Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

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This thread was closed as it had gone over the 1,000 posting limit…near the end it got “de-railed” quite a bit and went off topic…so starting it up again to see if there are any more replies.

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **
zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - "*we will not *know to whom to turn"… my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?
Peace and God Bless!
 
The apostles would be advising the Pope NOT to pray to either Mary or Jesus (pbuh) but rather to direct his prayers to the One whom Jesus (pbuh) and all the other Prophets (peace be upon them all) prayed to… and in the manner how all the Prophets and these disciples themselves prayed to their Lord.

Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,"

Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"

Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."

Numbers 16:20-22 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"

Joshua 5:14 "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"

Ezekiel 9:8 "And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?"

2 Chronicles 20:18 "And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD."

Ezekiel 11:13 "And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?"

Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

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Isn’t the definition of insanity doing, saying, or asking the same thing over and over and expecting different results?😃
 
Leeann said:
This thread was closed as it had gone over the 1,000 posting limit…near the end it got “de-railed” quite a bit and went off topic…so starting it up again to see if there are any more replies.

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **
zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - “*we will not ****know to whom to turn”… *my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?
Peace and God Bless!
Click to expand...
I think they would say, “Turn to Jesus…and to know how to turn to Jesus, you need to turn to Mary;because:) she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish!”:yup:
 
Zooey said:
I think they would say, “Turn to Jesus…and to know how to turn to Jesus, you need to turn to Mary;because:) she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish!”:yup:
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Zooey,

You seem very supportive of the Catholic faith but I believe you are a Methodist. What is stopping you from converting?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Isn’t the definition of insanity doing, saying, or asking the same thing over and over and expecting different results?😃
Click to expand...
Perhaps…however, in this case, there have been 4 new posters - ones I don’t believe who responded in the original thread - and they have all responded differently.

hamba2han
John7
Zooey
Pwrlftr

🤷
 
Yes, they’ve responded differently from each other–but no, they haven’t responded differently from anybody else on your earlier thread.

Hambla as a nonChristian doesn’t think Jesus is God anyway.
(On the first thread, you had nonChristians say the same thing).
Zooey, a nonCatholic Christian, says exactly what we Catholics said to you on the other thread. . .Mary points the way to Jesus, therefore, the apostles would have pointed to her to ‘show the way’. (On the first thread, you had nonCatholic Christians say the same thing.)
Pwrfltr actually didn’t address the thread topic at all but asked Zooey a question, thus going 'off topic. (On the first thread, you had people doing the same thing.)
John, a newbie (welcome, John), responded and then with an ‘oops’ in the next post, looks as though he reconsidered his answer. (On the first thread, you had people answer and later on, reconsider their first answer).
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Yes, they’ve responded differently from each other–but no, they haven’t responded differently from anybody else on your earlier thread.

Hambla as a nonChristian doesn’t think Jesus is God anyway.
(On the first thread, you had nonChristians say the same thing).
Zooey, a nonCatholic Christian, says exactly what we Catholics said to you on the other thread. . .Mary points the way to Jesus, therefore, the apostles would have pointed to her to ‘show the way’. (On the first thread, you had nonCatholic Christians say the same thing.)
Pwrfltr actually didn’t address the thread topic at all but asked Zooey a question, thus going 'off topic. (On the first thread, you had people doing the same thing.)
John, a newbie (welcome, John), responded and then with an ‘oops’ in the next post, looks as though he reconsidered his answer. (On the first thread, you had people answer and later on, reconsider their first answer).
Click to expand...
and your point is what exactly…???
 
My point is that you had a 1000 plus post thread, the vast majority of which was engaged in people pointing out to you that the whole premise of your ‘question’ is based on a false dichotomy. Now YOU may have felt that was going ‘off topic’ since obviously despite all the evidence you still feel this is a ‘real’ question, but all I can say is this:

If you think that you’re going to get different results with this thread than you did with the first, (like suddenly all of us Catholics will realize how ‘wrong’ we are), then you really do need seriously to look at my first post here about a certain definition. 😃

You may get ‘new’ people here, but the proportions are going to be the same–the vast majority of people are going to keep telling you, as charitably as possible, that your premise is faulty and there is no question of there being a ‘competition’ or ‘either/or’ between Mary and Jesus. . .and that the** Pope is not putting Mary ‘over’ or 'ahead of" Jesus in this prayer. **

But hey, if it helps you to realize the truth at last, I’m up for it.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
My point is that you had a 1000 plus post thread, the vast majority of which was engaged in people pointing out to you that the whole premise of your ‘question’ is based on a false dichotomy. Now YOU may have felt that was going ‘off topic’ since obviously despite all the evidence you still feel this is a ‘real’ question, but all I can say is this:

If you think that you’re going to get different results with this thread than you did with the first, (like suddenly all of us Catholics will realize how ‘wrong’ we are), then you really do need seriously to look at my first post here about a certain definition. 😃

