Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[hays1122]

They would direct him to Jesus. Jesus is the son of God.
He was the one that ministered to them.
He was performing miracles.
Jesus was the one crucified.
Jesus is the one we wait for because he is coming again.
Jesus said,“No one comes to the Father but by me.”
I am sticking to that like white on rice!

 

[Leeann]

Dear Leeann:

I know that I will feel some ‘backlash’–or maybe not, since people love to answer questions not asked of them but prefer to follow their own agenda. You may repost your question untill Christ Himself arrives for the 2nd coming; I dare say you will not get salient–to the point -direct answers! YES WE UNDERSTAND THE WONDERFUL TRADITION TO OUR HOLY MOTHER–but nobody wishes to address the inherent dangers of others not understanding when we take ‘leaps’ as is inherent in the question you pose. God bless you & all who have posted but there is no more of a fruitless task than to debate with others who answer their own question rather than address the one that has been proposed.

God Bless the Roman Catholic Church & all who are united with it!

Thanks Emil3 for your participation on this thread. Your postings indicate that you seem to have grasped the whole concept of the “question” and have responded candidly and honestly, which to me, exhibits the depth of your faith and confidence in God and to the priority of His presence in your spiritual life.

May He continue to bless and use you in your walk with Him.

 

[rinnie]

I’m seeing a lot of self-congratulation on this thread by a number of Catholics for “answering” the question, but I still don’t see any quotes posted to show the Apostles would have done this.

The church of “The Apostles Might Have Said That” seems to be gaining a lot of members from the Catholic ranks.

If you have quotes from the first couple of centuries of church history that show the Apostles praying to Mary or dead saints or encouraging such prayer, post them. If not, the congratulations are somewhat premature methinks.

Well then you must not be paying attention. Who do you believe the Pope is. Is he not an Apostle hand picked given the Power of the Holy Spirit right down from Christ himself. Or do you deny the words of Jesus Christ when he gave the apostles the Power and the apostles handed down the power down to this very day?

 

[Non_Serviam]

Well then you must not be paying attention. Who do you believe the Pope is. Is he not an Apostle hand picked given the Power of the Holy Spirit right down from Christ himself. Or do you deny the words of Jesus Christ when he gave the apostles the Power and the apostles handed down the power down to this very day?

I believe the Pope is a man who fulfills the role of Bishop of Rome in the Catholic church.

As a point of clarification, I don’t believe the catechism, or the Pope himself uses the title Apostle, as they believe that to be reserved to the 12:

860 In the office of the apostles there is one aspect that cannot be transmitted: to be the chosen witnesses of the Lord’s Resurrection and so the foundation stones of the Church. But their office also has a permanent aspect. Christ promised to remain with them always. The divine mission entrusted by Jesus to them “will continue to the end of time, since the Gospel they handed on is the lasting source of all life for the Church. Therefore, . . . the apostles took care to appoint successors.”

I believe the preferred title is successor of the Apostles or successor of Peter.

It is imprecision of this type that I feel led to so many current practices and wordings that don’t line up with what we see in the early New Testament and extrabiblical texts.

If on the other hand, you are referring to the charism of infallibility, I don’t think the Pope would have claimed to have been speaking infallibly on this occasion.

Now if we can get back to the question from the OP-I still believe based on the documented writings and sermons that we have of the Apostles that they would point people to pray to God the Father via Jesus. Do you have an Apostolic citation that shows them doing something else?

 

[Non_Serviam]

Non Servian, when I was studying my way back to catholicism, there was no internet, so I borrowed books in the library or when I can afford a book, I bought them. But most of what I know, I copied from the books I borrowed. But sorry I am a poor researcher that I didn’t bother to copy the title of the book. But this is what I wrote down on my surviving notes;

This inscription writen down on a marble slab that sealed off the emains of the martyr Sabbatius buried in the catacomb of Saints Gordian and Epimachus.

