Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Good Fella

Moses and Elijah could never have appeared with Jesus without the anticipation of our Lord’s sacrificial death on the cross. And the sacrifices of the old Covenant ultimately had merit in view of their fulfillment in the one redemptive sacrifice of Jesus. The sacrifices made by the Jews covered the personal sins of the people. They did not serve to redeem mankind from original sin that bars us from entering heaven. So the righteous Jews of the old Covenant were saved by faith through grace in anticipation of the merits of Christ’s Precious Blood.

I am not arguing from my own reasoning. This is what you wrote, and I quote you:“We now have access to His throne of grace…which the Jews simply didn’t have at that time.”

Yes, I did write that….it was **the very last line **of one of my responses in **post #165 **and when read in context with the whole response…not just “one line” that you picked out”…it makes sense.

Post # 165

Goodfella:
*The Jews were aware that God desires human beings to collaborate with him and acknowledges their abilty to intercede on behalf of others provided that the sinful open their hearts to Him in a spirit of repentance (cf. Jer 7:16). The Jews saw nothing wrong with asking a righteous person to intercede before God on their behalf. King Zedekiah sent messengers to ask for Jeremiah’s intercession (cf. Jer 37:3). *

*Leeann:
Taking into consideration that these righteous people – to whom the Jews saw nothing wrong in asking to pray for them on their behalf……were right there with them, on earth - fulfilling God’s requirements and administering the sacrifices that were necessary at that time under the old covenant.

We now have access to His throne of grace…which the Jews simply didn’t have at that time.*

AND as you can see…all of the above has already been addressed…by me…in another previous post ** - #173 **– which also cover all of your comments below that you just posted. It appears you must have “missed” my previous posts?

Good Fella

If this is true, I fail to see how the ancient Jews of the old Covenant were able to make sacrifices pleasing and acceptable to God in a spirit of true faith. It is by faith through grace that one is in favour with God. They couldn’t have been found righteous in their faith (the observance of the law of love and freedom that is written in every human heart) apart from cooperating with God’s grace. Jesus came to fulfill the true meaning of the law and the words of the prophets. His blood sacrifice covers all, including the Jews who were found righteous by observing the true meaning of the law by the grace of God. Jesus condemned the superficial observance of the law - the following of rules for their own sake by which one presumes that God is now in his debt for having kept the rules. The sacrifices that were made at Passover could not serve to atone for the personal sins of the people if they were performed without a true spirit of repentance. Just as an insincere observance of the law - the absence of the love of God and neighbour and a pure concern with reaping temporal rewards or averting temporal punishment - would be exercised in vain.

Previous Post #173

*Good Fella:
The Jews didn’t have “Jesus’ blood sacrifice on their behalf at that point in time which we have now”?

Leeann:
Well did they? Had Jesus come to earth, born of the Virgin Mary yet? Had He been crucified, had He died and been raised from the dead back in Mose’s time or Elijah’s here on earth?*

They were under the old covenant – they made sacrifices and offerings that were acceptable and pleased God.

…………and then I went on to post scripture - with regards to Moses/Elijah and which would also cover others under the old covenant……

*Leeann:
Of course they weren’t damned in hell when they conversed with Jesus….they had already been found acceptable by God…by their obedience under the old covenant, by their faith.

I’m sure you’re familiar with Hebrews 11?

32 – 40 – especially V 39: it explains how - by their “faith” and how God found them acceptable and by providing another way for us – the new covenant – in Jesus, that we will not be apart from them….that His blood sacrifice covers us all*.

All of these statements you have made in your last response……have already been discussed and responded too…by me…complete with scripture references???

Good Fella
Replying to your comments is time consuming and do prove endless, so I better ignore your future replies (or most of them) from now on although I appreciate the challenge.

I understand completely Good Fella.

It is apparent that you didn’t understand what I was saying - either due to an inadequacy on my part in making myself clear - or to your inadequacy of being able to comprehend what was posted……and when.