You may get ‘new’ people here, but the proportions are going to be the same–the vast majority of people are going to keep telling you, as charitably as possible, that your premise is faulty and there is no question of there being a ‘competition’ or ‘either/or’ between Mary and Jesus. . .and that the** Pope is not putting Mary ‘over’ or 'ahead of" Jesus in this prayer. **

But hey, if it helps you to realize the truth at last, I’m up for it.
Click to expand...
Well…it’s interesting to see new posters and what they have to say with regards to the thread question. While their viewpoints may be similar, they may express them differently and that in itself may lead to a better understanding of why/how they have come to their conclusions…I have no problem with that at all. 🙂
 
It is true that some people seem to be able to cut right to the heart of a problem and give a “Wow, now I get it” kind of answer. (Actually, I thought Zooey’s response pretty much was a ‘wowser’ type. . .obviously I agree with her 🙂 but even if I had not, the way she said it might have nudged me to think again.)

So Zooey’s set the bar pretty high–and very early in the thread too. That is very encouraging for all of us, I agree.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
It is true that some people seem to be able to cut right to the heart of a problem and give a “Wow, now I get it” kind of answer. (Actually, I thought Zooey’s response pretty much was a ‘wowser’ type. . .obviously I agree with her 🙂 but even if I had not, the way she said it might have nudged me to think again.)

So Zooey’s set the bar pretty high–and very early in the thread too. That is very encouraging for all of us, I agree.
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** I am a non-christian. I believe that Mary needs to be respected very much. But she is human. Jesus never told any one to pray to him or his mother in his lifetime. We do not see any such example of his life in the four gospels.

We do not see any one praying to a human or a prophet in the bible OT. All have been praying to the One God only. The explicit teaching of the Torah is to worship the Only One God and never to have any other God beside that One God. So nobody prayed to any one except the One God. Even jesus prayed to Him alone. That is mentioned in the gospel.

Before his arrest, he was praying to some One in the garden and telling all his friends (disciples) to pray too. Surely he did not tell them to pray to himself. That was the best ime to tell the disciples to pray to Jesus if at all he was prayer worthy.

We see that he was praying to the father. He was telling the friends to pray to the father. He and his disciples never prayed to Mary in their life time, not any single example is to found of such things in the past, real time.

So the question is not good one about praying to Jesus or Mary. Please all pray to Father only. But love His children as much as you can. There is no limit of love for Jesus and his mother.**
 
Hello hamba2han and Planten

Thank you for taking the time to post, however your comments and scripture references are irrelevant in regards to this particular thread question, as its context offers two options of to whom the Pope, who is a professing Christian, should be turning too…….Mary or Jesus.
 
Zooey said:
I think they would say, “Turn to Jesus…and to know how to turn to Jesus, you need to turn to Mary;because:) she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish!”:yup:
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I wonder why any of the Apostles themselves, never practiced or encouraged or preached or taught - "you need to turn to Mary - because she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish - if this is what we as Christians are to be doing now.
 
Leeann said:
I wonder why any of the Apostles themselves, never practiced or encouraged or preached or taught - "you need to turn to Mary - because she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish - if this is what we as Christians are to be doing now.
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We can’t keep on seperating the body from the head.

If we could only understand that Christ is one, and theres is no use in separating the body from the head, or the different parts of the body from the one body, we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

If we could only understand that this body is the living church that grows in understanding itself (like how a body grows and understand each body’s function), we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

If we understand that there is communication in the family of God, we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

If we understand that those who died before us and are in heaven are not really dead, and doesn’t cease to be members in the one body of Christ, and that they are not really dead, but more alive than us, then we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.
 
planten said:
** I am a non-christian. I believe that Mary needs to be respected very much. But she is human. Jesus never told any one to pray to him or his mother in his lifetime. We do not see any such example of his life in the four gospels.**

We do not see any one praying to a human or a prophet in the bible OT. All have been praying to the One God only. The explicit teaching of the Torah is to worship the Only One God and never to have any other God beside that One God. So nobody prayed to any one except the One God. Even jesus prayed to Him alone. That is mentioned in the gospel.

Before his arrest, he was praying to some One in the garden and telling all his friends (disciples) to pray too. Surely he did not tell them to pray to himself. That was the best ime to tell the disciples to pray to Jesus if at all he was prayer worthy.

We see that he was praying to the father. He was telling the friends to pray to the father. He and his disciples never prayed to Mary in their life time, not any single example is to found of such things in the past, real time.

So the question is not good one about praying to Jesus or Mary. Please all pray to Father only. But love His children as much as you can. There is no limit of love for Jesus and his mother.
Click to expand...
I told you before to read about the stages of God’s revelation to man, the diffrent covenants of God with men. I also told you to understand that christians do not pit the Old Testament against the New Testament.
 
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