SABBATI DVLCIS ANIMA PETE ET ROGA PRO FRATERS ET SODALES TVOS

‘O Sabbatius,sweet soul, ask and pray for your brothers and companions’

Thank you, at least I can search on the names in the quote and see what sorts of references I can find-much appreciated.

 

[Peter_J]

If there’s something more to your distinction that I’m not seeing, please excuse me for not grasping it.

No, I think you got it alright.

I sense you’re trying to find common ground here

What do you think I am, some kind of ecumenist?!

Peter,

I noted your distinction when you first posted it-what I haven’t seen since is a text that shows an Apostle asking for prayers from a dead saint or recommending that others ask a dead saint for prayers. Show me a quote with the word "ask’ in it instead of “pray” that meets my above criteria and I’ll give it consideration.

Well, let’s suppose for the sake of argument that all doctrines are contained (explicitly or implicitly) in the Scriptures. (Some Catholics would agree with that, some Catholics wouldn’t. But let’s just suppose for the sake of discussion that it is right.) Liturgical practices, however, are another matter. Naturally, new believers would learn from what older believers are doing – there’d be no need to write down all details of liturgical practice.

With that in mind, I’d say that the historical evidence for “asking Mary and the saints in heaven to pray for us” (considering it as a practice mind you, not as a doctrine) is very strong. The only way to deny it, it seems to me, would be to conjecture some kind of “great apostasy” engulfing the early Church.

Perhaps most telling is the fact that various conflicts did arise in the early Church, involving especially Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria, but there was never an asking-the-saints-for-prayers controversy.

(I think it goes without saying that the bible does contain the doctrinal foundation for “asking the saints in heaven to pray for us” – in particular, the fact that the saints in heaven do pray.)

 

[Non_Serviam]

This is really very simple. The Apostles prayed for others:

2 Cor 13:8-9
9 For we rejoice when we are weak and you are strong. This is what we pray for, that you may become perfect.

The Apostles believed that those who were in Christ would never die.

John 6:58-59
But the one who eats this bread will live forever."

The Apostles believed in the communion of saints, that we are all members of One Body, and that everything one person does affects all the others.

1 Cor 12:26
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it.

Col 2:4-5
5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

The Apostles believed and taught that being separated from the body (through physical death) meant being with God in the Spirit.

2 Cor 5:8-10
8 Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.

For them, there was no separation or distinction between asking the prayers of saints who are still here, and those who had gone to be with the Lord.

What evidence can you show that the Apostles would STOP praying for the Church after they left the body?

Guanophore,

If you like this sort of “proof-text” hopscotch, then Believers has a version that you’ll really enjoy:

Believers:

Jesus = Living Bread = Flesh (Jn 6:51)
Flesh = Meat (Jn 6:55)
Meat = Work of God (Jn 6:27, 4:34)
Work of God = Believe on Jesus (Jn 6:28-29)
Believe on Jesus = Have everlasting life (Jn 6:40)

(I’m guessing you don’t find this interpretation as convincing-even if it is more textually coherent than the one you provided, coming entirely from John and almost all from the same chapter)

There have also been a number of humourous attempts on the Internet to make the Bible “teach” rather bizarre lessons, using the same interpretive method.

As to your last question, I repeat, yet again, that I believe the saints in heaven pray, and I repeat my caveat in hopes that I might get a more direct answer for it:

Can you show me an example of the Apostles praying to a dead saint or instructing one or more believers to pray to a dead saint?

 

[Non_Serviam]

Well, let’s suppose for the sake of argument that all doctrines are contained (explicitly or implicitly) in the Scriptures. (Some Catholics would agree with that, some Catholics wouldn’t. But let’s just suppose for the sake of discussion that it is right.) Liturgical practices, however, are another matter. Naturally, new believers would learn from what older believers are doing – there’d be no need to write down all details of liturgical practice.

With that in mind, I’d say that the historical evidence for “asking Mary and the saints in heaven to pray for us” (considering it as a practice mind you, not as a doctrine) is very strong. The only way to deny it, it seems to me, would be to conjecture some kind of “great apostasy” engulfing the early Church.

