Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

Original Tantum Ergo:

LeeAnn, hon:

I notice your response to my post spent more time shall we say impugning my motives to uncharitable causes than it did in actually addressing what I actually said.

Then you didn’t look closely enough Tantum……I addressed everything you said, as to being what you refer to as “uncharitable causes”….I must say you did good job of attempting to present them in that light. Years of practice no doubt???

Tantum ergo:
Would you like to move on now and address not how you feel like I’m a pharisee etc. (oh my…is *that *the one you chose…interesting how you see yourself…) but to comment on certain things such as the fact that the early Christians prayed to martyred Christians and the proof is in the inscriptions in the catacombs?

Sure! If you feel you can tie it into someway responding to the “thread topic” question –

WHICH IS:​

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“*We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn*.”
Question:

In view of the Pope saying - “we will not know to whom to turn”… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

Tantum ergo:
Why don’t you wish to speak of practices which are proven to have been ongoing for 1800 years of Christianity–within 3 generations of the apostles, continuous since then–especially since one can ‘trace back’ to that time instances where practices which were not apostolic in origin were practiced and were roundly condemned and eliminated?
Surely if praying to the martyrs were not an apostolic practice it would have likewise been condemned with Nestorianism, Arianism, Pelagianism, etc. etc.

Have you been reading the posts…. to me that’s what everyone’s been talking about all along.

What makes you so sure of that? The Catholic Church has had non Apostolic practices before that have gone on for years before they were condemned and eliminated…or developed….or - you know what I mean. Indulgences….(money involved kind) comes to mind. Somebody “missed” that one. Maybe someone just “missed ” this practice – somewhere in the **3 generations ****after **the Apostles and it has been “developing” ever since.

Tantum ergo:
So show me (since you are so concerned with early Christianity) why your modern and unsupported private interpretation should be believed over practices that have been ongoing with written proof since AD 200, and with oral tradition that can be traced back to the apostles themselves? Especially with the precedent that what is written is predated by what is oral, and that therefore, the practice of such prayer had been taking place for some time before it was actually committed to the written word?

As has been stated before, I’m actually more concerned with the “here and now” Christianity and this particular practice of praying to/through Mary and the consequences of the lack of understanding that this practice has had by some Catholic believers, due to the promulgation of this practice over the years -the encouragement of its development and practice by its Church leaders.

My interest in the very first, early Christian believers, the ones that the Apostles actually taught and began His Church with… is based on to whom they were instructed to turn too in times of consolation distress or need - no mention praying to/through Mary (while she lived/or after she died) or any other fellow Christian that had gone on before……they exhorted those believers to go to Jesus/God.

The responses have been varied in their content and from different Catholic posters – not all believe the same, nor practice the same thing…this is simply a fact from their own words.

Tantum – I’m not being “smart alecky” here – I honestly found the last part of your paragraph above a bit convoluted…. can you re-phrase it for me? Thanks.
What “written word” are you referring to here?

By the way……that little “green face” suits you!
(now I’m been smart alecky….hon)

 

[Good_Fella]

Also David Mary is an intercessor not an intermediary. I believe that you are confused with the teachings of the RCC.

God works for good with those who love him.
Romans 8, 28

Indeed, Rinnie. Modern Protestants reject the idea of Mary being granted an intercessory role because they cling to the unbiblical concept of Sola Christu. Somehow they feel that Catholics impugn the all-sufficiency of Christ and the sovereignty of God by relying on our Blessed Mother to pray for us. Once they realize the full significance of the Incarnation - that the Word was made flesh not only to atone for our sins but to call us to collaborate with Him in the work of salvation - they’ll be in a better position to appreciate, if not accept, Catholic devotion to Mary. Jesus tells his apostles at the Last Supper that he has given them (meaning all of our Lord’s true followers) a model to follow. Paul does assure the Corinthians that we are “co-workers with God” (cf. 1 Cor 3:9), and in a letter to Timothy he exhorts the community of the faithful to prayerfully intercede for others since God desires everyone to be saved by His grace (cf. 1 Tim 2: 1-4). Paul acknowledges that there is one Mediator for all of us, but he also sees himself as mediating on behalf of the Church in and through Christ as his apostle. There is nothing wrong with placing our hope in the prayers of others on our behalf, for we are assured that God hears the prayers of the righteous. James certainly doesn’t subscribe to the false Protestant notion.

Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.
James 5, 16-18

It would be just as silly to raise the question whether to whom the prophets would have pointed the Jews to pray to: God or Elijah. The Jews certainly believed in the intercessory power of Elijah, Abraham, and Moses who mediated on behalf of a sinful people. And it would appear they had questioned whether God would have shown his favour without the supplications of his holy ones. They were certainly accurate in the their perception of the terms laid out by God. Samuel felt that he would be sinning against God if he ceased from interceding for the Israelites (cf. 1 Sam 12:23). The Jews were aware that God desires human beings to collaborate with him and acknowledges their abilty to intercede on behalf of others provided that the sinful open their hearts to Him in a spirit of repentance (cf. Jer 7:16). The Jews saw nothing wrong with asking a righteous person to intercede before God on their behalf. King Zedekiah sent messengers to ask for Jeremiah’s intercession (cf. Jer 37:3). Even the angels intercede for us so that we receive God’s favour, so the ancient Jews believed (cf. Zech 1:12-13). The idea that God’s sovereignty is somehow impugned by the intercession of the prophets or any creature of God never entered the Judaic mind. The traditional belief in the power of human intercession is fulfilled in Christ, who serves as the perfect human model of the righteous intercessor, and continues in and through our Lord with the establishment of His Church.

“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father; for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.”
Matthew 5, 44-45

PAX :harp:

 

[David47]

Rinnie
How could asking Mary to pray for you in any way put her above Jesus?

I did not say that it did .

Rinnie

Where in the RCC teachings did we ever say Mary could replace Jesus. All we have ever said is that we believe that Christ can work through Mary if he pleases.

Christ can work through ANYONE he chooses( and that is what all of christianity believes) and yes Mary as as well.

Rinnie

And we believe that because Mary was the Mother of CHrist and is very close to her, her prayers are very powerful. The Church believe’s this, the Pope believes this and I believe this. Who else in this world did God send the Power of the Holy Spirit to at the moment of conception. Now do you think he would do that, pick her to deliver Jesus Christ and then not listen to her prayers?

How could us asking the Mother of Christ to help us with her prayers and go with us to Christ when we pray ever be putting her above Christ.

Question, when we ask the Blessed Mother for help, and she helps us how do you think she does that?

Do you not understand that the prayers the Blessed Mother say’s go straight to Christ?

Yes I do but so do mine(prayers), and he has been and ever will be there for me and for you, Christ is the savior. He promised this and He has never let me down. However I did not know there was a pecking order to who the prayers were from, ie that some were heard more than others. MY Lord hears them all.

God Bless

 

[David47]

Rinnie

Also David Mary is an intercessor not a intemediary. I believe that you are confused with the teachings of the RCC.

Just for the record I am aware of the RCC teachings I did not mention an intercessor. I said that Christ was THE only intermediary. And for the record I dont need an intercessor as Christ said he was the only one to the Father and I believe him. Dont get me wrong if you feel you need one then by all means use one but for me Christ has it all for me.

May God Bless You

 

[Leeann]

Hi Goodfella

Originally Posted by rinnie

Also David Mary is an intercessor not an intermediary. I believe that you are confused with the teachings of the RCC.

Response Goodfella:

Paul does assure the Corinthians that we are “co-workers with God” (cf. 1 Cor 3:9), and in a letter to Timothy he exhorts the community of the faithful to prayerfully intercede for others since God desires everyone to be saved by His grace (cf. 1 Tim 2: 1-4). Paul acknowledges that there is one Mediator for all of us, but he also sees himself as mediating on behalf of the Church in and through Christ as his apostle. There is nothing wrong with placing our hope in the prayers of others on our behalf, for we are assured that God hears the prayers of the righteous. James certainly doesn’t subscribe to the false Protestant notion.

What false Protestant notion would that be? It is my understanding that most if not all Protestants believe in the act of praying for and requesting the prayers of other true and faithful believers on their behalf and follow exactly what Paul instructed those early Christians to do and what James instructs below……they just don’t pray to other saints who have passed away and are no longer here on earth with them, as that is not what James or any of the other Apostles suggested should be done. James is using Elijah as an “example to follow”– he is not suggesting that the believers are to pray to him.

*Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.

James 5, 16-18*

Goodfella:
It would be just as silly to raise the question whether to whom the prophets would have pointed the Jews to pray to: God or Elijah.

It is silly to raise this question, but since you have, let’s follow it through……

Goodfella:
The Jews certainly believed in the intercessory power of Elijah, Abraham, and Moses who mediated on behalf of a sinful people. And it would appear they had questioned whether God would have shown his favour without the supplications of his holy ones. They were certainly accurate in the their perception of the terms laid out by God. Samuel felt that he would be sinning against God if he ceased from interceding for the Israelites (cf. 1 Sam 12:23).

Of course we must remember that the Jews didn’t have Jesus’ blood sacrifice, on their behalf at that point in time, which we do have now.

