Prayer to the Blessed Virgin

[fix]

It is true people want evidence for their views and find it problematic when they can’t. Such is the case with much of the marian doctrines. They don’t have the support of the Scriptrues. This is why there is so many problems with trying to reconciling these doctrines with Scripture.

If Scripture alone is the standard then we do not have the Church founded by Christ. We have some other thing. The faith is supported by Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium.

95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62

 

[banjo]

What we are then left with is Tradition and what the magisterium. What we have then is a tradition of men and not a teaching of the Scriptures.

This is a big part of the problem in these discussions. Speaking for myself, I see the rejection of church authority and Sola Scriptura as the tradition of men.

 

[chris_molter]

Let’s not forget that Saints’ litanies are not limited to the Blessed Virgin. For example, here is an excerpt of the Litany of St Dominic.

Holy Mary, pray for us.

Holy Mother of God, pray for us.

Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.

Our glorious father, Saint Dominic, pray for us.

Follower of Jesus Christ, pray for us.

Eminently endowed with the virtues of His Sacred Heart, pray for us.

Adorer of the Blessed Sacrament, pray for us.

Singularly devoted to our Blessed Lady, pray for us.

Promoter of her honor, pray for us.

Promulgator of the Holy Rosary, pray for us.

Splendor of the priesthood, pray for us.

Founder of the Friars Preachers, pray for us.

Confounder of the Albigenses, pray for us.

Reviver of ecclesiastical discipline, pray for us.

Rose of patience, pray for us.

Most ardent for the salvation of souls, pray for us.

Most desirous of martyrdom, pray for us.

Evangelical man, pray for us.

Doctor of truth, pray for us.

Ivory of chastity, pray for us.

Man of truly apostolic heart, pray for us.

Poor in the midst of riches, pray for us.

Rich in an unspotted life, pray for us.

Burning with zeal for perishing souls, pray for us.

Preacher of the Gospel, pray for us.

Rule of abstinence, pray for us.

Herald of heavenly things, pray for us.

Salt of the earth, pray for us.

Thou who didst water the earth with thy precious blood, pray for us.

Shining in the choir of virgins, pray for us.

Saint Dominic most humble, pray for us.

Saint Dominic most obedient, pray for us.

Saint Dominic most chaste, pray for us.

Saint Dominic most charitable, pray for us.

That at the hour of death we may be received into Heaven with thee,

pray for us.

Be merciful unto us, O Lord, and pardon us.

Be merciful unto us, O Lord, and graciously hear us.

From all sin and evil, O Lord, deliver us.

From the snares of the devil, O Lord, deliver us.

From eternal death, O Lord, deliver us.

By the merits of our holy father, Saint Dominic, O Lord, deliver us.

By his ardent love, O Lord, deliver us.

By his indefatigable zeal, O Lord, deliver us.

By his extraordinary labors, O Lord, deliver us.

By his inexpressible penances, O Lord, deliver us.

By his voluntary poverty, O Lord, deliver us.

By his perpetual chastity, O Lord, deliver us.

By his perfect obedience, O Lord, deliver us.

By his profound humility, O Lord, deliver us.

By his rare constancy, O Lord, deliver us.

By all his other virtues, O Lord, deliver us.

 

[Student_4_Life]

This thread has hit a brick wall! Those who believe in “sola scriptura” will only concede what is writen in the bible. Which I get a kick out of anyway because most protestants have traditions not found in the bible. Such as the “Alter Call” and the “Sinners Prayer”. Both of which are no where in the bible.

However, I think we should all believe this way anyway. If it is not written in the bible, we cannot believe it. I wonder how Jesus and his deciples got from the boat in the lake to the next city? It didn’t say it in the bible. We can’t assume they walked, it is not writen that way.
Wait! Which bible do we use? We all know the KJV is the best, even though it is a translation from Erasus who translated from five German translations. The NIV (Catholic) bible is translated using the approximate 5600 original writings still in existance.

Now we also know that Jesus was speaking theoretical when he said was should follow tradition. SO, let’s take everything that is stated in scripture alone to live by. If you abort your baby, we can kill you the same. An eye for an eye!

Those who choose not to study their own faith as well as those they choose to “cite” incorrectly will never see or hear what anyone else has to say.

BRICK WALL!

 

[historyb]

Did Jesus Himself ever speak of her this way? Did the apostles who knew her also ever speak of her like this? The answer is no.
If Jesus or His apostles never taught such a thing neither should we… Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Agreed, one thing I always thought before converting to Catholic was that if devotion to Mary and all that was that important one should either find it in Scripture or alluded to as the Trinity is.

