Prayer to the Blessed Virgin

[guanophore]

Although this is off topic i will give you some answers

In a couple of places. One is found in John 15: 7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

How are we to have His words abide in us without the Scriptures?

The same way the people did to whom these words were given. Hymns and spiritual thankfulness. The Word of God has never been limited to Scripture. As they did in the days of the Apostles, devotion to their teaching.

By His time they already knew what was Scripture. Jesus and His apostles refer to it many times. As for the NT it appears that the church had a very good idea what was going to be in the NT. We can see this in the study of the canon.

Well, yes and no. Clearly, Jesus and the Apostles taught volumniously from the Septuagint, and this is very evident. However, there were thirty years of letting the Word of Christ dwell richly within before most of the NT emerged. There were disputations about the books for centuries until the canon was closed. None of the Word abiding in the disciples was dependent upon the Scripture. The Spirit Himself gives witness that we are in Christ.

You are not going to find such a phrase but you will find a number of things that would tell you if you know what to know to look for and why it should be in the Bible. The Gospels were accepted very early as being a reliable source on the life of Christ. The same could be said of most of the letters of Paul. These documents had early acceptance by the church at large before the final canon was determined later.

You are off topic again, ja4. In those scriptures, we see prayer to the Blessed Virgin. We see the Magnificant, which has been used by the Church since the first century, and the greeting of Elizabeth, the first words of another person to greet her as “the Mother of My Lord”.

 

[justasking4]

The same way the people did to whom these words were given. Hymns and spiritual thankfulness. The Word of God has never been limited to Scripture. As they did in the days of the Apostles, devotion to their teaching.

Well, yes and no. Clearly, Jesus and the Apostles taught volumniously from the Septuagint, and this is very evident. However, there were thirty years of letting the Word of Christ dwell richly within before most of the NT emerged. There were disputations about the books for centuries until the canon was closed. None of the Word abiding in the disciples was dependent upon the Scripture. The Spirit Himself gives witness that we are in Christ.

You are off topic again, ja4. In those scriptures, we see prayer to the Blessed Virgin. We see the Magnificant, which has been used by the Church since the first century, and the greeting of Elizabeth, the first words of another person to greet her as “the Mother of My Lord”.

i don’t know what we would do without you. Thank you for getting us back on topic-----View attachment 4034

The Magnificant is being said by Mary. It was not a prayer to her.

 

[pierced77]

Mary is like the moon, she has no power or light of her own but reflects the sun. Free will and sin has seperated us from Jesus. In his goodness He gives us his mother. Anyone who goes to Mary is directed to the heart of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

i don’t know what we would do without you. Thank you for getting us back on topic-----View attachment 4034

The Magnificant is being said by Mary. It was not a prayer to her.

I know what you will do, you will fly off into a tirade of detraction and bigotry, because that is what always happens. I know it is very hard for you to contain your anti-Catholic sentiments, and that is why you have trouble staying on topic.

The Magnificant has been used as a prayer by the Church since before it was committed to writing in the Gospel of Luke. So has the teaching of Mary as the Ark of the covenant been present prior to Luke laying it out so carefully in his gospel. It is likely that he got it from Paul, as he spent most of his time with Paul and heard his preaching often. Paul had a masterful command of the OT, and would have easily drawn these parallels out. Paul and Luke also spent significant time in Ephesus, where Our Lady lived with the Apostle John, so Luke had an opportunity to spend personal time with her. This is why his gospel is more detailed inthe birth stories than the others.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4163678]
Originally Posted by justasking4
i don’t know what we would do without you. Thank you for getting us back on topic-----Attachment 4034

The Magnificant is being said by Mary. It was not a prayer to her.

guanophore
I know what you will do, you will fly off into a tirade of detraction and bigotry, because that is what always happens. I know it is very hard for you to contain your anti-Catholic sentiments, and that is why you have trouble staying on topic.

So far you have not dealt with the issue and instead you attack me. Don’t worry i’m used to it—View attachment 4035

The Magnificant has been used as a prayer by the Church since before it was committed to writing in the Gospel of Luke. So has the teaching of Mary as the Ark of the covenant been present prior to Luke laying it out so carefully in his gospel.

How do you know the Christians that lived during the time of the apostles looked at Mary this way?

It is likely that he got it from Paul, as he spent most of his time with Paul and heard his preaching often. Paul had a masterful command of the OT, and would have easily drawn these parallels out. Paul and Luke also spent significant time in Ephesus, where Our Lady lived with the Apostle John, so Luke had an opportunity to spend personal time with her. This is why his gospel is more detailed inthe birth stories than the others.

Are these facts here or just your speculations?

 

[guanophore]

So far you have not dealt with the issue and instead you attack me. Don’t worry i’m used to it—

It is not an attack, just an observation.

How do you know the Christians that lived during the time of the apostles looked at Mary this way?

They would not write about if it did not reflect their beliefs.

Are these facts here or just your speculations?

They are speculations based on the available facts.

 

[historyb]

It is my fervent prayer that her gracious intercessions will do just that!

Than by your standard, What did Christ affect for us at the Cross if it is Mary that saves us as you say.

