Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him ..Mary or Jesus?

[Leeann]

We can’t keep on seperating the body from the head.

If we could only understand that Christ is one, and theres is no use in separating the body from the head, or the different parts of the body from the one body, we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

If we could only understand that this body is the living church that grows in understanding itself (like how a body grows and understand each body’s function), we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

If we understand that there is communication in the family of God, we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

If we understand that those who died before us and are in heaven are not really dead, and doesn’t cease to be members in the one body of Christ, and that they are not really dead, but more alive than us, then we wouldn’t be asking a false dichotomy like this.

**If we could only understand that the Catholic Church’s teachings themselves, with regards to whom we should be turning too or going through in prayer, as is evident from to whom the Pope is turning too,…if these teachings were validated by what the Apostles or Jesus himself taught, **then there would be no need for what you believe to be a “false dichotomy” being posted.

 

[planten]

I told you before to read about the stages of God’s revelation to man, the diffrent covenants of God with men. I also told you to understand that christians do not pit the Old Testament against the New Testament.

**There is no need to pit one against the other. I am not trying to pit OT against NT. But you cannot ignore the OT. The Catholics take advantage from the OT in many matters. But they ignore the important teachings of the Torah and the law too. Then what use is bible OT to the Catholics. Why they have got the bibleNT tied up with the bibleOT? It is like putting new wine in old winesacks.

The teachings of the bible OT are also from God. They are not abrogated. Jesus also followed those teachings. But the present day followers of Jesus do not follow Jesus.

I have every right to present the teachings of bibleOT to all the christians because they (Jews) were the predecessors of the early christians (and still they are.)**

 

[Non_Serviam]

Actually the Apostles would have pointed the Pope to the Father, since that’s who Jesus said to address in our prayers. In doing so, the Apostles would have said Jesus was the way to the Father and to pray in His name. We have no record of the Apostles doing it any other way-we have later opinions, but no contemporary records.

 

[MarcoPolo]

We have no record of the Apostles doing it any other way-we have later opinions, but no contemporary records.

Do you agree that asking for intercession (instead of going “straight” to the Father) is praying? And do you know there are Scriptural instances of an apostle doing just that? That’s all praying to the saints is!

 

[Peter_J]

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

Hi Leeann,

I guess my answer is that the Pope’s statement ought not to be taken so literally. It’s poetic language.

 

[Peter_J]

Do you agree that asking for intercession (instead of going “straight” to the Father) is praying?

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. If I may quote from Question 83 of the Summa Theologica:

Objection 3: Further, if we pray to any of the saints, this is only because they are united to God. Now some yet living in this world, or even some who are in Purgatory, are closely united to God by grace, and yet we do not pray to them. Therefore neither should we pray to the saints who are in Paradise.

Reply to Objection 3: Those who are in this world or in Purgatory, do not yet enjoy the vision of the Word, so as to be able to know what we think or say. Wherefore we do not seek their assistance by praying to them, but ask it of the living by speaking to them.

 

[Zooey]

I wonder why any of the Apostles themselves, never practiced or encouraged or preached or taught - "you need to turn to Mary - because she’s the only one who got it right from start to finish - if this is what we as Christians are to be doing now.

Hey!! Where did you find that:wink: copy of the “Book of the Complete Sermons of All the Apostles”??
I want one!! :yup: :yup:

 

[Non_Serviam]

Do you agree that asking for intercession (instead of going “straight” to the Father) is praying? And do you know there are Scriptural instances of an apostle doing just that? That’s all praying to the saints is!

Going back to the OP, who asked “to whom the Apostles would have pointed if the Pope had ask them to whom he should turn” the answer is still God the Father via Jesus. The Apostles never suggested that nations should turn to the heart of any intercessor they asked to intercede for them, nor did they suggest they were unworthy of the intercessors’ intercession (having been made worthy through Christ) nor did they suggest the intercessors offered them any form of protection. This goes beyond a simple request for prayers, don’t you agree?