Perhaps you can go back and read them through more thoroughly and in context…and by presenting them in that manner, it may prove less time consuming for everyone.

 

[Leeann]

Hello nbtb 1348

Thank you for taking the time to post!

 

[jlhargus]

Leeann: If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

JL: Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, **you his servants **who do his will. The author is asking angles to praise the Lord]

Mt18:10 **Take heed **that ye **despise not **one of these **little ones **for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. If a little one is in trouble, the angel interceeds as the childs advocate before God, otherwise what is the point?]

Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with **the prayers of the saints **from the hand of the angel before God.
From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God. My opinion the angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God.]

RV 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, **which are the prayers of saints. **Angles and Saints in heaven, only saints receive crowns. They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth interceding, through Christ the Lamb=mediator. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints a pleasing sound unto the Lord.]

LK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise** joy shall be in heaven **over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance… 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is **joy in the presence of the angels **of God over one sinner that repenteth. Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels. We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but God and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows, by being united to that one and only body we all receive the grace to persevere. 1Cor12:14: For the body is not one member, but many. 1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.

 

[jlhargus]

Leeann: If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

JL: 1Tim5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. [Isn’t Paul also calling on angles as witnesses.]

Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD,** you his angels**, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will. [Isn’t the author asking angles to praise the Lord]

Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. [Wouldn’t the angels serve as the childs intercessor or advocate before God, otherwise what is the point?]

Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
[From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God. My opinion the angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God.]

RV 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth isn’t that interceding. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints.]

LK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be **in heaven **over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance… 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels ofGod over one sinner that repenteth. Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels. We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but God and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows, by being united to that one and only body we all receive the grace to persevere. 1Cor12:14: For the body is not one member, but many. 1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.

 

[Leeann]

Hi jlhargus

Quote:
Leeann: If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

1Tim5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
[Isn’t Paul also calling on angles as witnesses.]

Paul is writing to Timothy and addressing him. He is not praying to God/Jesus or the angels.

Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.
[Isn’t the author asking angles to praise the Lord]

In Ps148 Praise Him, all His angels, Praise Him, all His Hosts, Praise Him, Sun and Moon, Praise Him, all you stars of light……in the context you are applying, that would mean that the author is also asking the Sun and the Moon to praise Him……as you read further on…it includes fruitful trees and all cattle….

Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
[Wouldn’t the angels serve as the childs intercessor or advocate before God, otherwise what is the point?]

There is no indication that the children were praying to angels.

Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
[From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God. My opinion the angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God.]

I don’t know that the prayers of the saints need anything added to them to make them more pleasing to God, but that may be so…however these verses don’t support praying to anyone other than to God/Jesus.

RV 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth isn’t that interceding. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints.]

But what has that got to do with “praying” with regards to my quote that you posted above?

LK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance… 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
[Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels.[/COLOR] We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but God and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows, by being united to that one and only body we all receive the grace to persevere. 1Cor12:14: For the body is not one member, but many. 1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.]

From those verses you quoted, it is evident that the angels are indeed aware and full of joy over sinners that repent…but again this has nothing to do with “praying” or with regards to the quote.

I agree that we are all members, joined together, of one body – Christ, through which the Spirit flows…true and faithful believers….regardless of what church/denomination ones belongs too.

Thank you for the time you took to post these verses and for your understanding of what they mean.

---

 

[nbtb1348]

Sorry, but this is not true. In fact, the practice of interceding to Mary and the saints preceeded the development of the Roman (Latin Rite) for several centuries. This practice was already active during Jesus time on earth, and the early disciples entreated the prayers of the martyrs, beginning with John the Baptist, followed by Stephen. It has nothing to do with anything “Roman”.

As for the basis in scripture, well, we read it differently!

I agree, however, it is not possible to really “prove” this practice using scripture. We see it there because it was present in the Church before the Scripture was written.

