Prayer request that police actions be held to accountability and transparency

[Lee3]

Usually I am sympathetic to police, but when I saw this article it made my blood boil.
It is from Melbourne, Australia where there is a full Covid lock down just now easing.
Two elderly women were sitting on a park bench and six police officers surrounded them threatening them with arrest for breaching the rules.
When one of the elderly plainly and politely asked for what reason she would be arrested and then attempted to film the interaction, one of the officers snatched the phone from her hands.

Police often do a hard job, but trying to stop accountability and transparency of abuse of powers means police actions will go unchecked.
Police should never be allowed to take phones or cameras and prevent things being in the open.

What type of a world is the western world fact becoming. No different from North Korea??!

It is like there is no respect for elders anymore. It’s a strange logic to me to be on one hand extremely concerned with just the physical health of elderly from Covid, but at the same time finding it ok to abuse and intimidate them emotionally/psychologically with that “end goal” in mind of protecting them physically?

It’s just bizarre.

Police officer snatches phone off elderly and threaten to arrest her in Melbourne | Daily Mail Online

 

[umamibella]

Why, just because they are older, doesnt give them the right to break the law does it? The lockdown here is not easing yet.

They knew why they were being arrested, The laws are all over our media. A person would have to live under a rock not to know.
They are not wearing masks for starters and are probably part of the protests ongoing over the weekend.

If people did not do what these two are doing, if people follow the rules we will be out of this lockdown so much sooner.

 

[Lee3]

@umamibella

The issue is not about them being arrested, it’s about the police snatching the phone off them to avoid public scrutiny, transparency and any potential repurcussions and accountability for the way they handled things.
If things can’t be filmed, is this any different from North Korea or China which the Aussie media loves to criticise so much for their lack of transparency?
If things can’t be filmed, what is there to keep the police accountable?

Regarding the arrests themselves, it could also be argued that it was overkill.
Does it take 6 police to arrest two little old ladies?
The whole purpose of this full lockdown is apparently meant to be for the purpose of keeping the elderly safe.
Is safety of the physical for the elderly the only thing that matters though?
If they have little time left on earth anyway, shouldn’t they be afforded some fresh air & social contact?
So much is placed solely on the physical, yet in the meantime the elderly are sadly dropping like flies in Melbourne so are any of those policies been successful?

Besides, of course elderly people should be treated differently by police. That doesn’t mean not ever arrested, but they should always be treated gently, and talked to kindly and respectfully. Never intimidated, grabbed, pushed, stuff snatched etc…

As for you stating they were part of the protests, that’s just a massive assumption.

 

[umamibella]

The issue is not about them being arrested, it’s about the police snatching the phone off them to avoid public scrutiny, transparency and any potential repurcussions and accountability for the way they handled things.

The police can legally do that. These women were illegally protesting at an illegal protest gathering.

Itis very different from NK and China.

The whole purpose of this full lockdown is apparently meant to be for the purpose of keeping the elderly safe.

It is to eliminate covid, for everyone. It is spreading fastest through young adults.

Regarding the arrests themselves, it could also be argued that it was overkill.
Does it take 6 police to arrest two little old ladies?

Police were all over the Shrine of Remembrance to stop the illegal protests. Are you in Victoria? There has been chatter on social media for a few weeks about the protests. Didnt you see the pregnant woman arrested this week?

If they have little time left on earth anyway, shouldn’t they be afforded some fresh air & social contact?

Yes within the rules like the rest of us here in lockdown. They are not more special then the rest of us in Victoria.
They should also be wearing masks.

So much is placed solely on the physical, yet in the meantime the elderly are sadly dropping like flies in Melbourne so are any of those policies been successful?

Seen the latest graph?

As for you stating they were part of the protests, that’s just a massive assumption.

Why are they at the Shrine, at the protest and carrying protest placards if they are not protesting?
Why are they out, not wearing masks, sitting in a park in stage 4 lockdown?
Personally the placards give it away and other news reports state they were part of the protest.
I did not make that up.

btw another person filmed it, thats how we get the footage.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Since this turned into a discussion thread, I moved it to Social Justice. Prayer Intentions is for prayers only, no discussion allowed.

Lee3, if you want to start another Prayer Intentions thread in that category just for prayers, please feel free, but also I would suggest you frame your prayer request in a manner that isn’t going to trigger a political debate. Such as just a general request for everyone to act fairly, be treated justly, especially our elderly.