Goodfella:
The Jews were aware that God desires human beings to collaborate with him and acknowledges their abilty to intercede on behalf of others provided that the sinful open their hearts to Him in a spirit of repentance (cf. Jer 7:16). The Jews saw nothing wrong with asking a righteous person to intercede before God on their behalf. King Zedekiah sent messengers to ask for Jeremiah’s intercession (cf. Jer 37:3).

Taking into consideration that these righteous people – to whom the Jews saw nothing wrong in asking to pray for them on their behalf……were right there with them, on earth - fulfilling God’s requirements and administering the sacrifices that were necessary at that time under the old covenant.

We now have access to His throne of grace…which the Jews simply didn’t have at that time.

Goodfella:
Even the angels intercede for us so that we receive God’s favour, so the ancient Jews believed (cf. Zech 1:12-13). The idea that God’s sovereignty is somehow impugned by the intercession of the prophets or any creature of God never entered the Judaic mind.

And why would it or should it at that time?

Goodfella:
The traditional belief in the power of human intercession is fulfilled in Christ, who serves as the perfect human model of the righteous intercessor, and continues in and through our Lord with the establishment of His Church.

Is this the traditional belief of the Catholic Church……that the power of human intercession is fulfilled in Christ, the perfect human model of the righteous intercessor and continues in and through Him?

In view of the thread topic question – to whom would the Apostles point?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, LeeAnn, I’ll keep trying.

There isn’t a competition. There isn’t Mary standing to the left and Jesus to the right, with the apostles huddled in a bunch while LeeAnn thunders, “OK, guys, which one of them are y’all gonna point to?”

You see, Jesus and Mary stand together. Just as Jesus and any one of the saints are standing together. Anyone who has, like St. Paul, ‘fought the good fight, finished the race, and received the crown’ is standing right there with Jesus.

Remember when St. Paul was chasing the early Christians and Jesus appeared and asked, “Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” Jesus identified Himself with His Church. We are told that we will be joined with Him.

That means there’s no such thing as “Jesus or St. Paul”, or “Jesus or Mary” out there. No competition, no ‘either or’.

In pointing to Christ you are pointing to His Church as well–His bride. Remember, a husband and wife are ‘one flesh’. They are united.

I’ll say a little more in the next post so I’m not ‘bombarding you.’

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Now I know this has been explained to LeeAnn and indeed to most reading these threads except those who are just coming on (may God give you strength ). . .but I’ll try to recap the salient points.

1. In the Catholic Church we have a leader, we have an authority which is from Christ and guided by the Spirit and is referenced in Scripture. Now many Protestant churches do not have such authority and thus they come in with a bias against the ‘authority’ of the Catholic Church to start with.
2. In the Catholic Church we uphold the Scripturally proven ‘communion of saints’ and we hold to the apostolic teaching (itself resting on the twin pillars of Scripture and Sacred Tradition). Many Protestants have denied these teachings and seek to claim their recent (400 year old) and man-made teachings as ‘truth’. Many of them therefore using such man-made teachings as Sola Scriptura will cherry pick Scripture and attempt to claim that those who sleep in Christ are either ‘dead’ (and thus, of no import), or ‘sleeping’ (and thus, of no import), or at most ‘in heaven’ but simply incapable of being aware of anything ‘on earth’ (and thus, of no import). Thus, the idea that Catholics will ‘pray’ to anyone in heaven but Christ is considered futile at best and blasphemous at worst. Never mind that such teaching itself is both futile and blasphemous being a matter of private interpretation and defiance of authentic Christian teaching.
3. In the Catholic Church we can acknowledge that recognition of the virtue of a given individual does not ‘take away’ from the supremacy of Christ. Many Protestants, steeped in the Calvinistic theory of the degredation of man, take offense at the idea that we consider that people ‘cooperate’ with God. For them, either a person is ‘the elect’ from the start, with no free will as such, destinated for salvation no matter what. . .or they’re marked for damnation no matter what, have no say in the matter. Further, some of these people have gone on to consider that even for the elect, as “all have sinned”, offenses are ‘covered up’ like snow on dung. . . making even those who ARE in heaven snowy poop, so to speak. . .not ‘worthy’ of heaven in any way save through God’s arbitrary decision to cover their foulness . . thus, they are still nothing but ‘dung’.

More ‘salient points’ to come.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

1. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old; most Protestant churches are considerably ‘younger’ with far less history and with much more ‘homogenuity’. The Catholic Church has covered eras and epochs, has embraced cultures and countries, for 2 millennia. It has embraced ancient and modern languages. It has withstood persecution AND prosperity. It has weathered the Dark Ages and it is weathering the Industrial Age.

What other institution can claim to have ‘been through’ so much AND in so many places? The Dynasties of Egypt, China and Japan, for example, were long in years. . .but much more limited in geographic scope and in culture were very homogenous.