Such a statement reflects the modern fundamentalist notion of “me and Jesus only”. It is a curious innovation that seemst to disregard that Jesus founded a Church, and has a Body. Why did He do such useless things?

He wants us to join together in prayer, bear one another’s burdens in prayer, engage in prayers of praise corporately…all those things. And that is alive and well. It has nothing to do with “Jesus and me”, although believers are to “pray without ceasing,” which would certainly inculde times of solitary prayer, as when Jesus daily went out and prayed alone.

If praying to Mary is something God desires and is superior to praying to Jesus, then tell us of the unusual answers you receive by getting Mary to persuade Jesus, rather than simply praying directly to Him, as He has invited us to do?

It’s amazing that when Jesus gave us that great promise and instruction on prayer in John 16:24 (“Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.”), that He didn’t say, “And if you really want to get me to be true to this promise, ask my mother to persuade me”. It would have been so helpful for us. No, this is simply unbelief that His promise and intercession AS PERSCRIBED is sufficient.

 

[nbtb1348]

Hi jlhargus

1Tim5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
[Isn’t Paul also calling on angles as witnesses.]

Paul is writing to Timothy and addressing him. He is not praying to God/Jesus or the angels.

Ps 103:20 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. 21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.
[Isn’t the author asking angles to praise the Lord]

In Ps148 Praise Him, all His angels, Praise Him, all His Hosts, Praise Him, Sun and Moon, Praise Him, all you stars of light……in the context you are applying, that would mean that the author is also asking the Sun and the Moon to praise Him……as you read further on…it includes fruitful trees and all cattle….

Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
[Wouldn’t the angels serve as the childs intercessor or advocate before God, otherwise what is the point?]

There is no indication that the children were praying to angels.

Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne 4: and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
[From the hand of the angel the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up to God. My opinion the angel adds to the prayers of the saints (incense) to make them more pleasing to God.]

I don’t know that the prayers of the saints need anything added to them to make them more pleasing to God, but that may be so…however these verses don’t support praying to anyone other than to God/Jesus.

RV 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
[They are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth isn’t that interceding. Harps adding to the prayers of the saints.]

But what has that got to do with “praying” with regards to my quote that you posted above?

LK 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance… 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
[Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and rejoice in the presence of angels.[/COLOR] We are a people not just lone individuals, it is not Jesus and me, but God and us the entire body of Christ through which the Spirit flows, by being united to that one and only body we all receive the grace to persevere. 1Cor12:14: For the body is not one member, but many. 1 COR 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body but that the members should have the same care one for another.]

From those verses you quoted, it is evident that the angels are indeed aware and full of joy over sinners that repent…but again this has nothing to do with “praying” or with regards to the quote.

I agree that we are all members, joined together, of one body – Christ, through which the Spirit flows…true and faithful believers….regardless of what church/denomination ones belongs too.

Thank you for the time you took to post these verses and for your understanding of what they mean.

---

Leeann, you are so right on target. You keep showing what Scripture says. And you know, one of the sad things here is that the people you are talking to do not even know what a saint is. That, to me, is one of the most glaring errors of their ways.

 

[guanophore]

He wants us to join together in prayer, bear one another’s burdens in prayer, engage in prayers of praise corporately…all those things. And that is alive and well.

Yes. Catholics just don’ t make any distinction about including those who have already gone to their heavenly reward. This is what is meant by the communion of saints. We are all members of the One Body.

If praying to Mary is something God desires

I notice Jesus had no problem reprimanding the saints in the book of Revelation. How come you suppose He never found fault with any of His followers for doing this?

and is superior to praying to Jesus,

This is just a nonsense statement. That is like saying “praying with my friend is superior to praying by myself”. They are not some kind of competition. Both are important. One does not exclude the other.

then tell us of the unusual answers you receive by getting Mary to persuade Jesus, rather than simply praying directly to Him, as He has invited us to do?

I don’t find anything unusual about them at all!

You are also making the same false dichotomy that Leeann makes. We ask Mary to join with us in intercession. We don’t ask her “instead” of him. We ask her to pray with us.

