Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[theistgal]

*It is easy for those who are desparately wanting and who have come from environments that are toxic or dysfunctional *to be able to believe and cling onto a theology that offers the notion that “mother” – the mother of God, is there and will never turn them away……even if Jesus/God does?

Once again - just as at the very beginning of this thread - you are insisting that it is possible for Mary and Jesus to be at odds. That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Leeann]

Once again - just as at the very beginning of this thread - you are insisting that it is possible for Mary and Jesus to be at odds. That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I don’t believe I’ve ever “insisted” that they are “at odds” with one another, either at the beginning of this thread or elsewhere.

The thread topic question is:

“In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?”

 

[jlhargus]

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **

JL: I suppose it would depend on weather you just wanted a one time request, or someone who will keep your request before the King, when you are not able. Jesus is the Son of David and our King in David’s line, in the new regenerated spiritual Davidic Kingdom. Mary is therefore Gebirah (Queen Mother). From Solomon the son of David and king in David’s line there was an office of Gebirah

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The apostles (the earliest of Christians, and thus the earliest of Catholics) taught the Catholic teaching we still hold and teach today.

The apostles would never have dreamed of a time in which men (or women) would have gone so far away from their teachings that they would even consider it possible to ‘pit’ Mary against Jesus.

They would be stunned that some people seem to think that ‘prayer’ is something narrow and directed to God alone. . .since they and the earliest Christians prayed to the martyrs and other early saints themselves.

They would be stunned to realize that in going so far from authentic Catholic Christian teaching, some ‘well-intentioned’ individuals would think that prayer to the Mother of God (the same woman scripture tells us is to be called ever-blessed) somehow ‘separates’ that Mother from her Son. That prayer to Mary ‘takes away’ the focus from Jesus! Such ‘modern’ and erroneous thinking simply emphasizes how far many Protestants have gone from “the Body of Christ” in their ‘private interpretation’ of Christian teaching.

So to the apostles there would have been no idea that --oh horror of horrors- prayer to Mary would be ‘instead’ of prayer to Jesus.

To the apostles, prayer to Mary was as natural as prayer to any other saint or prayer to any other ‘believer’- it was not ‘oppositional’ to prayer to Jesus but instead was considered to have Jesus/Father/Spirit as the ultimate ‘end’.

Catholics (following the apostles) like to keep all the members of the body of Christ --those on earth and those in heaven --united to each other in Christ through prayer.

Apparently it’s not LeeAnn’s idea of what to do–but then again as a Christian I’m following Christ, and not what one woman–no matter how nice or well-intentioned she may be–has decided is the right thing to do.

 

[David47]

Once again - just as at the very beginning of this thread - you are insisting that it is possible for Mary and Jesus to be at odds. That is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

It is not the teaching of any Christian church and I don’t see anyone putting Jesus and Mary at odds with one another here. However how you read it is another thing. There is only ONE intermediary and that is Christ our Lord. I am sure that Mary is with Jesus but not as mother and son as they were on earth. I am not diminshing what Mary did her on earth in anyway but there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus and no one else.

 

[Leeann]

The apostles (the earliest of Christians, and thus the earliest of Catholics) taught the Catholic teaching we still hold and teach today.

The apostles would never have dreamed of a time in which men (or women) would have gone so far away from their teachings that they would even consider it possible to ‘pit’ Mary against Jesus.

Oh my Tantum….is this what the Catholic Church’s teachings have got you trying to do now?

They would be stunned that some people seem to think that ‘prayer’ is something narrow and directed to God alone. . .since they and the earliest Christians prayed to the martyrs and other early saints themselves.

Yes…it brings to mind all of the Apostle’s prayers that they themselves were taught and encouraged by Jesus to pray and to pass on to those early believers when He commissioned them and sent them out…uh…ummm….…….let’s see……uh…well…er…ummm……well there was the way Jesus Himself taught them(us) to pray - “Our Father….no that wouldn’t be it……

They would be stunned to realize that in going so far from authentic Catholic Christian teaching, some ‘well-intentioned’ individuals would think that prayer to the Mother of God (the same woman scripture tells us is to be called ever-blessed) somehow ‘separates’ that Mother from her Son. That prayer to Mary ‘takes away’ the focus from Jesus!