 

[Lee3]

Why are they at the Shrine, at the protest and carrying protest placards if they are not protesting?

I didn’t see this in the video. Even if you are right, that still provides no reasoning/justification on this planet for five police to surround and/or arrest two old ladies.
What did they think, that the two grannies may overpower just one or two officers?

The police can legally do that. These women were illegally protesting at an illegal protest gathering.

Itis very different from NK and China.

If it’s legal for police to do that then it shouldn’t be. How can police be held accountable and honest if the means to hold them accountable are removed?

It is no different from China/Hk, not even by one percent.
China can in one second also declare that HK protesting is illegal, and therefore that they can legally take the phones/cameras at an “illegal protest” to cover up the police actions.
In fact I think they already did.
Melbourne is quickly becoming a totalitarian state.

I’m not sure why in one circumstance you perceive these actions as ok/alright/Godly etc (in Melbourne), but those same actions in a different circumstance (Hong Kong) you perceive them as bad?
Is it because you support one cause and not the other?

We can’t pick and choose what’s right/wrong for police to do according to which cause or views we support or which country we have an affinity with.
Obviously, China believes that their ways and perceptions are just as right as Daniel believes his are.
One believes that they have to be totalitarian to protect the health of people, the other believes they have to be totalitarian to protect their national identity.

My point is that everyone in their own world view thinks they are right.

btw another person filmed it, thats how we get the footage.

And thank God for that. I have to wonder if there wasn’t an element of divine intervention that it was caught on camera an officer trying to take a phone to stop transparency.
However, in some cases, the police will/have grab that bystanders phone too.

This is fine with you?
So you consider it an issue when a country like China grabs phones/cameras to avoid some police action being publicly seen but when it’s done in Melbourne you are ok with it?

I will never support it being legal for police to prevent people filming their actions, never and that goes for any causes, any circumstances, whether I support those causes or disagree with those causes.

Or how do we ensure transparency?
You know that police have covered things up before and I’m sure your not so naive to believe that police will always hold their own to account.

 

[Lee3]

quote=“umamibella, post:4, topic:624585”]
They are not more special then the rest of us in Victoria.
[/quote]

I wasn’t raised to think/talk this way about the elderly.
To think this way indicates a cultural problem that is beyond the scope of this thread.
Elderly should be treasured and seen as special, and I think one thing that Covid has exposed is that the elderly are undervalued or even seen as a burden by some in Australia.

 

[Lee3]

Thanks Babywitch

 

[umamibella]

I didn’t see this in the video. Even if you are right, t

Are you in Victoria, there are no exceptions in lockdown, the virus doesnt discriminate. You still dont get it was a protest space with lots of police breaking up a protest and sending people back home where they are supposed to be in lockdown,

If it’s legal for

Police can seize phones, and are doing so, along with ipads because that is how the info about these protests ia being spread.

It is no different from China/Hk, not even by one percent.

Its very different because we are in lockdown. The premier of this state took this action to stop the virus spreading out of control and to the rest of the country.

I’m not sure why in one

I wont discuss what is going on elsewhere. These women were not hurt but the police did not muck around either. You play, be prepared to pay. Want to break lock down law, hope you have the money to pay the fines,

And thank God for that. I have to wonder if there wasn’t an element of divine intervention

Not divine intervention , just unthinking persons inciting public unrest and hoping to get it on film. So why not watch the film of younger people being arrested at the Shrine.

There is no outcry about that is there?

This is fine with

I am not sure where you are, why not say and state your agenda.
I am in Victoria, we have had one of the longest global lockdowns. We are all working hard to do the right thing and stop this virus. There are people here who think the virus is a conspiracy and that it is not true.
We have a high death rate and a really virulent strain of covid. I want to get back to mass , my friends want to get back to sport and normal life. I dont want the hospitals unavailable because half the staff are in iso, and half the wards are shut. I want young people, including my kids, to regain their lives, jobs, education.

There is only 1 way we are going to get there, that is to stay the course with these marathon lockdowns and curfews and get to Christmas with our young people and our old people, together as a family.

Or how do

Well it aint covered up is it, because the police knew well enough that others were filming it.

 

[umamibella]

Ran out of room on that post so

I would also say have you seen the pregnant woman being arrested this week? Police showed her no mercy either , and took her husband’s phone as well.