It’s amazing that when Jesus gave us that great promise and instruction on prayer in John 16:24 (“Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.”), that He didn’t say, “And if you really want to get me to be true to this promise, ask my mother to persuade me”. It would have been so helpful for us. No, this is simply unbelief that His promise and intercession AS PERSCRIBED is sufficient.

Yes, we do find it helpful to have Mary’s prayers. Her heel crushes the head of the serpent. However, if you do not feel you would benefit from her prayers, don’t ask for them,!

I do not share your formulation that Jesus needs to be pursuaded by His mother to do things for us. However, I do know that He has a soft spot for His mama.

 

[guanophore]

And you know, one of the sad things here is that the people you are talking to do not even know what a saint is.  That, to me, is one of the most glaring errors of their ways.

Is that why you are here? To show us the glaring errors of our ways?

 

[nbtb1348]

Yes. Catholics just don’ t make any distinction about including those who have already gone to their heavenly reward. This is what is meant by the communion of saints. We are all members of the One Body.

I notice Jesus had no problem reprimanding the saints in the book of Revelation. How come you suppose He never found fault with any of His followers for doing this?

This is just a nonsense statement. That is like saying “praying with my friend is superior to praying by myself”. They are not some kind of competition. Both are important. One does not exclude the other.

I don’t find anything unusual about them at all!

You are also making the same false dichotomy that Leeann makes. We ask Mary to join with us in intercession. We don’t ask her “instead” of him. We ask her to pray with us.

Yes, we do find it helpful to have Mary’s prayers. Her heel crushes the head of the serpent. However, if you do not feel you would benefit from her prayers, don’t ask for them,!

I do not share your formulation that Jesus needs to be pursuaded by His mother to do things for us. However, I do know that He has a soft spot for His mama.

Saying He has a soft spot for his mama is a patent denial of the privileges he offers all his children to pray directly to Him.

And her heel in no way crushed the serpent. Jesus’ did. But I honestly think it would not be surprising if Rome announced that it was, in fact Mary’s heel that crushed the serpent’s head. I beleive Mary is much more popular in the RCC than Jesus is. Why do you think that is?

 

[nbtb1348]

Is that why you are here? To show us the glaring errors of our ways?

I am here hopefully doing the same thing as you-discussing truth as God has revealed it and applying it to our lives.

But will you tell me what the New Testament teaches about saints?

 

[guanophore]

Saying He has a soft spot for his mama is a patent denial of the privileges he offers all his children to pray directly to Him.

By no means! Don’t you remember? He said that all those who hear the word of God and keep it are his mother, his brother, etc. He is grafting us all into the family!

What do you think happened at the wedding in Cana?

How was Mary so sure He would respond in the most perfect way?

And her heel in no way crushed the serpent. Jesus’ did.

She was privileged to bear Him into the world, and followed HIm right through to the foot of the cross. Don’t you ever wonder that He did not appear to Mary after He rose? Maybe He did, and it was not written. Maybe that was one of the things she hid in her heart. Or, maybe she was the only one that believed Him, and did not go to the tomb because she knew He would be gone!

But I honestly think it would not be surprising if Rome announced that it was, in fact Mary’s heel that crushed the serpent’s head.

As you say, we are all able to crush the serpents head because of what Jesus did for us.

I beleive Mary is much more popular in the RCC than Jesus is. Why do you think that is?

I can’t notice that is the case, so I could not say.

I believe it seems that way to outsiders because most Protestants have a very deficient understanding of prayer and worship.

 

[guanophore]

But will you tell me what the New Testament teaches about saints?

No, I will not. Mostly because it is beyond the scope of this thread, but also because you already insulted me by asserting that I did not know.

However, if you wish to go oer to Apologetics and start a thread, I will participate.