They would be flabbergasted no doubt! And regret ever having mentioned at all that Jesus was(is) the One that is able, willing and desiring that we go to Him….boldy….with all our concerns.

Such ‘modern’ and erroneous thinking simply emphasizes how far many Protestants have gone from “the Body of Christ” in their ‘private interpretation’ of Christian teaching.

Imagine that! Gone from “the Body of Christ”!

You are imagining all this aren’t you………….I thought so.

So to the apostles there would have been no idea that --oh horror of horrors- prayer to Mary would be ‘instead’ of prayer to Jesus.

Of course not! And that is why the Apostles encouraged and taught this and preached about Mary and how they prayed to/through her (depending on when/if she died) and why Jesus Himself made sure to mention this constantly, as is indicated in His Gospel message and throughout all the gospel books and later in all letters that the Apostles wrote to the very, early new believers, because this was pretty important information…and couldn’t have just been “left out” to be passed on later…those believers had to be made known about it….that’s quite clear all throughout the N.T….you can barely turn a page or read any comment made by the Apostles or Jesus without hearing Mary’s name being mentioned and they were constantly exhorting the believers to “ go to Mary….or Jesus….doesn’t really matter…”

To the apostles, prayer to Mary was as natural as prayer to any other saint or prayer to any other ‘believer’- it was not ‘oppositional’ to prayer to Jesus but instead was considered to have Jesus/Father/Spirit as the ultimate ‘end’.

Are we still in “imaginery land”….? And they all lived happily ever after. The End.

Catholics (following the apostles) like to keep all the members of the body of Christ --those on earth and those in heaven --united to each other in Christ through prayer.

Apparently it’s not LeeAnn’s idea of what to do–but then again as a Christian I’m following Christ, and not what one woman–no matter how nice or well-intentioned she may be–has decided is the right thing to do.

Tantum, that was beautiful, especially your last paragraph, stated in the spirit of a true Catholic Christian?
Reminds me of one of Jesus’ own parables – in Luke 18 – the one about the Pharisee and the tax collector going up to the temple to pray. Guess which one brings you to mind…and I mean that sincerely in the “nicest, well-intentioned” way.

 

[Leeann]

JL: I suppose it would depend on weather you just wanted a one time request, or someone who will keep your request before the King, when you are not able. Jesus is the Son of David and our King in David’s line, in the new regenerated spiritual Davidic Kingdom. Mary is therefore Gebirah (Queen Mother). From Solomon the son of David and king in David’s line there was an office of Gebirah

Hi jlhargus - I appreciate you posting. Thanks for this information.

 

[guanophore]

The words speak for themselves.

Indeed, this is a good point. We all understand “words” from the point of view of our own perceptions. These are influenced by our own experiences and education (or lack of it). What these words “speak for themselves” to you comes through your filters.

To those of us that are Catholic, they sound very different, because we understand worship differently.

 If you understand this to be what she is saying to you, then why not do what she says and do what **He** tells you and what the Apostles told/tell us…which is to go to HIM.

Here is a good example of our difference of perspective. Catholics “go to” and are united to Christ most perfectly in Eucharist. This, for us, is our “worship in spirit and in truth”. This prayer, taking place outside of what we consider “worship” is extraneous. To understand this prayer, one must hear it through the Pope’s faith and practice of worship in spirit and in Truth, all of which is centered in Christ. Since you do not understand or accept this form of worship, it will not be possible for you to have an appropriate framework or understanding of this prayer.

 You state that “they are not mutually exclusive”…meaning Jesus and Mary….this is what the Catholic Church teaches, however this is not what the Apostles ever made reference too when they advised people to whom to go to in time of trouble, in time of need…they advised and exhorted people to go directly to Jesus/God.

