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Pug
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Prester John:
Council of Trent (hand typed, so may be a typo):
Also, “the priest of the Lord must therefore…impose salutary and suitable satisfactions” (also from same place in Trent). The word “salutary” means beneficial, remedial, curative, etc.
I agree. They are giving us the 3 hail mary’s for our health, so to speak. It is designed to improve our spiritual life or some other healthly goal. The priest is there to give what “doctoring” he can. The penance is one tool. We are broken after doing sin and need fixing. Being forgiven does not always mean we are fully “fixed”. It is because we aren’t fully fixed that we go to purgatory. Praying should help counteract our tendency to sin.
Council of Trent (hand typed, so may be a typo):
14th session chapter 8.
Also, “the priest of the Lord must therefore…impose salutary and suitable satisfactions” (also from same place in Trent). The word “salutary” means beneficial, remedial, curative, etc.
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Catholic_Tom
Guest
I think you all see there are varying opinions on this and some understand where I am coming from, others just advise to pray it and get your absolution which is wrong too. I mean, if a priest tells me to say 3 hail marys but I don’t personally believe in saying that prayer, then are you going to tell me that my sins will not be forgiven because I chose not to invoke the Blessed Virgin? It comes down to that really.
If you are truly sorry for your sins, you have confessed your sins to a Priest, i am quite sure that God has forgiven your sins. That said, I do believe in penance, but my disagreement is what that penance is when it comes to a priest “forcing” (for lack of a better word) you to say 5 hail mary’s, etc.
thanks for all your thoughts by the way. I understand that there are those who have a strong devotion to the blessed virgin Mary and i don’t think that’s wrong (heck, my mom does too) but by the same token, there are those who do not, and that is ok too. I like the posts on this board though, very insightful posts, thanks again. I’ll keep reading.
If you are truly sorry for your sins, you have confessed your sins to a Priest, i am quite sure that God has forgiven your sins. That said, I do believe in penance, but my disagreement is what that penance is when it comes to a priest “forcing” (for lack of a better word) you to say 5 hail mary’s, etc.
thanks for all your thoughts by the way. I understand that there are those who have a strong devotion to the blessed virgin Mary and i don’t think that’s wrong (heck, my mom does too) but by the same token, there are those who do not, and that is ok too. I like the posts on this board though, very insightful posts, thanks again. I’ll keep reading.
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j_arden
Guest
An unaddressed part of the original question was whether or not the absolution is valid if one doesn’t perform the penance. While we should do the penance with an obedient spirit it is not required to “validate” the absolution. As long as we have some remorse the absolution is valid when pronounced. This–remorse–is also an interesting point that was briefly addressed. The beauty of confession is that we must only show partial remorse for our sins to be absolved. Outside of the confessional and baptismal font, total contrition is required. Of course, the more contrition the better but, being flawed and aware of it, sometimes we can only manage partial contrition. I thank God that He allows us to be absolved through His sacrament without requiring complete contrition. I think I might fall into scrupulosity if full contrition were required of me for all my sins. How could you know your own heart well enough to be confident that your contrition is full?
- JP
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Pug
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Maybe it should be added to all the thoughts here that if you do a mortal sin, go to confession and get absolved, but after you leave you decide to refuse to do any of the penance the priest gave you, then you are likely in for a new sin, and it is grave matter. It is also my understanding that a priest can give you a penance that is hard, like to run a marathon or something, but then tell you it only binds under venial sin, so that you are relatively safe if you blow the penance.
Maybe it is this case of a new sin that is making people worry. I assume, but do not know, if the original sin was venial, then the penance automatically only binds venially.
I’ve got yet another quote from Trent, but I put part in bold. 14th session chapter 4
Maybe it is this case of a new sin that is making people worry. I assume, but do not know, if the original sin was venial, then the penance automatically only binds venially.
I’ve got yet another quote from Trent, but I put part in bold. 14th session chapter 4
j_arden, I can go into loops over the lesser type of contrition, so you aren’t too bad off yet. Do I really have a firm purpose of amendment, or am I kidding myself, etc?
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kmktexas
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Annie, this is priceless. Poor Tom probably didn’t need it but I would love to archive it for some of the Catholic bashers who visit here.
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JimG
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At the very least–if you deliberately fail to do the assigned penance, that in itself should be confessed in your next confession.
(I can see it now. Penitents lined up trying to get in their confessions before Mass. Father gives you 3 Hail Mary’s. You say, “Oh, by the way, Father, I don’t do Hail Mary’s. Haven’t done the last 15 you assigned to me.” I hope your priest is not a Texan.)
(I can see it now. Penitents lined up trying to get in their confessions before Mass. Father gives you 3 Hail Mary’s. You say, “Oh, by the way, Father, I don’t do Hail Mary’s. Haven’t done the last 15 you assigned to me.” I hope your priest is not a Texan.)
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Catholic_Tom
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I suppose the humour makes you all feel better. Thanks to those who have given some intelligent posts. For the record, I do pray the Rosary when I wish to, that’s not the point though that I am trying to make. Please re-read my posts before making jokes please.
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PaulDupre
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I agree with Todd. Explain your feelings to the priest and ask for a different penance. Remember that there is probably nothing this priest hasn’t already heard and nothing will shock him. He only wants you to come to a place of reconciliation with Christ and His Church. It is not required for you to ask any saint for intercession. Your priest knows this and will assign a suitable penance to accomodate you.
Grace to you,
Paul
Grace to you,
Paul
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PaulDupre
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You are priceless!