Perhaps most telling is the fact that various conflicts did arise in the early Church, involving especially Rome, Constantinople, and Alexandria, but there was never an asking-the-saints-for-prayers controversy.

(I think it goes without saying that the bible does contain the doctrinal foundation for “asking the saints in heaven to pray for us” – in particular, the fact that the saints in heaven do pray.)

I think we’re getting somewhere here-it’s nice to see our difference framed more precisely. I acknowledge that a Catholic who accepts development of doctrine and the authority of the Magisterium has ample reason to pray to dead saints. It appears we agree on that. Likewise if you start from a point of believing this practice is correct, one can find “circumstantial evidence” in Scripture that at a minimum doesn’t contradict the practice.

It’s the step of jumping from this position to “the Apostles did/taught this” that I’m not willing to let slide. With the exception of the Roman inscriptions, there doesn’t appear to be any documentary support linking the practice to the Apostles. I asked about early liturgy on this thread or another, and was told that praying to saints is a private devotional and thus wouldn’t appear in liturgical works, so I didn’t pursue that line in this part of the discussion.

I’m willing to consider early historical evidence-I’ve said so before-all I’d like to see is something early and something linking the practice to the Apostles. The early ECF’s were always happy to credit the Apostle’s in their writings for insights and practices, so if the Apostles did practice this, it should be simple to provide a reference. Cyril of Jerusalem in 350AD seems to be the first solid citation of this being a regular practice among believers-it being part of his catechetical lectures. There’s no pedigree attached to the belief her, but it does show it has been institutionalized at that point.

Thoughts?

 

[rinnie]

I believe the Pope is a man who fulfills the role of Bishop of Rome in the Catholic church.

As a point of clarification, I don’t believe the catechism, or the Pope himself uses the title Apostle, as they believe that to be reserved to the 12:

I believe the preferred title is successor of the Apostles or successor of Peter.

It is imprecision of this type that I feel led to so many current practices and wordings that don’t line up with what we see in the early New Testament and extrabiblical texts.

If on the other hand, you are referring to the charism of infallibility, I don’t think the Pope would have claimed to have been speaking infallibly on this occasion.

Now if we can get back to the question from the OP-I still believe based on the documented writings and sermons that we have of the Apostles that they would point people to pray to God the Father via Jesus. Do you have an Apostolic citation that shows them doing something else?

Thats okay, but I see him as an apostle. I don’t see any difference. Let me explain When Jesus gave the Apostles the power of the HS, think about this 0kay. He said what my Father has given me I now give to you. ( no more no less) Now what I see in those words are this, If I give you the power I have, then you have the same Power to pass it on. Now in my eyes if I don’t believe that, and the Pope hasn’t the Power of the Holy Spirit, then the Apostles could not have either. Now the way I see it, if your believe what Jesus said, and he did indeed have that power, then he did indeed pass it on, then it does indeed exist today. Because Jesus promised us the advocate the HS remember. He said he would not leave us orphans. Now if the Pope does not still have the power of the HS we are orphans. ANd then again Jesus lied to us. See what I mean. Again not condemming you, just showing you why I believe what I do. And how I do. Hope it helps.

 

[Peter_J]

It’s the step of jumping from this position to “the Apostles did/taught this” that I’m not willing to let slide.

Do we know that Apostles prayed to the saints? That’s a good question …

 

[Peter_J]

Thoughts?

Yes …

First, to repeat a part of the Summa Theologica that I quoted earlier,

Reply to Objection 3: Those who are in this world or in Purgatory, do not yet enjoy the vision of the Word, so as to be able to know what we think or say. Wherefore we do not seek their assistance by praying to them, but ask it of the living by speaking to them.

So, paraphrasing, Aquinas’ taught that:

(A) We pray to the saints and angels in heaven with words like “St. so-and-so, pray for us.”
(B) We do not pray to the souls in purgatory.
(C) We do ask our brothers and sisters on earth “Please pray for me” but this is not praying to them.

