Prayer to the Blessed Virgin

[peary1]

If the Scriptures never give Mary such titles should the church do so?

justasking4, you must realize that you, a protestant, only have a remnant of God’s word, and that is what has been written down in the Bible. The Catholic Church contains the entire Truth as revealed by God as it is protected by the Holy Spirit. As Paul tells us, hold onto the traditions that have been passed down to the Church. This, of course, would include Mary as our mother and Mother of the Church.

 

[Psalter]

**I know that Catholics say that they do not pray TO Mary; **

This is news to me! I pray TO Mary all the time.

 

[guanophore]

This is news to me! I pray TO Mary all the time.

Most modern protestants don’t understand the historical use of the word “pray” as “ask”, and believe that “praying to” is equivalent to worship. Cathollics do not worship Mary. We ask her intercession, and offer our worship to God with and through her own. It is a common misunderstanding.

Most modern Fundamentalists also reject the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints, so they don’t believe that any of the saints are “conscious” and able to hear and respond to prayer. They believe this is a divine trait, which makes our prayers equivalent to idolotry.

 

[justasking4]

No, they are private revelations and devotions, which is why they are not binding on the faithful. They are not contradictory with the Apostolic Teachings. The prayers and devotions of the Apostles are what is part of Sacred Traditoin.

Were there any Apostles that were devoted to Mary as queen of heaven or someone to pray to in a time of need?

 

[justasking4]

justasking4, you must realize that you, a protestant, only have a remnant of God’s word, and that is what has been written down in the Bible. The Catholic Church contains the entire Truth as revealed by God as it is protected by the Holy Spirit. As Paul tells us, hold onto the traditions that have been passed down to the Church. This, of course, would include Mary as our mother and Mother of the Church.

If you are referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:15 this would not include any traditions after Paul died. He certainly did not have any “traditions” of praying to Mary or being devoted to her. In fact none of the apostles did.
Secondly you must assume that the HS has protected the church from error. It certainly cannot be supported by Scripture. Already in Revelation 3 we see churches go into error and the Lord Jesus rebuking these churches. If this were true then these churches would not have embraced error and been rebuked by Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Were there any Apostles that were devoted to Mary as queen of heaven or someone to pray to in a time of need?

I am sure as many as were able sought her intercession. She was with them in the upper room on Resurrection day, and never stopped gathering with them in prayer. She lived with the Apostle John, and I am sure prayed for the ministry of the Apostles.

She continued telling them, as she does us today “Do whatever He tells you”. However, the majority of the Apostles I don’t think understood about the Queen of Heaven, just as they did not understand many things. John saw her in his apocalypse, but that was after all the others had died.

I don’t think the fullnes of the ministry of Mary was understood for centuries, just like the canon was not closed until the 4th century.

 

[guanophore]

If you are referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:15 this would not include any traditions after Paul died.

How did you come up with that? Don’t you know the origin of the word “tradition”? Ever heard of paradosis? You don’t need paradosis of you intend for things to die out.

Keep studying.

He certainly did not have any “traditions” of praying to Mary or being devoted to her. In fact none of the apostles did.

The Apostles asked for the intercession of the saints, starting with Stephen, the first martyr.

All the Apostles followed Jesus, who was very devoted to His mother. John was devoted to her, and since they lived in Ephesus, and Luke and Paul spent a long time there, it is very likely that they could pray and fellowship together. It is also likely that Luke got his parallels of Mary with the Ark of the Covenant from Paul, who was most astute in finding the application of the OT to the new.

Secondly you must assume that the HS has protected the church from error. It certainly cannot be supported by Scripture.

Well. We read it differently. IT is not an assumption, but a promise of Christ. We take HIm at His word.

Already in Revelation 3 we see churches go into error and the Lord Jesus rebuking these churches. If this were true then these churches would not have embraced error and been rebuked by Christ.

No, there were people in the Church that err. That is not the same as the Church making error. It is clear in all the letters of Revelation that there are those who have remained pure, and those who have fallen into error.

The Church did not embrace error. Those who fell from the teachings of the Church embraced error.

 

[Peter_J]

Secondly you must assume that the HS has protected the church from error. It certainly cannot be supported by Scripture. Already in Revelation 3 we see churches go into error and the Lord Jesus rebuking these churches. If this were true then these churches would not have embraced error and been rebuked by Christ.

Yes, churches went into error, not THE CHURCH – by which I mean the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Mian Agian Katholiken kai Apostoliken Ekklesian).

I’d refer you to this quote. (It’s a little long, but I strongly recommend reading it.)

 

[VARC]

The Apostles asked for the intercession of the saints, starting with Stephen, the first martyr.

.

Citation please

 

[justasking4]

Yes, churches went into error, not THE CHURCH – by which I mean the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (Mian Agian Katholiken kai Apostoliken Ekklesian).

I’d refer you to this quote. (It’s a little long, but I strongly recommend reading it.)

There to many problems with the church being infallible.

1. the Scriptures never make such a claim
2. There are false teachers who would bring their false teachings into the church itself. Here are a few passages to consider:
   2 Corinthians 11: 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
   14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
   15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Acts 20: 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and yo**u put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; **

The church has always had to contend with false teachers. Sometimes she has been successful sometimes not.

 

[guanophore]

There to many problems with the church being infallible.

1. the Scriptures never make such a claim

Well, we read them differently.

And, in fact, the Church was acting infallibly when they were written, preserved, canonized and promulgated. The Scripture is the most widely known infallible work of the Church.

1. There are false teachers who would bring their false teachings into the church itself. Here are a few passages to consider:
   2 Corinthians 11: 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
   14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
   15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Acts 20: 28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and yo**u put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; **

It’s ok, ja4, we all know you are here, and we are on guard!

:knight2:

false teachers coming in does not equate to false teachings coming out.

The church has always had to contend with false teachers. Sometimes she has been successful sometimes not.

Yes, it is true that the Church has always conteded with false teachers. SHe has been successful to the extent that the Teachings of Jesus continue unblemished. Not all the souls of the offenders have been saved, unfortunately.

Yet you digress from the thread, ja4. This thread is not about the infallibility of the Church, but of prayers to the Blessed Virgin. Did you know our mother wears army boots?