The monarchies of England and Spain have existed through much of the time but they likewise are limited in geography and in culture. Even the Protestant groups which trace themselves proudly back to Elizabethan England wish to go no further back than that. . .because in doing so they must then give credit to the Catholic Church for its role in early and ‘middle’ Britain and must (if they are at all intellectually honest) find much to criticize in the roots and beginnings of their Protestant heritage.

Thus you see the emphasis is to paint anything prior to the Reformation as “Catholic” oppression, and the constant references (nearly all of them erroneous) to the Inquisition and the Crusades. . .the idea is to paint the reformers as glorious heroes rescuing the world from evil.

And thus, the attempt to show that this ‘early’ prayer to which the Pope made reference is a part of that Catholic evil from which Protestants delivered the world.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

1. Finally (everybody breathes a sigh of relief)
   taking all the points above, we see that an effort is being made to build up a false dichotomy based on these assumptions:

a. The Catholic Church’s claims to authority and its leaders are false.
b. This is shown by the Catholic Church’s own evil history.
c. It is also shown by its antiScriptural teachings.

Now, with these assumptions firmly in place, the Protestant will then argue as though everybody accepted the assumptions.

In other words, we’re expected to take these as a given. . .that the Church has no ‘real’ authority, that its evil history proves this, and that at bottom its teachings are antiScriptural.

THEN comes the ‘false dichotomy’. . .the idea that prayer (of that 'antiscriptural and false church’s teachings) is being ‘offered’ to somebody other than God and thus is putting the ‘offeree’ in opposition to God.

How, though, can a being who is united with Christ be ‘separate’ from Christ? Do we really think that Mary is separate from the Body of Christ? If she were, she wouldn’t be in heaven, would she? Do we think that when we go to heaven, we will be separated from Christ? St. Paul surely didn’t think so!!!

Those in heaven are not bound by the ‘rules’ of earth. . .and here I think is the real basis of the Protestant difficulty. They persist in thinking of those in heaven as ‘bound’ by earthly rules and as being somehow ‘separate’ from God, as we are here on earth separated from Him by sin, bound in ‘time’, etc.

So the apostles, in pointing, would be pointing at Mary in Christ and Christ in Mary. No false dichotomies here!!!

 

[Good_Fella]

What false Protestant notion would that be? It is my understanding that most if not all Protestants believe in the act of praying for and requesting the prayers of other true and faithful believers on their behalf and follow exactly what Paul instructed those early Christians to do and what James instructs below……they just don’t pray to other saints who have passed away and are no longer here on earth with them… James is using Elijah as an “example to follow”– he is not suggesting that the believers are to pray to him.

The Jews didn’t have Jesus’ blood sacrifice, on their behalf at that point in time, which we do have now.

These righteous people – to whom the Jews saw nothing wrong in asking to pray for them on their behalf……were right there with them, on earth - fulfilling God’s requirements and administering the sacrifices that were necessary at that time under the old covenant.

We now have access to His throne of grace…which the Jews simply didn’t have at that time.

And why would it or should it at that time?

Hi, Leeann. The false Protestant notion I have referred to is that Christians do not have to ask Mary to prayerfully intercede for them, whether she is still alive or deceased, since we have one Mediator in Jesus Christ who alone intercedes for us. But Catholics do not expect Mary to atone for our sins. The intercessory prayers that we ask of Mary must not be confused with the redemptive merits of Christ’s Passion and Death. Mary’s prayers on our behalf would be worthless without her Son’s sacrifice on the cross. Perhaps you have no objection to Christians asking Mary to pray for them while she is still alive on earth. But I have the impression that you share the sentiments of many Protestants that we shouldn’t turn to Mary for her prayers at all - that we should turn directly to Jesus with complete indifference to Mary and pray directly to the Father in our Lord’s name. I’m afraid I had no idea that you were concerned with the question of whether Mary was alive or dead.

There were no known Christian saints and martyrs to pray to other than Stephen, according to the Book of Acts, at the time the New Testament was written. And if the faithful did call on Stephen for his prayerful support, the practice did not necessarily have to be mentioned in any of the epistles of the apostles who were strictly concerned with other specific fundamental issues of faith and morals in their occasional pastoral letters. The New Testament isn’t a definitive compendium of articles of faith like a catechism. Moreover, the saints who have passed from this life are more alive than we are and are still active members in the mystical body of Christ. They are one with the living, still branches on the vine, and as souls they are not unconscious. So, yes, they pray for us as we who are still on earth pray for each other and ask others to pray for us including the holy ones who have gone before us to heaven.