You seem to presume that asking other Godly people to pray for us interferes with going to God.

Why did Simon ask Peter for prayer?

Acts 8:24
24 Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may happen to me.”

The gift of intercession does not “subtract” from God. It glorifies HIm.

James 5:16-18
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest.
Leeann;4672054:

HE is above all things created and always will be.

Of course! This is Catholic Teaching.

Whatever Mary desires, is irrelevant…the point is, is that HE is able and willing and desiring that we go to HIM….that is HIS will.

Jesus did not seem to think it was irrelevant.

Luke 2:51-52
51 Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.

He was obedient to her. How is it that the God of the universe was willing to subject Himself to human parents? Could it be possible that God would allow them to have authority over HIm, yet fail to preserve them from sin?

We can see at the wedding in Cana that Jesus was even willing to perform miracles for His mother that would even make a party more festive, just because she asked Him.

You seem to have a warped perception of the saved. Those who are glorified in Christ are hidden with Him in God. Their thoughts and wills are perfectly conformed to His image. Those who have been perfected can no longer be touched by sin, and all they want is the fullness of His glory here on earth. That is why their prayers are entirely relevant.

Col 3:1-4
2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, 3 for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory.

What “promise to humanity” of God’s are you referring too here?
As far as I am aware, Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to humanity…our hope.

Indeed He is. He has manifested this promise in those whom He has perfected already. Those whom He has glorified reflect His promises.

As Paul writes in Colossians 1 – V 27-28
23** if ye continue **in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This reference in Col is about the saints that are still here on earth working out their salvation. I am speaking of those who have already been glorified.

Rev 19:6-8

6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready;
8 to her it has been granted to be clothed
with fine linen, bright and pure” — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

There is a great multitude that have already been perfected. Their wills are perfectly confromed to His will.

 

[guanophore]

No.

What is not to like?

I’m not sure I understand your question???

Please read what I wrote meditatively. Close your eyes, and imagine what I wrote about. Can you see it?

Yes, I believe there is a lot of truth in what you’ve stated here, I’ve seen you make this comment before.

I also think that it works the other way around ….*those people, with unresolved trust issues with their earthly mothers *– or lack of a positive female relationship in their lives -have a desperate need to believe in what the Catholic Church has taught about Mary - the absolute perfection – the “protection” - thereby deriving the comfort and solace that they may never have experienced from an ‘earthly mother/woman’ - attempting to fill a void within themselves.

Actually, it is not another “way around”. It is a way “through”. Jesus came to us “through” Mary. He chose to enter the world through a woman. He chose to be an infant at her breast, and a toddler on her lap. This experience is part of what it means to be fully human. Granted, many of us have had less than a healthy experience of this, but God by His grace enabled Mary to provide this mothering to His Son without flaw. He then gave this great gift of flawless mothering to all of us in order to help us become more whole and complete as human beings.
Leeann;4672064:

*It is easy for those who are desparately wanting and who have come from environments that are toxic or dysfunctional *

to be able to believe and cling onto a theology that offers the notion that “mother” – the mother of God, is there and will never turn them away……even if Jesus/God does?

I am not so sure this is “easy”. In fact, I think some of those who have had the most problem with their mothers have the most difficult time.

You are back to your false dichotomy. The mother of God never turns away those who are in her Son because we are all one Body, one Spirit in Christ. There is no separation between Mary and those that are part of her Son. She receives all of us as she receives HIm.

Rev 12:17
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

All who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus are her children. Those who have turned away Christ have turned her away also.

“With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

This prayer was made after the Mass, Leeann. The perfect prayer to Jesus had already been made. Now, he is asking for the intercession of other persons.

1 Thess 3:10
10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you face to face and restore whatever is lacking in your faith.

Why does Paul pray night and day? Is Jesus not enough?

Do you imagine that Paul thinks God has no other way to build up the faith besides himself?