 

[RobHom]

I know that Catholics say that they do not pray TO Mary; however, I found this published in my local paper this morning:

Don’t take this wrong…But you have it wrong. Catholics do pray to Mary. I do it a lot!! It is known as “intercessory prayer”.
It is a prayer, any prayer…a request, a plea, or whatever to the Blessed Virgin asking her to intercede with her son and the Father on our behalf.

PRAYER TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

“(Never known to all) Oh, most beautiful flowers of Mount Carmel, fruitful vine, splendor of Heaven, Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in my necessity. Oh, Star of the Sea, help me and show me, herein you are my mother. Oh, Holy Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth! I humbly beseech you from the bottom of my heart to succor me in this necessity. There are none that can withstand your power. Oh, show me herein you are my mother. Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee (3X). Holy Spirit, you who solve all problems, light all roads so I can attain my goal. You who have the divine gift to forgive and forget all evil against me and that in all instances in my life, you are with me. I want in this short prayer to thank you for all things as I confirm once again that I never want to be separated from you in eternal glory. Thank you for your mercy toward me and mine. The person must say this prayer for 3 consecutive days. After 3 days, the request will be granted. This prayer must be published after the favor is granted.”

I know that Catholics say that this is the same as asking friend to pray for us, but is it really?

Yes. It is…and its just that simple. Nothing complicated about it.

The prayer addresses Mary in the same way as it addresses the Holy Spirit. Is Mary equal to the Holy Spirit?

No, it doesn’t. But I can understand where a non-Catholic might be confused by something like this. We do not “worship” Mary, thus we do not hold her as being equal to God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit. She was born human, and was a human, just a very special human, created by God, born free of sin and was created by God for a specific, special and singular mission. She was created by God to be the Mother of His Son…

What about the superstition? The prayer says, “You must say this prayer for 3 consecutive days. After 3 days, the request will be granted. This prayer must be published after the favor is granted.”

I can’t really answer to that… sorry.

I don’t want to argue, but I’m really trying to understand this type of prayer.

First…did you notice the “shift” from Mary to the Holy Spirit? The first part of the prayer was for Mary to intercede on the speaker’s behalf for help…the balance was to God asking forgiveness and also committing one’s self to God. A prayer like this would be said to ask for a special consideration… like spiritual guidance…or strength in becoming a better Christian… or something similar.

Catholics do not believe Mary is equal to God. Catholics do not believe that Mary is equal to Jesus. Catholics do not believe that Mary is equal to the Holy Spirit. Mary does hold a very special place in our hearts…

 

[Peter_J]

Since were discussing prayers to Mary i came across this in my research. Its from The Glories of Mary St. Alphonsus de Liguori At the command of Mary all obey, even God.
Redemptorist Fathers, 1931
with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur

Well, I believe the proper interpretation … Hmm … You know, the way I understand Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur … Um … actually I’m stumped on this one.

 

[Peter_J]

By the way, the ARCIC document Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ (2004) is really great. (Okay, I admit it’s not exactly a quick read; but if you’ve come this far in the thread, you’ve read about 150 posts. Spend some time reading something better. )

 

[guanophore]

Than by your standard, What did Christ affect for us at the Cross if it is Mary that saves us as you say.

Just what St. Paul says He did!

" To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might** by all means save some.** 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings." 1 Cor 9:21-23

Do any of us imagine that Paul believes he saves anyone of himself?

" Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers." 1 Tim 4:15-16

Do any of us think that Paul believes that Timothy’s teaching will “save both” himself and his hearers? Would we not be in agreement that only God’s grace saves anyone?

“My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, 20 you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20

Can any of us actually save another sinners soul from death? Do any of us imagine that sins can be covered by anything but the Blood of Christ?

"And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies."Jude 21-23

Are people empowered to have mercy? Can we “save” others by snatching them from the fire?

Jesus is generous, and He allows us to participate in His ministry of reconciling the world to Himself. Those who are closest to His heart understand and practice this the best.

Don’t you think that 30 years with the Son of God enabled Mary to understand why He was here?

 

[historyb]

Just what St. Paul says He did!

" To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might** by all means save some.** 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings." 1 Cor 9:21-23

Do any of us imagine that Paul believes he saves anyone of himself?

" Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers." 1 Tim 4:15-16

Do any of us think that Paul believes that Timothy’s teaching will “save both” himself and his hearers? Would we not be in agreement that only God’s grace saves anyone?

“My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and is brought back by another, 20 you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20

Can any of us actually save another sinners soul from death? Do any of us imagine that sins can be covered by anything but the Blood of Christ?

"And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies."Jude 21-23

Are people empowered to have mercy? Can we “save” others by snatching them from the fire?

Jesus is generous, and He allows us to participate in His ministry of reconciling the world to Himself. Those who are closest to His heart understand and practice this the best.

Don’t you think that 30 years with the Son of God enabled Mary to understand why He was here?

You can’t have it both ways - either Christ saves or Mary does. You choose Mary, you wrote it and you can’t deny you did.

Let me tell you it’s Christ work on the Cross that saves us, nothing else or no one else does.