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family [God’s whole family] in heaven and on earth is named.
Ephesians 3, 14-15

James is using Elijah as an example for us to petition the righteous for their efficacious intercessory prayers. Whether a holy one is alive or dead doesn’t matter. The fact that Elijah conversed with Jesus at his transfiguration proves that the departed saints are more alive than we are and they are still “co-workers” with God in his plan of salvation. Elijah has not yet been resurrected from the dead unlike Mary in her Assumption. The transfiguration of our Lord preceded his glorious bodily resurrection from the dead, and so the two events must not be confused. In any event, when Jesus called on his heavenly Father from the cross, the Jews who were nearby mistook that our Lord was calling on Elijah. This shows that it was a common religious practice of the Jews to call on the departed prophets for their intercession before God. If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus having rebuked the Jews for adhering to this form of devotion.

The Jews didn’t have “Jesus’ blood sacrifice on their behalf at that point in time which we have now”? If that’s the case, then how do you explain Elijah’s and Moses’ appearance with Christ in his transfiguration? The prophet and the law giver certainly weren’t damned in hell when they conversed with Jesus probably on Mount Tabor. And the event took place before Christ’s Passion and Death. If you obstinately object to the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, then you better dismiss the gospel narrative of our Lord’s transfiguration. For the two events presuppose that the merits of Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the cross embrace all time since the fall of Adam and Eve: past, present, and future.

What? The Jews had ‘no access to the throne of God’s grace’? If it weren’t for God’s grace, then there would be no Abraham, Moses, and Elijah - to name a few of God’s holy ones. There would be no old Covenant nor prophets like Jeremiah for King Zedekiah to turn to. And without the law and the prophets there would be no new Covenant fufilled in the Person of Jesus Christ. Since when does God bestow his grace on his chosen ones only after Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross? If the Jews had no access to the throne of God’s grace, then it would have been of no avail for them to offer sacrifices at Passover nor benefit from the intercessory prayers of their living prophets.

Why should God’s sovereignty be impugned by the intercession of the prophets? The Jews had “no access to the throne of God’s grace.” Right?

 

[MariaG]

1. Finally (everybody breathes a sigh of relief)
   taking all the points above, we see that an effort is being made to build up a false dichotomy based on these assumptions:

a. The Catholic Church’s claims to authority and its leaders are false.
b. This is shown by the Catholic Church’s own evil history.
c. It is also shown by its antiScriptural teachings.

Now, with these assumptions firmly in place, the Protestant will then argue as though everybody accepted the assumptions.

In other words, we’re expected to take these as a given. . .that the Church has no ‘real’ authority, that its evil history proves this, and that at bottom its teachings are antiScriptural.

Wow! Nicely put and helps me truly understand why some of the discussions go the way they do here.

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella
There were no known Christian saints and martyrs to pray to other than Stephen, according to the Book of Acts, at the time the New Testament was written. And if the faithful did call on Stephen for his prayerful support, the practice did not necessarily have to be mentioned in any of the epistles of the apostles who were strictly concerned with other specific fundamental issues of faith and morals in their occasional pastoral letters.

The New Testament isn’t a definitive compendium of articles of faith like a catechism.

You’ve got that right at least!
It’s the Holy Spirit inspired word of God….a big difference I agree!

Good Fella:
Moreover, the saints who have passed from this life are more alive than we are and are still active members in the mystical body of Christ. They are one with the living, still branches on the vine, and as souls they are not unconscious. So, yes, they pray for us as we who are still on earth pray for each other and ask others to pray for us including the holy ones who have gone before us to heaven.

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family [God’s whole family] in heaven and on earth is named.
Ephesians 3, 14-15

How does this verse you quoted above support praying to anyone else in heaven other that God/Jesus?

Paul is clearly praying to God – the reference to the “whole family in heaven and earth” is added on AFTER the mention of the Lord’s name….”of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named……just as one would say, “of Goodfella, of whom the whole family in Detroit and Chicago is named……or wherever….

Let’s take a closer look at that verse, in context with those preceding and following it:

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
**11 **according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 that **he would grant **you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 **unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus **throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Good Fella:
James is using Elijah as an example for us to petition the righteous for their efficacious intercessory prayers.

James is using Elijah as an example for all Christians to follow in their prayer lives, because he was a human, subject to like passions, just like us, but his earnest and fervent prayers were effective and been answered when he “had” prayed them….that’s why he was used as an example, someone they/we should relate too in our walk as Christians….Elijah believed…and prayed fervently….just as Abraham was deemed righteous by believing and obeying God……Elijah was considered a righteous man…an example…for us all.

James 5:

*17 Eli’jah was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. *

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella:
In any event, when Jesus called on his heavenly Father from the cross, the Jews who were nearby mistook that our Lord was calling on Elijah. This shows that it was a common religious practice of the Jews to call on the departed prophets for their intercession before God.