She later apologised for being such a ###

 

[umamibella]

I wasn’t raised to think/talk this way about the elderly.
To think this way indicates a cultural problem that is beyond the scope of this thread.
Elderly should be treasured and seen as special, and I think one thing that Covid has exposed is that the elderly are undervalued or even seen as a burden by some in Australia.

My goodness , Age does not suddenly turn the guilty innocent. Just because you are 60 or 70, that doesnt make you frail and innocent when engaged in law breaking.

The elderly engaging in this behaviour should be treasuring themselves and not putting them selves at risk of catching covid.
Covid has exposed globally, the abysmal state of private aged care facilities.

I have family working in hospitals who have to isolate from their families. There is nothing normal about covid times. Do the right thing by yourself and others. Regardless of your age.

Old people dont stop behaving badly just because they are old. People are dreaming if they think that automatically happens.
A friend of mine was beaten up by a 65 yo+ ice addict (closer to 70) and his house guest on Saturday. They are neighbours and the ice addict’s house guest, around 50 yo, tried taking my friends security cameras down. Old people up to no good and trying to stop it being filmed. Police and ambulances came pretty fast. The police, about 4 cars, were really good. We have the old man jumping my friend from behind, knocking him to the ground and then both men beating him up. Security cameras are great and should send both these elderly men to jail.

I will treasure the point of the trial when the judge sends them to jail.

 

[Lee3]

I did see the pregnant woman. We don’t know if she apologized from her own feelings or because she felt she should out of fear of repercussions.
Being pregnant and not wanting to be held in prison might have had something to do with her ”sudden change of heart” -no?

Either way, if they took her husbands phone too prevent him filming the arrest then I will state that’s just as wrong and unacceptable. If it was instead truly because they were organizers and didn’t want them to keep promoting the event, then perhaps understandable.
But these oldies on the bench were not protest organizers so there’s zero justification.

Police can seize phones, and are doing so, along with ipads because that is how the info about these protests ia being spread.

Well then its no different than China. I’m sure they do the same when they perceive things are a national emergency. You seem to support that’s it ok to do whatever means it takes, even trample on justice, transparency, and citizen rights to achieve a good end goal.
I don’t agree.
The Catholic Catechism itself states that the ends don’t justify the means.

Its very different because we are in lockdown.

So are you stating that if China in future declares Hong Kong to be in total lockdown, and that if Chinese police grab peoples phones (who protest during this time) to cover up the polices actions and avoid them coming into the light, that you will support them?
Otherwise, it’s just hypocrisy.

You play, be prepared to pay.

The issues not even about the arrests. It’s about the officers heavy handed tactics & attempt to hide and cover up their actions.
People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing- right?

There is no outcry about that is there?

Of course not because many of us view elderly people as being different than young people.
However, if police tried to cover up actions/sieze filmed evidence when it was relating to young people, I would be just as vocal as it’s always wrong to cover up.

It may be rational, and just, in some cases to have two or three officers when it’s two big strong men, but for two old ladies? According to what sort of bizarre logic?

I don’t think they should be protesting but the police reaction in Melbourne is extreme and disproportionate.
These are the same police who often won’t do anything about the relatively recent gang violence in Melbourne, but yet they somehow have the resources to have 5 officers for these ”violent old grannies”…

The same police who take a ”softly softly” approach when those gangs have bashed the elderly…

 

[Lee3]

Some of us believe its our duty to protect the elders.
I’m sorry about your friend, but your mentioned ice addict is a rarity and not the norm amongst elderly and obviously not the case in this situation.
If police are that irrational that they genuinely believe those two old women on that bench could become this huge physical threat, then police are in desperate need of emotional and logic retaining.
You seem to view old and young people as being the same. I don’t know what that’s about…

am not sure where you are, why not say and state your agenda.

I’m from Sydney and know people in Melbourne in this situation. I have no agenda. My only agenda is harmony and justice. I.e; that police never be allowed to snatch phones to cover anything up ever.
That’s regardless of whether Covid related or anything else related. I don’t believe in stating that Covid is so bad that it justifies a totalitarian response, and that truth, transparency and justice can be abolished due to or during these times.

According to that logic, we could state it for other stressful times/circumstances too.
What about in war situations, can we then allow police to grab phones to avoid transparency?
What about refugees in ”offshore processing” -is it ok for us to take their phone cameras away so that any potential mistreatment doesn’t be brought to light?