 

[Leeann]

guanophore…I’m sorry, but this is one “messy” posting job…I thought that **I **was the one that was supposed to be having difficulties working the quote function…but I have attempted to respond…between all the chopping and everything…let’s see how it goes:shrug:

Originally Posted by Leeann
You state that “they are not mutually exclusive”…meaning Jesus and Mary….this is what the Catholic Church teaches, however this is not what the Apostles ever made reference too when they advised people to whom to go to in time of trouble, in time of need…they advised and exhorted people to go directly to Jesus/God.

guanophore:
You seem to presume that asking other Godly people to pray for us interferes with going to God

Don’t “presume” guanophore – you usually get it wrong!

However this time, with the quote of mine you posted above, I can see where you would get that impression….I should have been more specific and stated that - there’s nothing wrong with fellow believers, here on earth, supporting one another and covering one another with prayer….as is evident in the scriptures you posted below. The Apostles encouraged and taught this. What is not evident is that they encouraged and taught people to pray to/through those saints that were no longer present with us here on earth…and especially not after Jesus had risen…they pointed to Him/God.

*Acts 8:24
24 Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may happen to me.”

James 5:16-18
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. 17 Elijah was a human being like us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the earth yielded its harvest.*

Originally Posted by Leeann
Whatever Mary desires, is irrelevant…the point is, is that HE is able and willing and desiring that we go to HIM….that is HIS will.

guanophore:

Jesus did not seem to think it was irrelevant.

You seem to have a warped perception of the saved. Those who are glorified in Christ are hidden with Him in God. Their thoughts and wills are perfectly conformed to His image. Those who have been perfected can no longer be touched by sin, and all they want is the fullness of His glory here on earth. That is why their prayers are entirely relevant.

There you go “presuming” again….I was with you almost right up to the last highlighted sentence.
In the quote of mine you posted above – I was pointing our the pre-eminence of Christ’s desires as opposed to what Mary’s desires are, even if, as you believe, they are exactly what His are……we are encouraged by the Apostles to go to HIM…not Mary, as HE is able, HE is willing and HE desires us to do so.

This is where it gets a bit messy…quotes within quotes and things “chopped” up ??? and I’m not sure where this came from or what you are referring too with it….unless you are making the point in V4 – about “then you also will be revealed with him in glory”….which is wonderful and beautiful…but doesn’t account for praying to/through Mary.

*Col 3:1-4
2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, 3 for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory. *

Originally Posted by Leeann
What “promise to humanity” of God’s are you referring too here?
As far as I am aware, Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to humanity…our hope.

guanophore:
Indeed He is. He has manifested this promise in those whom He has perfected already. Those whom He has glorified reflect His promises.

Leeann’s partial post from another posting ???
As Paul writes in Colossians 1 – V 27-28

…to be continued…

---

 

[Leeann]

…cont’d.

guanophore posted

Colossians
23 **if ye continue in the faith **grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

guanophore:
This reference in Col is about the saints that are still here on earth working out their salvation. I am speaking of those who have already been glorified.

Leeann:
Yes, I’m aware of what the verses Colossians are about……the ones I posted in Post #139, which
were posted then in response to totally different comment…”hope”…who/where is our hope in….Jesus.

Post # 139 Below

Originally Posted by Leeann
Paul advises us who our “Hope” is – and it’s not Mary – but the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy V 1.

guanophore:
Mary is the best example of God’s fulfillement of His promise to humanity. She embodies that Hope to which we all aspire in Christ.

Leeann:
What “promise to humanity” of God’s are you referring too here?
As far as I am aware, Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promise to humanity…our hope.

As Paul writes in Colossians 1 – V 27-28

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:
23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25 whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;** which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:**
28 whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

---

guanophore:

Rev 19:6-8

6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunderpeals, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready;
8 to her it has been granted to be clothed
with fine linen, bright and pure” — for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

There is a great multitude that have already been perfected. Their wills are perfectly confromed to His will.

But it is to HIM that we are encouraged and told to go to/through in prayer by the Apostles, not the great multitude….no matter what their will is or who it is conformed too.