If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus having rebuked the Jews for adhering to this form of devotion.

By your own reasoning –

If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

Good Fella:
The Jews didn’t have “Jesus’ blood sacrifice on their behalf at that point in time which we have now”?

Well did they? Had Jesus come to earth, born of the Virgin Mary yet? Had He been crucified, had He died and been raised from the dead back in Mose’s time or Elijah’s here on earth?

They were under the old covenant – they made sacrifices and offerings that were acceptable and pleased God.

Good Fella:
If that’s the case, then how do you explain Elijah’s and Moses’ appearance with Christ in his transfiguration? The prophet and the law giver certainly weren’t damned in hell when they conversed with Jesus probably on Mount Tabor. And the event took place before Christ’s Passion and Death.

Of course they weren’t damned in hell when they conversed with Jesus….they had already been found acceptable by God…by their obedience under the old covenant, by their faith.

I’m sure you’re familiar with Hebrews 11?

32 – 40 – especially V 39: it explains how - by their “faith” and how God found them acceptable and by providing another way for us – the new covenant – in Jesus, that we will not be apart from them….that His blood sacrifice covers us all.

Good Fella:
If you obstinately object to the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, then you better dismiss the gospel narrative of our Lord’s transfiguration. For the two events presuppose that the merits of Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the cross embrace all time since the fall of Adam and Eve: past, present, and future.

Read Hebrews 11 through Goodfella, from beginning to end.

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella:
What? The Jews had ‘no access to the throne of God’s grace’? If it weren’t for God’s grace, then there would be no Abraham, Moses, and Elijah - to name a few of God’s holy ones. There would be no old Covenant nor prophets like Jeremiah for King Zedekiah to turn to. And without the law and the prophets there would be no new Covenant fufilled in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Since when does God bestow his grace on his chosen ones only after Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross?

I never said that.
If you re-read my “original” post…I mention the old covenant there.
The old covenant – with their sacrifices and offerings – was acceptable to God and He bestowed His grace on them due to their faithfulness and obedience.

Good Fella:
If the Jews had no access to the throne of God’s grace, then it would have been of no avail for them to offer sacrifices at Passover nor benefit from the intercessory prayers of their living prophets.

Again……I never said they had no access to the God’s grace….you keep stating this as IF I said that. They were under the old covenant (sacrifices/offerings) we are under the new covenant (Jesus’ sacrifice).

Good Fella:
Why should God’s sovereignty be impugned by the intercession of the prophets? The Jews had “no access to the throne of God’s grace.” Right?

You are arguing with your “own” statements Goodfella.

 

[Leeann]

Tantum ergo:

THEN comes the ‘false dichotomy’. . .the idea that prayer (of that 'antiscriptural and false church’s teachings) is being ‘offered’ to somebody other than God and thus is putting the ‘offeree’ in opposition to God.

How, though, can a being who is united with Christ be ‘separate’ from Christ? Do we really think that Mary is separate from the Body of Christ? If she were, she wouldn’t be in heaven, would she? Do we think that when we go to heaven, we will be separated from Christ? St. Paul surely didn’t think so!!!

Those in heaven are not bound by the ‘rules’ of earth. . .and here I think is the real basis of the Protestant difficulty. They persist in thinking of those in heaven as ‘bound’ by earthly rules and as being somehow ‘separate’ from God, as we are here on earth separated from Him by sin, bound in ‘time’, etc.

So the apostles, in pointing, would be pointing at Mary in Christ and Christ in Mary. No false dichotomies here!!!

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut….again….for taking the time and contributing.

While we may not all agree, even amongst some Catholic posters, there is a degree of difference in their responses, as I said before, it’s encouraging and extremely informative to be able to see all the various viewpoints and to see how one’s belief in their teachings has been absorbed and put into practice in the way of how they express those viewpoints….both from Catholic and Non-Catholic posters.

 

[Good_Fella]

You’ve got that right at least!
It’s the Holy Spirit inspired word of God….a big difference I agree!

How does this verse you quoted above support praying to anyone else in heaven other that God/Jesus?

Paul is clearly praying to God – the reference to the “whole family in heaven and earth” is added on AFTER the mention of the Lord’s name….”of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named……

James is using Elijah as an example for all Christians to follow in their prayer lives, because he was a human, subject to like passions, just like us, but his earnest and fervent prayers were effective and been answered when he “had” prayed them….that’s why he was used as an example, someone they/we should relate too in our walk as Christians….Elijah believed…and prayed fervently….just as Abraham was deemed righteous by believing and obeying God……Elijah was considered a righteous man…an example…for us all.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains definitive infallible teachings of the Popes in communion with the Episcopacy of the Universal Magisterium under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 16:12-13). Sole authority to explicitly teach and define what implicitly lies in the Scriptures has been invested in the Magisterium by Christ. The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (cf. 1 Tim 3:15): not the Bible.