Do you believe salvation was dependent in part on her response?

Nope, I never have.

 

[vocatio]

This is a big part of the problem in these discussions. Speaking for myself, I see the rejection of church authority and Sola Scriptura as the tradition of men.

 

[Peter_J]

And it’s no indication that the dead are aware of us. It’s an indication that in response to Peter’s apostolic authority and gifts being used a miracle was performed. According to the argument you’re using, from the story of Balaam’s donkey we can conclude that animals really do understand human speech.

 

[justasking4]

This is a big part of the problem in these discussions. Speaking for myself, I see the rejection of church authority and Sola Scriptura as the tradition of men.

Actually the big problem is on the catholic side. There is no evidence in Scripture that once a peron has died can communicate with you or they with you.

 

[MarcoPolo]

And it’s no indication that the dead are aware of us. It’s an indication that in response to Peter’s apostolic authority and gifts being used a miracle was performed. According to the argument you’re using, from the story of Balaam’s donkey we can conclude that animals really do understand human speech.

Actually it was God speaking through the donkey (Num 22:28) But prayer to the saints doesn’t rest on Tabitha either…as I said earlier, it is highly unscriptural to sever the Body of Christ between those in heaven and those on earth. Paul asks his brethren to pray for him (Rm 15:30) and we are supposed to believe if those same people go to heaven where their prayers are most effective, we can no longer ask for their intercession? That makes no sense. The elders in Revelation are seen mediating the prayers of the saints too, which I’m sure you’ve seen in this thread. But anyway, if you do not believe we can ask those in heaven for intercession, you are under no obligation to do so. Or you could embrace my alternate method for those who don’t believe in praying to saints in heaven but do believe in asking other Christians to pray for us.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Where in the Scriptures do we find this?

And so we read justasking’s argument by special pleading: occasion #3,671.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Actually it was God speaking through the donkey (Num 22:28)

And it was God who raised the girl. It wasn’t the girl hearing Peter from her celestial home and deciding she better listen to him (she was apparently Eastern Orthodox).

But prayer to the saints doesn’t rest on Tabitha either…as I said earlier, it is highly unscriptural to sever the Body of Christ between those in heaven and those on earth. Paul asks his brethren to pray for him (Rm 15:30) and we are supposed to believe if those same people go to heaven where their prayers are most effective, we can no longer ask for their intercession?

If it was so obvious to logic, and not severing the Body of Christ in the way you described so important, then why does Paul simply never say to ask for their intercession? We must go based on the text and its context to determine any sense of what an apostle is writing. Clever argumentation used by 21st century apologetics means absolutely nothing if we do not receive a clear directive in Scripture to do what you are claiming we should do.

That makes no sense. The elders in Revelation are seen mediating the prayers of the saints too, which I’m sure you’ve seen in this thread.

Of the saints on earth.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If it was so obvious to logic, and not severing the Body of Christ in the way you described so important, then why does Paul simply never say to ask for their intercession?

You asked me if it’s so obvious why does Paul not spell it out? I think the first half of the question answers itself.

We must go based on the text and its context to determine any sense of what an apostle is writing. Clever argumentation used by 21st century apologetics means absolutely nothing

My statement was only clever as much as it was correct. But I suggest if you want to stick to the text, you not add that we should stop asking our brethren to pray for us once they are fully united with God, because Scripture asserts no such thing. You can always adopt my alternative method from my previous post #109…it covers all your concerns.

But anyway we have arrived at the “you are not interpreting Scripture correctly” juncture. And I assume neither did early Tradition which shows a the Catholic understanding. I would provide much more on the subject, but it won’t be fruitful.
Any lurkers out there who want more info. feel free to ask or PM me!

 

[TriuneUnity]

You asked me if it’s so obvious why does Paul not spell it out? I think the first half of the question answers itself.

No it doesn’t because if that were the case he also would not need to spell out praying for people to begin with. Considering speaking to the dead goes against the entire grain of Old Testament teaching he should have most definitely spelled it out. If he didn’t spell out, then it’s clearly an assumption.

My statement was only clever as much as it was correct. But I suggest if you want to stick to the text, you not add that we should stop asking our brethren to pray for us once they are fully united with God, because Scripture asserts no such thing. You can always adopt my alternative method from my previous post #109…it covers all your concerns.