 

[Leeann]

Guanophore:

Sorry, but this is not true. In fact, the practice of interceding to Mary and the saints preceeded the development of the Roman (Latin Rite) for several centuries. This practice was already active during Jesus time on earth, and the early disciples entreated the prayers of the martyrs, beginning with John the Baptist, followed by Stephen. It has nothing to do with anything “Roman”.

By saying that the “early disciples” entreated the prayers of the martyrs (those indicated as John the Baptist and Stephen) in no way makes it the correct thing to do. It only shows that they were doing it. There is no evidence that Jesus or the Apostles themselves encouraged or taught this practice when they went out doing as He commissioned them to do – and in the later letters that were sent out to the churches of the very, early believers – they pointed them to Jesus/God and exhorted them to support each other and uphold one another in prayer……not to pray to Mary.

Guanophore:

I agree, however, it is not possible to really “prove” this practice using scripture. We see it there because it was present in the Church before the Scripture was written.

Whether something was “present in the church” prior to the scriptures being written, is no proof that it was “correct”…only proof that it was happening.
Scripture is God’s truth…and it’s not in there.

 

[Leeann]

Guanophore

You are also making the same false dichotomy that Leeann makes. We ask Mary to join with us in intercession. We don’t ask her “instead” of him. We ask her to pray with us.

Emil Post 51 in response to another poster

A “…'FALSE DICHOTOMY”…???
DEAR FRIEND: Please know the meaning of the words which you employ. There is no false dichotomy other than the one which you are illogically trying to espouse.

Not all agree about the “false dichotomy”…. it is good to see the various responses, not only with regards to the thread topic question, but also as to the reasoning and understanding behind the responses.

 

[guanophore]

By saying that the “early disciples” entreated the prayers of the martyrs (those indicated as John the Baptist and Stephen) in no way makes it the correct thing to do. It only shows that they were doing it.

What you don’t seem to take into account is that the Early Church was vigorous to stamp out heresies and wrong practices. The fact that this custom persistent with no compliants is a strong indication that it was never considered problematic.

There is no evidence that Jesus or the Apostles themselves encouraged or taught this practice when they went out doing as He commissioned them to do – and in the later letters that were sent out to the churches of the very, early believers – they pointed them to Jesus/God and exhorted them to support each other and uphold one another in prayer……not to pray to Mary.

There is plenty of evidence for all the corrollaries, though. The Apostles encourage prayer for one another (intercession) and they are clear that those who have gone on before us in faith are not dead, but are part of the communion of saints, and are in the presence of God. For seasoned prayer warriors, this means they are more effective, as the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous are the most helpful.

Whether something was “present in the church” prior to the scriptures being written, is no proof that it was “correct”…only proof that it was happening.
Scripture is God’s truth…and it’s not in there.

No, but that is not a concern for us, since we know that Scripture was never intended to be the total compendium of Christian faith and practice. The book of Acts is clear that the new converts devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and the prayers. These are the prayers that have been passed down to us, preserved in Tradition, just as the Apostles instructed.

Not all agree about the “false dichotomy”…. it is good to see the various responses, not only with regards to the thread topic question, but also as to the reasoning and understanding behind the responses.

Their ignorance notwithstanding, you are both creating a false dichotomy. Joining in prayer with those united to Christ is not antagonistic or subtractive from Christ. Jesus is glorified when we support one another in prayer.

 

[Good_Daughter]

And this is part of the Catholic Church’s teaching….”because of the way Almighty God has designed her to impart the divine to us” ?

Could you elaborate a bit more on what the underlined part means to you.

I was simply thinking of Mary “imparting the divine to us” in a literal, physical sense. If a person was so inclined, they could take the notion to other levels.

Just to touch on that architecture analogy once again, I have a direct question for you:

Where would you point someone who wanted to learn about American architecture in the 20thC… to the great work of Frank Lloyd Right, or… to Frank Lloyd Wright (imagining we could converse with the architect himself as we may with the Great Architect)?