Ephesians 3:14-15 reveals that we are one family united in Christ on earth and in heaven. The saints in heaven are no less active in praying for others to God than the righteous on earth are. Since the saints in heaven are supernaturally linked with the Church on earth, and we have reason to ask others to pray or intercede for us before God, we mustn’t ignore those holy ones who have gone before us and are still united with us. Considering their closeness to God in heaven, we should benefit more from the prayers of the departed saints. You are mistaken if you believe that there is no connection between the Communion of Saints and the Church. As members of Christ’s mystical body, both the living and the departed are alive together in Christ. The kingdom of heaven is in our midst.

I’m glad you agree with the Church that the faithful are called to collaborate with our Lord in the work of salvation by prayerfully interceding for others before God. What I fail to understand is how you can hold this conviction while simultaneously finding fault with Christians who hopefully ask Mary and the Saints to intercede for them with their prayers instead of praying directly to the Father in our Lord’s name. In view of this bias of yours, which is not actually concerned with the question of whether Mary is alive or dead, you cannot be consistent in your beliefs if at any time you have asked your pastor and fellow Christians to pray for you while placing your hope in their prayers. Perhaps you feel that it’s unnecessary for us to ask others for their prayers, since we can simply petition our heavenly Father directly on our own apart from the community of the faithful. It’s often difficult to ascertain what you exactly mean.

PAX :heaven:

 

[nbtb1348]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains definitive infallible teachings of the Popes in communion with the Episcopacy of the Universal Magisterium under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 16:12-13). Sole authority to explicitly teach and define what implicitly lies in the Scriptures has been invested in the Magisterium by Christ. The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (cf. 1 Tim 3:15): not the Bible.

Ephesians 3:14-15 reveals that we are one family united in Christ on earth and in heaven. The saints in heaven are no less active in praying for others to God than the righteous on earth are. Since the saints in heaven are supernaturally linked with the Church on earth, and we have reason to ask others to pray or intercede for us before God, we mustn’t ignore those holy ones who have gone before us and are still united with us. Considering their closeness to God in heaven, we should benefit more from the prayers of the departed saints. You are mistaken if you believe that there is no connection between the Communion of Saints and the Church. As members of Christ’s mystical body, both the living and the departed are alive together in Christ. The kingdom of heaven is in our midst.

I’m glad you agree with the Church that the faithful are called to collaborate with our Lord in the work of salvation by prayerfully interceding for others before God. What I fail to understand is how you can hold this conviction while simultaneously finding fault with Christians who hopefully ask Mary and the Saints to intercede for them with their prayers instead of praying directly to the Father in our Lord’s name. In view of this bias of yours, which is not actually concerned with the question of whether Mary is alive or dead, you cannot be consistent in your beliefs if at any time you have asked your pastor and fellow Christians to pray for you while placing your hope in their prayers. Perhaps you feel that it’s unnecessary for us to ask others for their prayers, since we can simply petition our heavenly Father directly on our own apart from the community of the faithful. It’s often difficult to ascertain what you exactly mean.

PAX :heaven:

The practice of prayng to Mary was, in fact invented by the RCC and has no basis in Scripture. This is true, in spite of anemic attempts to paste proof texts up against the wall, so to speak. You could spend a thousand millenia just beginning to learn the depths of experience in praying to our great Intercessor, the Lord Jesus Christ. He told us to ask anything in His name and it shall be done. He never instructed us to pray to anyone but God, and to do so is not only an affront to Him, but it shows a complete lack of understanding and experience in praying to the Savior. There may be a spirit who would lead you to pray to Mary, but it is not the HOLY Spirit, my friend.

 

[Good_Fella]

By your own reasoning –

If we search the gospels, we will find no record of Jesus or the Apostles having encouraged the early believers to pray to anyone else in heaven other that God.

Well did they? Had Jesus come to earth, born of the Virgin Mary yet? Had He been crucified, had He died and been raised from the dead back in Mose’s time or Elijah’s here on earth?

They were under the old covenant – they made sacrifices and offerings that were acceptable and pleased God.

Of course they weren’t damned in hell when they conversed with Jesus….they had already been found acceptable by God…by their obedience under the old covenant, by their faith.

I’m sure you’re familiar with Hebrews 11?

32 – 40 – especially V 39: it explains how - by their “faith” and how God found them acceptable and by providing another way for us – the new covenant – in Jesus, that we will not be apart from them….that His blood sacrifice covers us all.