 

[Leeann]

“Mary, Virgin and Mother, shows us what love is and whence it draws its origin and its constantly renewed power. To her we entrust the Church and her mission in the service of love:
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
you have given the world its true light,
Jesus, your Son – the Son of God.
You abandoned yourself completely
to God’s call
and thus became a wellspring
of the goodness which flows forth from him.
Show us Jesus. Lead us to him.
Teach us to know and love him,
so that we too can become
capable of true love
and be fountains of living water
in the midst of a thirsting world.

guanophore:
Do you not agree with this?

Originally Posted by Leeann
No.

guanophore:
What is not to like?

Why “entrust the Church” (Catholic Church) to Mary – is it not already Christ’s, is He not sufficient?
Simply not necessary (the highlighted parts) – if you truly believe and have faith in what the Apostles and Jesus preached and taught in their Gospel message of salvation.

Originally Posted by Leeann
I’m not sure I understand your question???

guanophore:
Please read what I wrote meditatively. Close your eyes, and imagine what I wrote about. Can you see it?

what was posted by
guanophore:
I am quite sure that it is possible to know and love Jesus apart from His mother. However, He chose to come to us through human flesh and blood, to be part of a family, to share His mother with His disciples. He could have chosen to appear on earth in a fiery chariot (could have borrowed the one Ezekiel came in on) but He did not. He entrusted His Godhead to this woman who held Him at her breast. If He is able to become totally vunerable in her arms, why should we worry?

While what you wrote sounds beautiful, when I meditate upon it, I come up with a different response at the end…where you speak of His “total vulnerability” in her arms and ”why should we worry”….I’m assuming (correct me if I’m wrong)…that you are referring to Mary when you say “why should we worry”……my response is – “totally vulnerable” – Are you not forgetting who Jesus’ “father” was?
What GOD’s plan was?

What the angel told Mary…Luke 1:

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

guanophore:
I think that most people who have a problem have unresolved trust issues with their earthly mothers. It is difficult for those of us who have come from environments that are toxic or dysfunctional to appreciate the best mothering possible on earth.

Originally Posted by Leeann
Yes, I believe there is a lot of truth in what you’ve stated here, I’ve seen you make this comment before.

I also think that it works the other way around ….those people, with unresolved trust issues with their earthly mothers – or lack of a positive female relationship in their lives -have a desperate need to believe in what the Catholic Church has taught about Mary - the absolute perfection – the “protection” - thereby deriving the comfort and solace that they may never have experienced from an ‘earthly mother/woman’ - attempting to fill a void within themselves.

Response guanophore:
Actually, it is not another “way around”. It is a way “through”. Jesus came to us “through” Mary.

Oh guanophore….how out of context can you make it!
As you can see – my comment above was in response to an opinion you posted, as is the one below.

Originally Posted by Leeann
It is easy for those who are desparately wanting and who have come from environments that are toxic or dysfunctional to be able to believe and cling onto a theology that offers the notion that “mother” – the mother of God, is there and will never turn them away……even if Jesus/God does?

guanophore:
You are back to your false dichotomy. The mother of God never turns away those who are in her Son because we are all one Body, one Spirit in Christ. There is no separation between Mary and those that are part of her Son. She receives all of us as she receives HIm.

Leeann:
And you’re back to quoting “Catholic Church teaching about Mary”….which the Apostles always never taught or Jesus for that matter…they never suggested that Mary or any other saints that had passed away should be prayed too/through…they specifically pointed to Jesus/God….because HE is willing and able to help us in everything.

At least we’re consistent!

 

[Leeann]

guanophore:

Rev 12:17
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

All who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus are her children. Those who have turned away Christ have turned her away also.

And your understanding is that the woman in that verse is Mary or is it a reference to His church?

guanophore:

Originally Posted by Leeann
“With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This prayer was made after the Mass, Leeann. The perfect prayer to Jesus had already been made. Now, he is asking for the intercession of other persons.

Then by his own actions and the words of the prayer itself…he is either really confused….or not sure that the “perfect prayer to Jesus” was sufficient….Yikes!

guanophore:
1 Thess 3:10
10 Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you face to face and restore whatever is lacking in your faith.

