture. When the age ended, so did the power to complete the Canon that describes the plan of God through Jesus Christ.

REally? Where is that written in your bible? And if this is true, why did the power to complete the canon act almost 300 years after the Apostles? If what you say is true, then you have to reject the Bible.

"1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. "–Heb 1:1

Did you think that God’s Son abandoned the Church, after the canon was formed?

God completed his Word and then gives this warning, which you have not heeded:

***“I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book”–Rev 22:18 ***

This warning was written for the book of Revelation only. It does not apply to the rest of the Bible, however, the Church teaches that the public revelation of God ended with the death of the last Apostle.

Scripture was never intended to contain all the faith practices of the Church.

 

[Non_Serviam]

To an extent. Everyone interprets what they read according to their perceptions, which are influenced by experience and education (or lack of it).

Catholics are honest about our “glasses”. We admit that we interpret the Scriptures in the light of the Apostolic Teaching that has been handed down to us.

Let me give those lenses a wipe, guanophore, and help clarify that you interpret the Scriptures in the light of what the Catholic Magisterium says is the Apostolic Teaching, since the Apostles aren’t physically teaching it on earth these days, having a pressing engagement elsewhere.

That brings things into a bit sharper focus.

 

[nbtb1348]

To an extent. Everyone interprets what they read according to their perceptions, which are influenced by experience and education (or lack of it).

Catholics are honest about our “glasses”. We admit that we interpret the Scriptures in the light of the Apostolic Teaching that has been handed down to us.

Yes, this is true. Since most Protesatnts have no clue what it means to worship in “spirit and in truth”, they confuse other types of interaction as “worship” that are not. Supplication and praise are not necessarily worship. If I praise my son for having a great soccer game, lift him up and put him on my shoulder, and parade him around as the most valuable player, I am not worshipping him.

When Catholics do similar things about Mary, it is misunderstood as “worship” because Protestants don’t understand that Catholic worship centers around the Divine Liturgy of the Eucharist.

nb, I have tried to be patient with your insults, and I will strive to continue. But frankly, you are not in a position to judge what I “see” in scripture, or the attitude of my heart toward God. Your hatefulness notwithstanding, your judgement of my faith is not welcome.

Further, the veneration of Mary, as I have told you several times now, and you seem to choose to ignore, is not “Roman”. Neither am I, and though I cherish my expression of the Catholic faith that is not Roman, I find your comments about the Latin Rite insulting to my Latin brethren, as well as to our Lord.

I will encourage you, if you have reason to remain in CAF, that you visit the forum rules, where you will find that you are welcome to dialogue here, but it is required that you respect our faith, and refrain from such insults.

I don’t have to ‘judge’ what you see in Scripture; you reveal it over and over. As for remaining in CAF, it is not important to me. I cannot continue much longer to cast the pearls at your feet. I have seen enough to know I am dealing with the same deceiving spirits I deal with when I try to explain Scripture to a Jehovah’s Witness or a Mormon. No, not exactly the same, for there are millions of deceiving spirits, and those are reserved for those two cults. You have your own legion that keeps you blind to the things that the Christian world sees as plain as the nose on their face. I feel so sorry for you and your children. The majority of the growth of the RCC is by babies being born into it rather than by true conversion like we see in Acts. Little wonder. “The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.” I pray that some day when you are removed from the emotions of this and other similar exchanges, you will come to know what it is to be born again. He will show you because of his grace, no matter how dark your sins have been.

 

[Non_Serviam]

Thank you-I needed a good laugh right about now.

 

[ron77nyc]

It is like Catholics say, “Sorry, Jesus, we need more than just you. You’re not as sympathetic and helpful as you should be. When we REALLY need mercy and grace, we need to get someone else to help us.”

I haven’t had your experiences (obviously); but based on my own experiences, I would say that the attitude you’re describing (assuming it exists at all) is very rare.

The angry Christ and compassionate Mary came from the Middle Ages and persisted for centuries. Take a look at this. The Hand of God art.
dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_3/Farrell.htm

 

[nbtb1348]

I would say that I’m still thinking about it.

In the meantime, you might answer (or at least think about) this question: What would it look like if someone paid Mary too little honor?

Show me one verse where we are commanded to honor Mary.

 

[nbtb1348]

Open an new thread. It is off topic here. You might not want to post it on a Catholic Forum anyhow, since we don’t do this, you might get a better answer elsewhere.

I think I smell a rat.

 

[nbtb1348]

It ought to, but it was not meant for evil my friend, but for good. Read the prophets.