By using such language it would seem that not only was the Pope confused about whom he should be offering prayers to, but also about what effect the atonement had on his standing before God. Peter, Paul and the others could have cleared that up for him rather quickly.

That’s all not setting aside Scripture for tradition is.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m with Zooey on this:

Leeann and non serviam (the Miltonian reference in the name is most apposite methinks) both seem to have access to some sort of document which lists all the teachings(oral sermons) of all the apostles so that they can state, categorically, that the apostles would ‘never’ have taught anything other than the post 1600 AD position of ‘prayer is to Jesus/Father ALONE’.

I want to see that document because it directly ‘contradicts’ all Christian teaching for the first 1600 years of Christianity. Yes, I said teaching. Scripture itself does not claim it ‘alone’ contains all the teaching of Jesus --in fact, it flat-out says it does NOT. Neither does it claim to be the sole source for Christian teaching.

So if I don’t see that document (the one which Leeann and NS MUST have in order to make their ‘authoritative’ statements from their respective 'churches of 1"), then I’ll feel free to continue to state that the authentic and authorative teachings of Christianity are what I will continue to follow, not the revisions and misinterpretations of some Christians who have gone sadly astray and who I pray will find the grace to put aside their stubborn pride and hate of the Church in order to embrace the Truth.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Going back to the OP, who asked “to whom the Apostles would have pointed if the Pope had ask them to whom he should turn” the answer is still God the Father via Jesus. The Apostles never suggested that nations should turn to the heart of any intercessor they asked to intercede for them, nor did they suggest they were unworthy of the intercessors’ intercession (having been made worthy through Christ) nor did they suggest the intercessors offered them any form of protection. This goes beyond a simple request for prayers, don’t you agree?

By using such language it would seem that not only was the Pope confused about whom he should be offering prayers to, but also about what effect the atonement had on his standing before God. Peter, Paul and the others could have cleared that up for him rather quickly.

That’s all not setting aside Scripture for tradition is.

See, this is where the false dichotomy comes in. It is not Mary versus Jesus. It is not the Corinthians versus God. When the crowds were stumbling over each other hoping Peter’s shadow would pass over them, were they afire for Peter? Or Jesus? When Saul was persecuting the Christians, did Jesus appear to him and say, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute them?” Of course not. And you know how the passage really goes.

Paul most certainly encourages the members of the Body of Christ to pray for each other. We are told to bear one anothers burdens. We are told to encourage each other, build each other up. We are told to love one another.

The difference between Catholic and Protestant theology on this is as follows: Catholics do not believe those in heaven suddenly are relieved of their duties to love and pray “day and night” and pray for other members of the Body of Christ just because they are in heaven. All the more are those closely united to God loving of the Body! Protestant theology, often unknowingly, effectively separates the Body of Christ by saying the concept of intercession desists once a person reaches heaven. Catholic theology maintains the oneness of Christ’s body, whereas Protestant theology renders it divided.

 

[Non_Serviam]

I’m with Zooey on this:

Leeann and non serviam (the Miltonian reference in the name is most apposite methinks) both seem to have access to some sort of document which lists all the teachings(oral sermons) of all the apostles so that they can state, categorically, that the apostles would ‘never’ have taught anything other than the post 1600 AD position of ‘prayer is to Jesus/Father ALONE’.

I want to see that document because it directly ‘contradicts’ all Christian teaching for the first 1600 years of Christianity. Yes, I said teaching. Scripture itself does not claim it ‘alone’ contains all the teaching of Jesus --in fact, it flat-out says it does NOT. Neither does it claim to be the sole source for Christian teaching.

So if I don’t see that document (the one which Leeann and NS MUST have in order to make their ‘authoritative’ statements from their respective 'churches of 1"), then I’ll feel free to continue to state that the authentic and authorative teachings of Christianity are what I will continue to follow, not the revisions and misinterpretations of some Christians who have gone sadly astray and who I pray will find the grace to put aside their stubborn pride and hate of the Church in order to embrace the Truth.

Tantum Ergo,

Let me ask you this:

When did the Catholic church become THE CHURCH OF WHAT THE APOSTLES MIGHT HAVE SAID?