Why does Paul pray night and day? Is Jesus not enough?

Why shouldn’t he? As long as they remain steadfast in their faith…is there something wrong with Paul praying for fellow believers and to continue to teach and build them up?

Let’s take a good look at that verse…in context :

6 But now when Timothy came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
7 therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
8 for now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, **for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;**10 **night and day praying exceedingly **that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
12 And **the Lord **make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 to the end **he may stablish your hearts unblamable in holiness **before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

guanophore:
Do you imagine that Paul thinks God has no other way to build up the faith besides himself?

???..and this is in reference to …what???

 

[Good_Daughter]

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - “*we will not ****know to whom to turn”… *my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Hi Leeann

I’ve been wanting to answer you question but it’s tricky adding anything new or original to the thread at this point, so I came up with an analogy:

If someone wanted to learn about early 20thC American architecture, where would you advise them to turn…to the great work of Frank Lloyd Wright (The Guggenheim Museum, Fallingwater)…or Frank Lloyd Wright?

It’s tempting to say Frank Lloyd Wright, isn’t it? If you could somehow converse with him, he could explain his genius directly. What more would you need?

The fact remains though that this great architect, but a shadow of the Great Architect, reveals himself most fully in creation. We’re meant to know the designer through the design.

My answer to your question then is Mary, not because she’s in any way divine (she’s a creation, just like The Guggenheim) but because of the way Almighty God has designed her to impart the divine to us.

Just some random thoughts…ignore if they don’t make sense.

 

[Good_Fella]

Why “entrust the Church” (Catholic Church) to Mary – is it not already Christ’s, is He not sufficient?
Simply not necessary (the highlighted parts) – if you truly believe and have faith in what the Apostles and Jesus preached and taught in their Gospel message of salvation.

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your mother.”
John 19, 26-27

Jesus entrusted Mary his mother to the Church.

We "truly believe and have faith " in the words of our Lord as written and meant to be understood by John. Unlike the authors of the other (synoptic) gospels, John is notably more poetic, symbolic, and mystical in his literary approach. His narratives contain deeper meanings than what appears to be so on the surface at first glance. The Church Fathers recognized the symbolic importance of the expression “the disciple” used by the evangelist when referring to himself. They accurately perceived that John is identifying himself with all of Christ’s followers who bear witness to Him. And like John we have been called to accept Mary as our own spiritual mother. It is also significant (with John nothing is purely incidental) that Jesus first addresses his mother giving her to ‘the disciple’ before he calls him to take her as his own. Thus John is not telling us that Jesus is strictly concerned with finding a close and trustworthy person to take care of his mother after he is gone from this world. Rather our Lord is primarily concerned with our spiritual wellbeing and has thus given us his mother to look after us in our spiritual battle with the dragon (cf. Rev 12:17). Jesus calls his mother “Woman” in allusion to Genesis 3:15 signifying her spiritual maternal role as the new Eve and Mother of the Church who serves as our human advocate before God.

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying His Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V: 19,1 (A.D. 180)

"For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His Mother, ‘Woman, behold thy son,’ and not ‘Behold, you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, ‘Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that everyone who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, ‘Behold thy son Christ?’ "
Origen, Commentary on John, 1:6 (A.D. 232)

“I love to call her “the Virgin”] the Church. This mother, when alone, had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother – pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz, with the Word for childhood.”
Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 1:6 (A.D. 202)

PAX :tiphat:

 

[Leeann]

Good Daughter:

Hi Leeann

I’ve been wanting to answer you question but it’s tricky adding anything new or original to the thread at this point, so I came up with an analogy:

If someone wanted to learn about early 20thC American architecture, where would you advise them to turn…to the great work of Frank Lloyd Wright (The Guggenheim Museum, Fallingwater)…or Frank Lloyd Wright?

It’s tempting to say Frank Lloyd Wright, isn’t it? If you could somehow converse with him, he could explain his genius directly. What more would you need?