 

[Leeann]

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
By saying that the “early disciples” entreated the prayers of the martyrs (those indicated as John the Baptist and Stephen) in no way makes it the correct thing to do. It only shows that they were doing it.

guanophore:
What you don’t seem to take into account is that the Early Church was vigorous to stamp out heresies and wrong practices. The fact that this custom persistent with no compliants is a strong indication that it was never considered problematic.

Perhaps the insistence the Apostles displayed in pointing the early believers to Jesus/God in prayer and not anyone else is an indication of attempting to correct this “practice”? You do mean this “early” don’t you?

Originally Posted by Leeann
There is no evidence that Jesus or the Apostles themselves encouraged or taught this practice when they went out doing as He commissioned them to do – and in the later letters that were sent out to the churches of the very, early believers – they pointed them to Jesus/God and exhorted them to support each other and uphold one another in prayer……not to pray to Mary.

guanophore:
There is plenty of evidence for all the corrollaries, though.

By *that *standard…there is not only plenty of evidence but plenty of corollaries for almost “anything” one would look for.

guanophore:
The Apostles encourage prayer for one another (intercession) and they are clear that those who have gone on before us in faith are not dead, but are part of the communion of saints, and are in the presence of God. For seasoned prayer warriors, this means they are more effective, as the effectual fervent prayers of the righteous are the most helpful.

If you are using the term “communion of saints” as is used by the Catholic Church, that is simply untrue, as the Apostles never encouraged the practice of praying to anyone other that God/Jesus.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Whether something was “present in the church” prior to the scriptures being written, is no proof that it was “correct”…only proof that it was happening.
Scripture is God’s truth…and it’s not in there.

guanophore:
No, but that is not a concern for us, since we know that Scripture was never intended to be the total compendium of Christian faith and practice. The book of Acts is clear that the new converts devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and the prayers. These are the prayers that have been passed down to us, preserved in Tradition, just as the Apostles instructed.

I understand that this is what you have been taught and what you believe to be true within the Catholic faith, however, as you are aware, there are others Christians - “of Christian faith” where what you have posted above is not accepted as fact.

**Originally Posted by Leeann **
Not all agree about the “false dichotomy”…. it is good to see the various responses, not only with regards to the thread topic question, but also as to the reasoning and understanding behind the responses.

guanophore:
Their ignorance notwithstanding, you are both creating a false dichotomy.

That is your “opinion”. (regarding the false dichotomy …and their ignorance).

guanophore:
Joining in prayer with those united to Christ is not antagonistic or subtractive from Christ. Jesus is glorified when we support one another in prayer.

Of course He is glorified and the Apostles encouraged us to pray together and for one another.

Jesus is glorified when it is done in the manner the Apostles exhorted from the very beginning. They were pretty clear on to whom they kept telling the first believers to go to in times of trouble, need or consolation and they never suggested anyone in heaven other than Jesus/God.

 

[guanophore]

Perhaps the insistence the Apostles displayed in pointing the early believers to Jesus/God in prayer and not anyone else is an indication of attempting to correct this “practice”? You do mean this “early” don’t you?

The Apostles, accustomed as they were to the sense of being in communion with the saints, probably never fathomed that anyone would have a problem with their intercession.

It is like many other things that would absolutely boggle their minds that are commonplace today, for example, the assertion made many times on these threads that Baptism has nothing to do with water. It never occurred to them to write about it, as it seemed like a given.

By *that *standard…there is not only plenty of evidence but plenty of corollaries for almost “anything” one would look for.

I agree, however, “almost everything” is not found in the One Divine Deposit of Faith handed on to us by the Apostles.

If you are using the term “communion of saints” as is used by the Catholic Church, that is simply untrue, as the Apostles never encouraged the practice of praying to anyone other that God/Jesus.

I can accept that you do not believe it, and cannot see the truth of it. This is not unexpected, since you have been separated from the Apostolic Succession,and your access to their teachings is limited to what you can see in the Scripture. however, the Communion of saints is real,a nd was believed and taught by them.