So your means of interpreting how the Scriptures say to practice your faith is in terms of negative evidence rather than positive? Taken to such an absurd logical conclusion, I am sure you can see where this sort of thing can lead.

But anyway we have arrived at the “you are not interpreting Scripture correctly” juncture. And I assume neither did early Tradition which shows a the Catholic understanding. I would provide much more on the subject, but it won’t be fruitful.
Any lurkers out there who want more info. feel free to ask or PM me!

One doesn’t need an interpretation to show that something is simply not present to begin with. Then again, the entire basis for these types of questions (interpretation) rests on the standard of Rome that God has not spoken clearly about anything.

 

[East_and_West]

Actually the Great Prostentant Reformation made it possible for the church to be held accountable when it erred. If you look at those titles you find that the Jesus nor His apostles ever taught such things about Mary. Those titles go far far beyond the Mary we know in the Scriptures.

1. Actually, the deformation did not make the church accountable. Instead, it made every christian a church to himself, interpreting the scriptures how he sees fit, completely divorced from the faith handed down by the apostles.
2. Your arguement concerning the titles assumes the unscriptural teaching of sola scriptura. I am sorry, but I do not hold to this tradition of men (the doctrine of Sola Scriptura), but rather to the revelation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
3. The scriptures demonstrate the same attitude towards Mary that we find in this prayer. In the gospel of Luke we see Elizabeth expressing how unworthy of Mary’s presence she is: “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” In Revelation 12 we see the greatness of Mary, clothed in the sun, the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. This same chapter, later on, even points out that Christians are her “offspring”.

 

[Peter_J]

Actually the Great Prostentant Reformation made it possible for the church to be held accountable when it erred.

I would have to say that Catholics and Protestants are not very accountable to each other. Would you agree?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Considering speaking to the dead goes against the entire grain of Old Testament teaching

So your means of interpreting how the Scriptures say to practice your faith is in terms of negative evidence rather than positive?.

Summoning the dead is forbidden–divination–not asking heavenly brethren to pray for us. And I don’t think you have been reading my posts.

Asking others for prayer is encouraged…those in heaven are not dead…they are united with Christ…the other lung of divine revelation, Tradition, has exercised this practice…we know we have angels guarding us… not “negative” evidence. If you can see the Trinity from Scripture (which for some reason Paul didn’t spell out either), you can see this. If you don’t, move on with confidence that you have proven your point and be glad!

 

[GailMac]

Refusal to pray to Mary and/or the saints in Heaven is just another way some folks prove to themselves and others they aren’t Catholic.

We all know Scripture supports prayers to the Saints. We also know that the Tradition of praying for and to the dead was in existence long before the Messiah came. If we try to strip Christianity of belief in the intercessions of Saints and Blesseds, Angels and all those beyond this world via the “sola scriptura” method, we lose a great deal of the faith. Is there no Resurection of the dead? Is there no Communion of the Saints? Is the Body not united to it’s Head? Is there no one in Heaven but God? Is there even a life after death? And if there is, why is it so devoid of the life lived here on earth? It couldn’t possibly be Heaven if those there have even less of the powers they had while here on earth! A person cannot exist in Heaven, in God’s glory and LOSE what powers and faculites he or she had while here on earth. NO! Of course not! Once a soul has departed this earth he or she is no longer confined to mere physics! Death frees a soul from it’s earthly confines. Those who negate intercessory actions on the part of the deceased misunderstand death and journey of the soul to the after life. They also misunderstand Heaven. And if they venture to confine God’s actions to only those they can find in their “great roadmap to salvation,” the Bible, and the very skewed interpretations of their limited understanding, they naturally begin to attribute to God their own limited thinking. They try to confine God to their way of seeing things. This has many, many problems. Most of the exegesis along these lines strips Christianity down to so small a body of doctrines it becomes impossible to call it Chrisitanity.

Peace,

Gail

 

[historyb]

Refusal to pray to Mary and/or the saints in Heaven is just another way some folks prove to themselves and others they aren’t Catholic.

bull hockey

We all know Scripture supports prayers to the Saints.

Please enlighten us

 

[justasking4]

And so we read justasking’s argument by special pleading: occasion #3,671.

View attachment 4028

 

[justasking4]

I would have to say that Catholics and Protestants are not very accountable to each other. Would you agree?

i do think there is a tension between the 2 and at times things are done or not done because of it. Take for example the Catholic church proclaiming Mary as the medatrix of all graces. From what i have read on this there is a great reluctance by the Catholic church not do so for fear of a negative reaction by some Protestants.