I’m confident in my statement because I can show where the Apostles actually said what I’m claiming they would say. You feel that conjecture, speculation and mockery is an equivalent argument to documented statements.

I’ve discussed this topic in other threads and concede that it is legitimate for a Catholic to accept this practice on the basis of current Catholic hierarchical authority-what isn’t kosher is to read it back into Apostolic practice when it isn’t there. There are references both in Scripture and and in extrabiblical sources to doctrines like the Real Presence, baptism and a host of others-praying to saints isn’t in that category. Deal with the evidence that exists not what you wish existed.

A number of beliefs and practices in current Catholicism fall under the umbrella of “development of doctrine”. Unless you can prove otherwise, praying to saints is one of them.

As for the ad hominem attacks, they tend to be the refuge of those who’ve run out of arguments related to the topic at hand. If that’s your situation, I’d suggest accepting the solution I’m offering and moving on-otherwise please come back with something concrete that can be discussed.

 

[Non_Serviam]

See, this is where the false dichotomy comes in. It is not Mary versus Jesus. It is not the Corinthians versus God. When the crowds were stumbling over each other hoping Peter’s shadow would pass over them, were they afire for Peter? Or Jesus? When Saul was persecuting the Christians, did Jesus appear to him and say, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute them?” Of course not. And you know how the passage really goes.

Paul most certainly encourages the members of the Body of Christ to pray for each other. We are told to bear one anothers burdens. We are told to encourage each other, build each other up. We are told to love one another.

The difference between Catholic and Protestant theology on this is as follows: Catholics do not believe those in heaven suddenly are relieved of their duties to love and pray “day and night” and pray for other members of the Body of Christ just because they are in heaven. All the more are those closely united to God loving of the Body! Protestant theology, often unknowingly, effectively separates the Body of Christ by saying the concept of intercession desists once a person reaches heaven. Catholic theology maintains the oneness of Christ’s body, whereas Protestant theology renders it divided.

There is a very real dichotomy-there is no record the Apostles ever pointed anyone to pray to anyone other than God. Period. No NT reference to it, no early extrabiblical reference to it. The are numerous references to them pointing people to God. On sheer statistical probability, the answer is obvious.

What I don’t understand is why so many catholics continue to make the charge that I’m saying the saints in heaven don’t pray-I’ve stipulated repeatedly that I accept that they do. What I don’t accept is us praying to them. What I accept even less is the language used in the example given by the OP.

I acknowledge that modern Catholics would feel free to point to either/or with Jesus and Mary-what isn’t proven is that the Apostles would do the same. The OP did ask what the Apostles would do, and if this is a case of development of doctrine, one can’t read back the later practice in an anachronistic fashion, can they?

Thoughts?

 

[Peter_J]

Going back to the OP, who asked “to whom the Apostles would have pointed if the Pope had ask them to whom he should turn” the answer is still God the Father via Jesus. The Apostles never suggested that nations should turn to the heart of any intercessor they asked to intercede for them,

True, they didn’t say to do so. But they themselves did so: “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.” (1 Timothy 2: 1-2)

Should we do as St. Paul asked? Absolutely. But can we not also imitate him by saying to our fellow Christians “Please pray and intercede for such-and-such intention”?

nor did they suggest they were unworthy of the intercessors’ intercession (having been made worthy through Christ)

See what I said before, about the Pope’s statement being poetic (and not to be taken so literally).

nor did they suggest the intercessors offered them any form of protection.

True. The Apostles neither affirmed nor denied that kind of protection.

This goes beyond a simple request for prayers, don’t you agree?

In a sense, you are correct. When we make a request for prayer of a saint in heaven, we are not just simply making a request for prayer, we are in fact praying to him or her.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Um. . .Non Serviam. . I simply reiterated Zooey’s tongue-in-cheek speculation that y’all had some kind of document about the apostolic teaching. If you find that mocking, I apologize. However. . .