But that’s the wonder of it all….we can converse with “the Great Architect”…in fact the Apostles encouraged the early believers (and us by the HS inspired words left in scripture)…to do just that….because they/we have direct access by His blood sacrifice.

Hebrews 10

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 and having a high priest over the house of God;
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for he is faithful that promised;

Hebrews 4

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We may obtain “mercy” and find “grace” in the time of need……we can come “boldly” to His throne….because of His sacrifice.

Good Daughter:
The fact remains though that this great architect, .(but a shadow of the Great Architect, reveals himself most fully in creation. We’re meant to know the designer through the design.

And what wonderful examples were laid out for the early believers (and us) are exhorted to follow ….with Jesus being the one in particular that we are to look too…Heb Chapt 12….”the author and finisher of our faith.”

Good Daughter:
My answer to your question then is Mary, not because she’s in any way divine (she’s a creation, just like The Guggenheim) but because of the way Almighty God has designed her to impart the divine to us.

And this is part of the Catholic Church’s teaching….”because of the way Almighty God has designed her to impart the divine to us” ?

Could you elaborate a bit more on what the underlined part means to you.

Thank you for taking the time to post and sharing your thoughts.

It’s always interesting to have new posters – it doesn’t matter whether the answer is the same or not – it’s the way their view is expressed at times, that sheds more light on why they believe what they do. (Catholics and Non-Catholics)

 

[Leeann]

Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut.

Going to spend some time just catching up on the posts!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

LeeAnn, hon:

I notice your response to my post spent more time shall we say impugning my motives to uncharitable causes than it did in actually addressing what I actually said.

Would you like to move on now and address not how you feel like I’m a pharisee etc. but to comment on certain things such as the fact that the early Christians prayed to martyred Christians and the proof is in the inscriptions in the catacombs?

We are talking early, early Christianity here, LeeAnn. You want to speak of the apostles and your opinion 2000 years on which itself is based on man-made interpretation that is fewer than 400 years old.

Why don’t you wish to speak of practices which are proven to have been ongoing for 1800 years of Christianity–within 3 generations of the apostles, continuous since then–especially since one can ‘trace back’ to that time instances where practices which were not apostolic in origin were practiced and were roundly condemned and eliminated?

Surely if praying to the martyrs were not an apostolic practice it would have likewise been condemned with Nestorianism, Arianism, Pelagianism, etc. etc.

So show me (since you are so concerned with early Christianity) why your modern and unsupported private interpretation should be believed over practices that have been ongoing with written proof since AD 200, and with oral tradition that can be traced back to the apostles themselves? Especially with the precedent that what is written is predated by what is oral, and that therefore, the practice of such prayer had been taking place for** some time** before it was actually committed to the written word?

 

[rinnie]

It is not the teaching of any Christian church and I don’t see anyone putting Jesus and Mary at odds with one another here. However how you read it is another thing. There is only ONE intermediary and that is Christ our Lord. I am sure that Mary is with Jesus but not as mother and son as they were on earth. I am not diminshing what Mary did her on earth in anyway but there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus and no one else.

How could asking Mary to pray for you in any way put her above Jesus? Where in the RCC teachings did we ever say Mary could replace Jesus. All we have ever said is that we believe that Christ can work through Mary if he pleases. And we believe that because Mary was the Mother of CHrist and is very close to her, her prayers are very powerful. The Church believe’s this, the Pope believes this and I believe this. Who else in this world did God send the Power of the Holy Spirit to at the moment of conception. Now do you think he would do that, pick her to deliver Jesus Christ and then not listen to her prayers?

How could us asking the Mother of Christ to help us with her prayers and go with us to Christ when we pray ever be putting her above Christ.

Question, when we ask the Blessed Mother for help, and she helps us how do you think she does that?

Do you not understand that the prayers the Blessed Mother say’s go straight to Christ?

 

[rinnie]

Also David Mary is an intercessor not a intemediary. I believe that you are confused with the teachings of the RCC.