Since we have no record in the New Testament of Jesus or the Apostles encouraging or condemning the practice of praying to the saints, we cannot rely on the Bible alone but must turn to the teaching authority of the Church which is guided in all truth by the Paraclete. Meanwhile Catholics still pray directly to the Father, far more often than they petition the saints in heaven for their prayerful support.

Moses and Elijah could never have appeared with Jesus without the anticipation of our Lord’s sacrificial death on the cross. And the sacrifices of the old Covenant ultimately had merit in view of their fulfillment in the one redemptive sacrifice of Jesus. The sacrifices made by the Jews covered the personal sins of the people. They did not serve to redeem mankind from original sin that bars us from entering heaven. So the righteous Jews of the old Covenant were saved by faith through grace in anticipation of the merits of Christ’s Precious Blood.

I am not arguing from my own reasoning. This is what you wrote, and I quote you:“We now have access to His throne of grace…which the Jews simply didn’t have at that time.” If this is true, I fail to see how the ancient Jews of the old Covenant were able to make sacrifices pleasing and acceptable to God in a spirit of true faith. It is by faith through grace that one is in favour with God. They couldn’t have been found righteous in their faith (the observance of the law of love and freedom that is written in every human heart) apart from cooperating with God’s grace. Jesus came to fulfill the true meaning of the law and the words of the prophets. His blood sacrifice covers all, including the Jews who were found righteous by observing the true meaning of the law by the grace of God. Jesus condemned the superficial observance of the law - the following of rules for their own sake by which one presumes that God is now in his debt for having kept the rules. The sacrifices that were made at Passover could not serve to atone for the personal sins of the people if they were performed without a true spirit of repentance. Just as an insincere observance of the law - the absence of the love of God and neighbour and a pure concern with reaping temporal rewards or averting temporal punishment - would be exercised in vain.

Anyway, we’re veering off topic. I simply question your assertion that the faithful are no longer in need of human intercessors like the ancient Jews were now that Jesus has died for our sins on the cross. By your reasoning it is futile for us to ask others to pray for us or rely on their prayers for God’s gracious intervention. That human collaboration in our Lord’s work of salvation is pointless. You did mean that the Jews had to rely on Abraham, Moses, Samuel, and Jeremiah for their intercession before God since Jesus had not yet come into the world. And so now that Jesus is the one Mediator for us all there is no reason for us to ask Mary and the Saints for their prayers.

Replying to your comments is time consuming and do prove endless, so I better ignore your future replies (or most of them) from now on although I appreciate the challenge.

PAX

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella

I’m glad you agree with the Church that the faithful are called to collaborate with our Lord in the work of salvation by prayerfully interceding for others before God. What I fail to understand is how you can hold this conviction while simultaneously finding fault with Christians who hopefully ask Mary and the Saints to intercede for them with their prayers instead of praying directly to the Father in our Lord’s name.

In view of this bias of yours, which is not actually concerned with the question of whether Mary is alive or dead, you cannot be consistent in your beliefs if at any time you have asked your pastor and fellow Christians to pray for you while placing your hope in their prayers.

I’m consistent.
You just can’t understand it that’s all.

Good Fella:

Perhaps you feel that it’s unnecessary for us to ask others for their prayers, since we can simply petition our heavenly Father directly on our own apart from the community of the faithful. It’s often difficult to ascertain what you exactly mean.

That’s what happens when someone’s “own” bias gets in the way.

 

[guanophore]

The practice of prayng to Mary was, in fact invented by the RCC and has no basis in Scripture. This is true, in spite of anemic attempts to paste proof texts up against the wall, so to speak.

Sorry, but this is not true. In fact, the practice of interceding to Mary and the saints preceeded the development of the Roman (Latin Rite) for several centuries. This practice was already active during Jesus time on earth, and the early disciples entreated the prayers of the martyrs, beginning with John the Baptist, followed by Stephen. It has nothing to do with anything “Roman”.

As for the basis in scripture, well, we read it differently!

I agree, however, it is not possible to really “prove” this practice using scripture. We see it there because it was present in the Church before the Scripture was written.

You could spend a thousand millenia just beginning to learn the depths of experience in praying to our great Intercessor, the Lord Jesus Christ. He told us to ask anything in His name and it shall be done. He never instructed us to pray to anyone but God, and to do so is not only an affront to Him, but it shows a complete lack of understanding and experience in praying to the Savior. There may be a spirit who would lead you to pray to Mary, but it is not the HOLY Spirit, my friend.

Such a statement reflects the modern fundamentalist notion of “me and Jesus only”. It is a curious innovation that seemst to disregard that Jesus founded a Church, and has a Body. Why did He do such useless things?