That’s what Aquinas’ taught, but there are a lot of Catholics who disagree with (B). (My own family is one example. When I was growing up, we often included “Holy souls in purgatory … pray for us”, along with various “St. so-and-so … pray for us” at the conclusion of our family rosary. It never occurred to me, until much later, that some theologians might object to idea of praying to the souls in purgatory.)

Furthermore (and more to the point) there are also some Catholics who disagree with Aquinas regarding (C). I.e. there are some Catholics who would say that when I ask my brother or sister on earth “Please pray for me”, I am in fact praying to him or her. This (minority?) opinion is quite significant to our discussion, because it would follow then that we do know that St. Paul “prayed to the saints” – we just don’t know whether he prayed to the saints in heaven, or whether he only prayed to the saints on earth.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I’m seeing a lot of self-congratulation on this thread by a number of Catholics for “answering” the question, but I still don’t see any quotes posted to show the Apostles would have done this.

I can’t believe you made this post at this point, so I’m gonna have to digress.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Do we know that Apostles prayed to the saints? That’s a good question …

We know they prayed to living saints by asking them for intercession. We have no indication they refused to do this once one is in heaven. We have much evidence to the contrary as I showed earlier with Peter speaking to the dead Tabitha, and OT examples of asking angels for intercession.

 

[Peter_J]

Sweet.

Furthermore (and more to the point) there are also some Catholics who disagree with Aquinas regarding (C). I.e. there are some Catholics who would say that when I ask my brother or sister on earth “Please pray for me”, I am in fact praying to him or her. This (minority?) opinion is quite significant to our discussion, because it would follow then that we do know that St. Paul “prayed to the saints” – we just don’t know whether he prayed to the saints in heaven, or whether he only prayed to the saints on earth.

We know they prayed to living saints by asking them for intercession.

(It probably goes without saying … but since a lot of Protestants have a lot of misconceptions about Catholics, I’ll say it just in case: there’s nothing terribly unusual about the fact that MarcoPolo disagrees with Aquinas on this point. We Catholics don’t just automatically believe something just because St. Thomas Aquinas believed it, or because St. Augustine believed it, or because St. Jerome believed it, etc.)

 

[rinnie]

Sweet.

(It probably goes without saying … but since a lot of Protestants have a lot of misconceptions about Catholics, I’ll say it just in case: there’s nothing terribly unusual about the fact that MarcoPolo disagrees with Aquinas on this point. We Catholics don’t just automatically believe something just because St. Thomas Aquinas believed it, or because St. Augustine believed it, or because St. Jerome believed it, etc.)

Nope we believe it because its the teaching of the Church. And If you believe that your Church has the fullness of the Truth, and nothing that your church teaches disagrees with the bible you can be sure you have the right Church! What I love about my faith is it always comes out in the true light. I may not be able to always defend it as good as I should, but it can always be defended! And if there is an answer if will be found in the RCC! We got it all.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - “*we will not ****know to whom to turn”… *my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Dear Leeann;

I believe that if Paul, or any of the other Apostles, had been standing next to Benedict XVI, they would have understood the comment in the context in which it was uttered. And having also been present for the mass and homily that preceded the litany, I am sure that they would have no fear in stating that Benedict’s faith was firmly grounded in Jesus Christ, who Mary bore and brought into this world. His homily implores us to learn of Jesus at the feet of Mary his mother. He is not limiting our access to Christ, nor is he somehow restricting us to Christ through Mary, but, as is true with all Marian devotion, he is acknowledging the opportunity to deepen a relationship to Jesus by seeing Him through the eyes of His own human mother.

I think that questions like yours can only be addressed by exposing the faulty premise upon which it is built. Your question presumes, by giving a literalistic interpretation to the litany, that Pope Benedict XVI does not know enough to turn to Christ. I’m afraid that your presumption does not withstand honest scrutiny. His faith is clear even if you simply read the text of his homily delivered on the date referenced in the article, to those present in Pompeii for the Litany… here. Certainly, his other writings clearly manifest his Christ-centered faith. Deus Caritas Est is another writing of Benedict, showing his clear and Christ-centered faith. I’m sure that any Apostle standing next to him in Pompeii would also have taken that encyclical letter into consideration. Don’t you think?