No, it’s never ok. Covid or no covid.

Filming must never be prevented, whether of police or in nursing home’s etc.
Otherwise, how are people kept accountable?

 

[umamibella]

I did see the pregnant woman. We don’t know if

She was still going to get charged. She was pretty genuine after watching herself. I have friends who live very close to her, its a small place, and only in stage 3 lockdown.
She was not and was never going to be held in prison. It doesnt work like that here.

Either way, if they took her husbands phone

No, they took her husbands phone because it was evidence. Thats a no brainer, inciting protests on social media by using mobile devices = phones are evidence.
Where are you getting your inaccurate conclusions from?

But these oldies on the bench were not protest organizers so there’s zero justification.

Ah but they were protestors and that is breaking the law, and right now we dont know what part they played in organising protests.

So are you stating

Again, I wont comment on another country. Your are throwing out distractions and strawpeople.

The issues not even about the arrests. It’s about the officers heavy handed tactics

They were not heavy handed. The were doing their job nicely. These women were no handcuffed, thrown to the ground, searched.
Again they broke the law and were fully prepared for the consequences. Crying wolf doesnt cut it.

Of course not because many of us view elderly people as being different than young people.

Really, who is many? how old are you, how old do you think I am. I am sure you dont condone senior citizens breaking the law do you?
Its not acceptable to reach retirement and then go on a crime spree is it.

I don’t think they should be protesting but the police reaction in Melbourne is extreme and disproportionate.

Oh the police could get much more tough then they are now.

These are the same police who often won’t do anything about the relatively recent gang violence in Melbourne, but yet they somehow have the resources to have 5 officers for these ”violent old grannies”…

Really? Nothing? Are you talking about the Sudanese gang violence?

Violent old grannies? Where are you getting your material?

The same police who take a ”softly softly” approach when those gangs have bashed the elderly…

Bashed the elderly where? Are you saying these two women were bashed by police?

 

[umamibella]

Some of us believe its our duty to protect the elders.

Great so when you see elders, grannies, elderly, outside in groups without masks on, tell them to mask up and get on home so they dont catch covid and end up on a ventilator.

I’m sorry about your friend, but your mentioned ice addict is a rarity and not the norm amongst elderly and obviously not the case in this situation.

Where do you live,? Because Ice is a very common problem , its everywhere. There are drug users and alcoholics of all age groups. Age is not a requirement to have a problem with addiction.

You seem to view old and young people as being the same. I don’t know what that’s about…

You seem to think age magically erases all faulty characteristics, It doesnt.

I’m from Sydney and know people in Melbourne in this situation.

Well you can thank Dan Andrews and all Victorians later when Covid hasnt spread out of control to your state, and right now you shoud hope your premier is making the right decisions to limit and stop covid in your state.

I don’t believe in stating that Covid is so bad that it justifies a totalitarian response,

There is your agenda.

What about in war situations, can we then allow police to grab phones to avoid transparency?

Do you have any actual proof of your repeated statement accusing police of avoiding transparency?
Or are you engaging in popular rhetoric.

 

[RuthAnne]

Great so when you see elders, grannies, elderly, outside in groups without masks on, tell them to mask up and get on home so they dont catch covid and end up on a ventilator.

Tell that to my 77 year old father and he’ll tell you where to go. He refuses to mask and being elderly, nobody bothers him about it.

 

[umamibella]

Tell that to my 77 year old father and he’ll tell you where to go. He refuses to mask and being elderly, nobody bothers him about it.

Yes and you and he are probably not living in Victoria, and if you are, and he cannot wear a mask due to health reasons, he gets an exemption. We dont have exceptions here, rules are rules, because this virus is being spread by the young as the major group of spreaders, and effecting everyone. The biggest death toll is with the elderly.
But the health workers in my family, and their fellow peers on the front line would tell him what it is like to be in an induced coma on a ventilator in a hospital and then ask him if that is fair on them or on his family to watch, if it can be prevented by simple steps. Such a preventable situation if it can be prevented.

 

[RuthAnne]

and he cannot wear a mask due to health reasons,

He has no health issues and doesn’t wear a mask for the same reason I don’t. He doesn’t want to.

 

[umamibella]

He has no health issues and doesn’t wear a mask for the same reason I don’t. He doesn’t want to.

If you and he were in my state, you would be breaking the law. Clearly you are not in my state.

 

[RuthAnne]

I’m breaking the law here.