It is not "I’ who claimed that the Catholic Church was the "Church of what the apostles might have said’. It is Leeann and you who stated that the apostles did NOT teach anything about Mary in their sermons. . .so it is really you who are claiming to be the authorities of ‘what the apostles might have said’, isn’t that so?
Who is really the one making conjectures?

Please show me, again, the passage that states that ‘Scripture alone’ contains all the teachings of Jesus? (which by extension would be all the teachings of the apostles plus anything the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles to teach). You can’t, because that passage does not exist. Nowhere in Christian teaching until the 16th century do we find anybody insisting that "if it isn’t in the Bible, it was never taught and it doesn’t count as a "jesus teaching.’.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. I think a large part of the problem is that the phrase “praying to Mary and the saints” is very often ripped out of the context of the rest of Aquinas’ thought.

I myself don’t claim to be an expert on Thomism or Scholasticism, but one important point of it is that, for Aquinas, we are “praying to” the saints every time we ask them for prayers, hence Christians had already been “praying to the saints” for centuries (even if they didn’t call it that).

 

[MarcoPolo]

What I don’t understand is why so many catholics continue to make the charge that I’m saying the saints in heaven don’t pray-I’ve stipulated repeatedly that I accept that they do.

Ok good! So when I told you that when we “pray” to saints in heaven we are merely asking them to intercede for us. Catholics do not pray to saints as an “end”, you understand. Of course the Apostles would reject that. But that’s a separate issue altogether than the Catholic concept of praying to saints, which simply means asking them for intercession like we would with each other here on earth. So we agree?

 

[Non_Serviam]

True, they didn’t say to do so. But they themselves did so: “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.” (1 Timothy 2: 1-2)

Should we do as St. Paul asked? Absolutely. But can we not also imitate him by saying to our fellow Christians “Please pray and intercede for such-and-such intention”?

See what I said before, about the Pope’s statement being poetic (and not to be taken so literally).

True. The Apostles neither affirmed nor denied that kind of protection.

In a sense, you are correct. When we make a request for prayer of a saint in heaven, we are not just simply making a request for prayer, we are in fact praying to him or her.

I have no problem with Intercession and requests for it as we see in the NT and the early Christian writings-the same people that were reading an Epistle were asked to pray for each other and to ask each other for prayer.

It may be poetic-but one can have bad theology in good poetry, and why not take the opportunity to clearly teach what the Apostles taught given the misunderstandings that are evident in the church.

Thank you for seeing some of the distinctions I’m making-it certainly makes it easier to discuss things when the target doesn’t keep shifting.

 

[Emil3]

This thread was closed as it had gone over the 1,000 posting limit…near the end it got “de-railed” quite a bit and went off topic…so starting it up again to see if there are any more replies.

**Prayer of Pope to Mary: To Whom Would the Apostles have pointed him …Mary or Jesus? **

---

zenit.org/article-23987?l=english

Excerpt from this article:

The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.

“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.

With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”

>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Question:

**In view of the Pope saying - “*we will not ****know to whom to turn”… *my question is, if the Apostles were standing next to the Pope, to whom do you think they would be advising him to “turn” too …to Mary…or Jesus?

---

Peace and God Bless!