A fair understanding of this man’s theology as seen in his writings makes it crystal clear that his faith is centered on a real relationship with Jesus Christ. Marian devotion, contrary to the implication inherent in the OP, does nothing to diminish that Christ-centered faith. Rather, it deepens that relationship with Christ. What I suggest you do, Leeann, is try to develop a better understanding of what Catholics believe when it comes to Marian devotion.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

It’s the step of jumping from this position to “the Apostles did/taught this” that I’m not willing to let slide. With the exception of the Roman inscriptions, there doesn’t appear to be any documentary support linking the practice to the Apostles. I asked about early liturgy on this thread or another, and was told that praying to saints is a private devotional and thus wouldn’t appear in liturgical works, so I didn’t pursue that line in this part of the discussion.

…Thoughts?

I think this is a fair argument only if you are willing to apply it consistently throughout your theology. Nowhere in scripture or history do we have evidence that the Apsotles taught the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet most protestants accept the notion without question. The same is true regarding the nature of Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Trinity, One Person with both a human nature and a divine nature. But the reality is that these doctrines developed over a long period of time that exceeded the livetimes of the Apostles. So, from a Catholic perspective, it is consistent to see the development of the doctrine of the community of saints, with roots in scripture and tradition, coming to this age from the deposit of faith.

Are you willing to apply this argument consistently? If so, you can start throwing out not just the community of the saints, but the Trinity. The Hypostatic union, and other common christian doctrines I am sure.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[MarcoPolo]

MarcoPolo disagrees with Aquinas on this point.

I’m confused. What point are you saying I disagree with Aquinas on?

 

[Non_Serviam]

Do we know that Apostles prayed to the saints? That’s a good question …

If it wasn’t an Apostolic practice, then they wouldn’t be likely to commend it to the Pope, per the OP’s original question.

 

[Non_Serviam]

Yes …

First, to repeat a part of the Summa Theologica that I quoted earlier,

So, paraphrasing, Aquinas’ taught that:

(A) We pray to the saints and angels in heaven with words like “St. so-and-so, pray for us.”
(B) We do not pray to the souls in purgatory.
(C) We do ask our brothers and sisters on earth “Please pray for me” but this is not praying to them.

That’s what Aquinas’ taught, but there are a lot of Catholics who disagree with (B). (My own family is one example. When I was growing up, we often included “Holy souls in purgatory … pray for us”, along with various “St. so-and-so … pray for us” at the conclusion of our family rosary. It never occurred to me, until much later, that some theologians might object to idea of praying to the souls in purgatory.)

Furthermore (and more to the point) there are also some Catholics who disagree with Aquinas regarding (C). I.e. there are some Catholics who would say that when I ask my brother or sister on earth “Please pray for me”, I am in fact praying to him or her. This (minority?) opinion is quite significant to our discussion, because it would follow then that we do know that St. Paul “prayed to the saints” – we just don’t know whether he prayed to the saints in heaven, or whether he only prayed to the saints on earth.

Well, Aquinas is quite a while after the Apostles, but some of these ideas you are floating around are interesting. Of course, taking them a step further, one could say that when the Priest says to the congregation “We pray to the Lord” that he is praying to the saints. That idea might cause more objections than the “minority opinions” you are suggesting.

I also appreciate that you are acknowledging that Paul’s normal use of the term “saint” was to refer to members of earthly congregations to whom he was writing. There’s an example of how the Apostolic practice was changed over time by the Catholic church. I understand the rationale for it, it just makes me wince when some Catholics try to read back the current definition of “saint” into the Epistles to suggest that Paul is only referring to those who have died in the congregation. Fortunately they are also in the minority.

As for the “Holy souls in Purgatory” I have extended family members who pray the same thing-and other extended family members who develop a tic when they do so.