I understand that this is what you have been taught and what you believe to be true within the Catholic faith, however, as you are aware, there are others Christians - “of Christian faith” where what you have posted above is not accepted as fact.

Yes, this is understandible. Most Christians have no idea where there beliefs originated. They look into the scripture, and read out what has been taugth to them, and believe it came from God.

But, as we can see, using the individual mind to privately interpret the scripture results in more and more divisions, and more and more distance from what the Apostles believed and taught, such as the communion of saints. There was not a Christian for 1600 years that did not accept this teaching of the Apostles, until men decided to jettison the Apostolic Teaching and form a different gospel.

That is your “opinion”. (regarding the false dichotomy ....and their ignorance).

Indeed, not just mine, but a number of readers here. In fact, we can look at the OP, and in the light of the Church Teaching, be quite confident that it is a false dichotomy, if for no other reason than the communion of saints is real.

Of course He is glorified and the Apostles encouraged us to pray together and for one another.

Why would you imagine that they would stop praying, just because they had gone on to be with the Lord?

Jesus is glorified when it is done in the manner the Apostles exhorted from the very beginning. They were pretty clear on to whom they kept telling the first believers to go to in times of trouble, need or consolation and they never suggested anyone in heaven other than Jesus/God.

And they would never suggest that any of those in heaven were separated from Jesus. As the Apostle said “to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord”.

By the way, since you reject the Apostolic instruction on the communion of saints, how to you explain the appearances of saints such as Samuel, Elijah, and Moses? How is it that they were aware of events on earth, and could communicate with people here about these things?

 

[Leeann]

Good Daughter:
Just to touch on that architecture analogy once again, I have a direct question for you:

Where would you point someone who wanted to learn about American architecture in the 20thC… to the great work of Frank Lloyd Right, or… to Frank Lloyd Wright (imagining we could converse with the architect himself as we may with the Great Architect)?

Original Post Good Daughter: Post # 156

I’ve been wanting to answer you question but it’s tricky adding anything new or original to the thread at this point, so I came up with an analogy:

If someone wanted to learn about early 20thC American architecture, where would you advise them to turn…to **the great work **of Frank Lloyd Wright (The Guggenheim Museum, Fallingwater)…or Frank Lloyd Wright?

It’s tempting to say Frank Lloyd Wright, isn’t it? If you could somehow converse with him, he could explain his genius directly. What more would you need?

The fact remains though that this great architect, but a shadow of the Great Architect, reveals himself most fully in creation. We’re meant to know the designer through the design.

My answer to your question then is Mary, not because she’s in any way divine (she’s a creation, just like The Guggenheim) but because of the way Almighty God has designed her to impart the divine to us.

I had to go back and re-read your analogy again. I’ve posted it again above.

Since in your first paragraph where you make reference to “the great work” as being the “Guggenheim Museum” – and then in your last paragraph equate “Mary” as to being a creation just like the “Guggenheim Museum” – I would have to say, in relation to that *particular portion *of the analogy – I would point to “Frank Lloyd Wright”…that being the creator in this sense.

Note:
The reason I specifically isolate this portion, is due to the fact that in the third paragraph of your original analogy, you imply that “this great architect” is but a shadow of the Great Architect …
which was rather confusing to me, as I was seeing “this great architect” (Frank Lloyd Wright) as “Jesus/God”,so couldn’t see him as “but a shadow”. Does that make sense?

That is why in my first response I posted that we can converse with Him – “the Great Architect”. (just wanted to clarify that)

Post #156

Good Daughter:
It’s tempting to say Frank Lloyd Wright, isn’t it? If you could somehow converse with him, he could explain his genius directly. What more would you need?

Leeann:
But that’s the wonder of it all….we **can **converse with “the Great Architect”…in fact the Apostles encouraged the early believers (and us by the HS inspired words left in scripture)…to do just that….because they/we have direct access by His blood sacrifice.

(Hebrews 4 & Hebrews 10)