 

[Zooey]

There are a large number of Marain and hymns that are troubling. Below is part of a prayer called Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary

Holy Mary, – Pray for us. (repeat at end of each phrase.)
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of Heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without Original Sin,
Queen assumed into Heaven,
Queen of the most holy rosary,
Queen of Peace.

What conclusions would you draw from such a prayer?

Since you asked me, here are my conclusions:
1 That Jesus really loves & honours His mom.
2 That I need to pray this prayer more often.
3 That there are at least a million ways to express love and that I wish I were as good at it, as the author of this prayer.
4That, as I m NOT as good at it, as the author of the prayer, that I am so very thankful that it has been preserved for me to pray.

And, since you called said prayer into question:
5 That there are people who could misinterpret the dollar menu at Mickey D’s, if they had the determination to do so, only just *half *as much as those same people are determined to:crying: despise the Mother of God.:crying::crying:

I’d say God coming as a babe is his most fantastic creation, not mary

Mary, apparently, having been on vacation in the French Riviera at the time of His coming as the Babe of Bethlehem… …and only came back when she read about it in the NY Times.

Sheesh. The lengths some people will go to, in order to diss the Blessed Mother of Our Lord…

 

[historyb]

Sheesh. The lengths some people will go to, in order to diss the Blessed Mother of Our Lord…

The lengths some people will go to make an idol an idol out of her.

 

[Zooey]

The lengths some people will go to make an idol an idol out of her.

Thank you.
You have more than proven my point. :coffeeread:

 

[historyb]

Thank you.
You have more than proven my point. :coffeeread:

I not “dissing” anyone, your most assuredly not helping your cause. Our first priority should be Christ not Mary.

Thou shalt make no other god before me, the first commandment.

 

[guanophore]

You can’t have it both ways - either Christ saves or Mary does. You choose Mary, you wrote it and you can’t deny you did.

Let me tell you it’s Christ work on the Cross that saves us, nothing else or no one else does.

I think the scriptures I have provided show clearly that there is only one way, by the blood of Christ, and that all those who are in Christ can participate in bringing the salvation He provided to the world.

I am confused as to why you would want to disregard what these scriptures clearly show, that we can participate in the salvation of souls.

I am curious to hear you explain them away. I await your reply.

 

[guanophore]

The lengths some people will go to make an idol an idol out of her.

Clearly this does happen. I just read a post over in the non-Catholic forum where a member had elevated her to a member of the Trinity. :bigyikes:

Having a right relation with Christ will eventually bring all of us into right relationship with one another. Granted, many of us have disordered relationships and are in need of a lot of healing.

historyb:

I not “dissing” anyone, your most assuredly not helping your cause. Our first priority should be Christ not Mary.

Thou shalt make no other god before me, the first commandment.

We do not make a “god” out of Mary. A place of honor does not equate to divinity. I am convinced that those who do not understand the position God has given Mary in salvation history also do not understand what God intends for all of humanity.

The error in your formulation lies in the thinking “and not”. You see, it is not necessary to have to choose between Christ and Mary, as she never does anything to detract from Him. She will always turn eyes toward Him, and eternally says to us “do whatever He tells you”. She is one who is sold out to Him, and therefore, is our model to say “may it be done unto me according to Your Word”.

She was present in the room when He was a babe, and the Magi came to Him, prostrating in worship. She is still present with Him today as we come to Him, kneeling in worship. There is no need to exclude her.

 

[RobHom]

I think the scriptures I have provided show clearly that there is only one way, by the blood of Christ, and that all those who are in Christ can participate in bringing the salvation He provided to the world.

The scriptures are quite clear…and yet many who claim to be “Bible Believing Christians” who can “interpret” scripture cannot see what is abundantly clear.

I am confused as to why you would want to disregard what these scriptures clearly show, that we can participate in the salvation of souls.

I am curious to hear you explain them away. I await your reply.

They, the scriptures, cannot be explained away. They are clear and concise…there is no denying what they mean. The only response possible is more disbelieving anti- rhetoric and tired old saws… You have to remember… and this is very important: If one of these people like historyb give even an eight of an inch…they think that they have surrendered the world. It is an admission that they were wrong… They are, but they refuse to see it. To admit it is lose any and all justification for their separation from the Catholic Church.

 

[RobHom]

The lengths some people will go to make an idol an idol out of her.

And while you so avidly and adroitly pin the errors of the few on all of Catholicism…you equally and as adroitly evade the errors of the few of non-Catholic religions that have made an “idol” of the Apostle Paul and place his words above those of Christ Himself, and those same people make an “idol” of the Bible…attempting to use it for justification of heresies…all the while “picking and choosing” scriptures to justify positions and agenda…and ignoring all else in scriptures.

I believe the problem is that you have an incorrect context to view the issue, and you do not understand the contexts and inflections of the writing styles of the times when many documents were written. You illegitimately attempt to fog the issue with “hyperbole” that is disingenuous and obfuscatory.

Have you ever read “Shakespeare”? Do you really understand his writings? The Sonnets?

Everything said above was in kindness and friendship…