I can see how a thread of this nature can go far-afield and–in essence–leave the question unanswered. Though I love the Holy Mother with all my heart & respect Her exalted place, let us remember that, indeed, through the centuries She has been placed in an ever-increasing exalted position which has resulted in statements–(NOT BINDING OR EX-CATHEDRA)–that she is CO-Mediatrix or Co-Redemer with Christ. ‘Jesuitical’ thinking, of which I am a product, is a wonderful thing but it’s tendency to forms of ‘sophistry’ can let one take any side of an arguement and be most convincing in it’s explanation of black really is white—(remember George Orwell’s 1984…“WAR IS PEACE”)? Of course, in the setting of Christ’s time, if the Pope implored Mary in that manner in front of Christ & some of the apostles in front of the temple or in the marketplace someone would have said…“fellah–who do you think this guy-(JESUS)-is”!? We must remember that this is a prayer written many years ago by a Blessed Italian man dedicated, no doubt, to the Holy Mother. Of course both that man and the Pope knew that we turn to Christ for ultimate salvation; it is a prayer of honor, humbleness, and supplication to Christ’s Mother. HOWEVER, I wish the Pope HAD NOT USED IT! It gives fuel to the anti-Mary element & sometimes, not without reason, it presents confusion in the mind & hearts of sincere/good men & women–(Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant). I pray–for the good of our Catholic Church–that this Co-Redeemer ‘appelation’ is never taught by the ordinary Magisterium or pronounced Ex-cathedra; while that would mean–in heaven it is true–alot of souls on Earth would be confused & even lost. No need on this topic to quote long biblical passages; what the Pope did may cause confusion to many, it does not to the informed Catholic. The only problem, ladies & gentlemen, not everyone is SO INFORMED and therefore, statements like this may not be the most advisable ones to make when we are trolling to get more souls into the TRUE CHURCH!

 

[Non_Serviam]

Um. . .Non Serviam. . I simply reiterated Zooey’s tongue-in-cheek speculation that y’all had some kind of document about the apostolic teaching. If you find that mocking, I apologize. However. . .

It is not "I’ who claimed that the Catholic Church was the "Church of what the apostles might have said’. It is Leeann and you who stated that the apostles did NOT teach anything about Mary in their sermons. . .so it is really you who are claiming to be the authorities of ‘what the apostles might have said’, isn’t that so?
Who is really the one making conjectures?

Please show me, again, the passage that states that ‘Scripture alone’ contains all the teachings of Jesus? (which by extension would be all the teachings of the apostles plus anything the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles to teach). You can’t, because that passage does not exist. Nowhere in Christian teaching until the 16th century do we find anybody insisting that "if it isn’t in the Bible, it was never taught and it doesn’t count as a "jesus teaching.’.

It wasn’t so much Zooey’s comment as some of the other inferences, but we’ll let it go.

First, I never said the Apostles didn’t teach anything about Mary-a glance at the Gospels would put that ridiculous notion to rest. What did say is we only have biblical and early extrabiblical writings that show the Apostles pointing to God the Father via Christ.

You are attempting to affirm the idea that the Apostles “might” have said something about Mary being someone to pray to is as solid an argument as actual documented statements. That in fact is conjecture and simply doesn’t hold up to the same weight as actual apostolic quotations.

Likewise, I never said all the teachings of Jesus were contained in Scripture (John also addresses that notion in his Gospel) I do have quotes of Jesus teaching that prayer should be offered to the Father, and that He is the way to the Father-I also have quotes of the Apostles teaching the same message. An hypothesis that they taught something else without proof to back it up is an unproven hypothesis and gets stopped at the door of the debate hall.

It comes down to you arguing what you believe the Apostles should have taught according to your doctrinal preference vs what the historical record shows the Apostles did teach.

I’m sorry if the explanation of development of doctrine after the Apostolic period isn’t to your taste, but it’s what you’ve got at this point. The Catholic church accepts that it says and does things today that the Apostles didn’t, why can’t you?

 

[Non_Serviam]

Ok good! So when I told you that when we “pray” to saints in heaven we are merely asking them to intercede for us. Catholics do not pray to saints as an “end”, you understand. Of course the Apostles would reject that. But that’s a separate issue altogether than the Catholic concept of praying to saints, which simply means asking them for intercession like we would with each other here on earth. So we agree?

Not so fast, two things:

1. A number of Catholic prayers to Saints do indeed have an “end” other than intercession. They ask the saint to find a lost item, sell a house, or heal a body part. The prayers are quite clear in the language used and some even clearly state that the Saint himself has the ability to do so of his own volition. Are you willing to declare these prayers to be theologically incorrect and not to be used in order to preserve this proposed entente?
2. Just because the dead saints pray, doesn’t mean that we are to ask them for prayers. The papal conclave makes Popes, but one shouldn’t ask them for this, should one?

While it is tempting to agree, the case for Apostolic sanction of the practice still isn’t made-sorry, MP.