Paul
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AlanFromWichita
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Catholic Tom:
There’s a lot of the “mechanics” of sin and forgiveness where my thoughts differ on the Church’s, so I don’t claim expertise at knowing the answer to your question, which is even simpler than you just posed it. The question is whether in order for Reconcilation to “work” one has to do the prescribed penance. As one poster suggested, the answer is a qualified, “no” so if that’s true one wonders why should anybody do the penance?
There is something, though, that you seem to be avoiding. You say you “don’t believe” in saying the Hail Mary. I’m also not that much “into” saying Hail Mary prayers, but it seems you are beyond just not being disposed to say them, but are actually repelled by them.
What if, just hypothetically, the priest asked you to repeat John 3:16 five times as part of your penance, or perhaps had asked you to go somewhere you were alone and read Psalm 23? Would you have the same aversion to doing that?
If not, then you do realize the Hail Mary is just two sentences taken from different parts of the gospels, right? How can it be harmful or detrimental in any way to do that? Is it that you think you are somehow “selling out” to those who believe praying through Mary is necessary? My real concern about you is that it might be some sort of matter of pride, where you believe you know better than “other” Catholics about how to pray. If not pride, perhaps some sort of injury or embarrassment, or maybe somebody you don’t respect who used to say Hail Mary a lot, or something. You’re coming across as I see it as sort of obsessive over the Hail Mary avoidance. While I’m interested in finding out the answer to your question for academic reasons, I’m more interested in finding out what is behind your motives for being so insistent on it?
For example, I say prayers with my kids that I don’t like, such as, “Jesus makes me new again. He’s with me all day long. He heals my wounds and dries my tears and keeps me safe and strong. Thank you Gentle Shepherd, You’re really my best friend. No matter how my day is gone You make me new again.” That prayer is shizo, for one thing because it can’t make up its mind whether it’s talking TO Jesus or ABOUT Jesus. I don’t know where they got it. Some prayer book or some cutesy web site, I don’t know. I was on a business trip and when I got home they were saying it nightly with my wife. I just say it, though. It hasn’t killed me so far.
Alan
Dear Tom,
There’s a lot of the “mechanics” of sin and forgiveness where my thoughts differ on the Church’s, so I don’t claim expertise at knowing the answer to your question, which is even simpler than you just posed it. The question is whether in order for Reconcilation to “work” one has to do the prescribed penance. As one poster suggested, the answer is a qualified, “no” so if that’s true one wonders why should anybody do the penance?
There is something, though, that you seem to be avoiding. You say you “don’t believe” in saying the Hail Mary. I’m also not that much “into” saying Hail Mary prayers, but it seems you are beyond just not being disposed to say them, but are actually repelled by them.
What if, just hypothetically, the priest asked you to repeat John 3:16 five times as part of your penance, or perhaps had asked you to go somewhere you were alone and read Psalm 23? Would you have the same aversion to doing that?
If not, then you do realize the Hail Mary is just two sentences taken from different parts of the gospels, right? How can it be harmful or detrimental in any way to do that? Is it that you think you are somehow “selling out” to those who believe praying through Mary is necessary? My real concern about you is that it might be some sort of matter of pride, where you believe you know better than “other” Catholics about how to pray. If not pride, perhaps some sort of injury or embarrassment, or maybe somebody you don’t respect who used to say Hail Mary a lot, or something. You’re coming across as I see it as sort of obsessive over the Hail Mary avoidance. While I’m interested in finding out the answer to your question for academic reasons, I’m more interested in finding out what is behind your motives for being so insistent on it?
For example, I say prayers with my kids that I don’t like, such as, “Jesus makes me new again. He’s with me all day long. He heals my wounds and dries my tears and keeps me safe and strong. Thank you Gentle Shepherd, You’re really my best friend. No matter how my day is gone You make me new again.” That prayer is shizo, for one thing because it can’t make up its mind whether it’s talking TO Jesus or ABOUT Jesus. I don’t know where they got it. Some prayer book or some cutesy web site, I don’t know. I was on a business trip and when I got home they were saying it nightly with my wife. I just say it, though. It hasn’t killed me so far.
Alan
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Catholic_Tom
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Thanks for your post. Let me try and clarify this. I do believe in Mary’s intercession. I feel though that asking me to say a prescribed prayer and forcing me to invoke a saint’s intercession against my will is right for my sin’s to be forgiven. I feel that forgiveness should only be asked directly to God (this is my personal opinion, everyone can do whatever floats their boat and I know all prayers go to God eventually) and I feel that being forced to invoke a saint for my penance 3 or 5 or 10 times doesn’t make sense and is not right. So thats it in a nutshell. As far as reading a scriptural passage for penance or whatever, that’s ok I suppose, however, even in understanding that the hail mary is scriptural in it’s words, the actual prayer is meant to invoke a saint, so it’s not the same. Like I noted before, I do say the Rosary so its not like I don’t believe in her intercession, that is irrelevant.
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mtr01
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Catholic Tom:
By way of example, one of the priests at my parish likes to assign “acts of charity” as penance. Now, the forgiveness of my sins is not dependant on doing something nice for someone; these are simply ways of “making it up” to God for my sins.
As far as your first post is concerned, I don’t think it would be proper, especially if you did not speak to him first about a different form of penance. The sins you have confessed will still be absolved, but as others have mentioned, you would be intentionally disobedient to your confessor. At the very least, it would have to be confessed next time you go to confession.
I’m not sure by your post if you have substituted your own prayers in the past or not. If you haven’t done so yet, my suggestion would be to simply explain the situation to your confessor, and ask for “Our Fathers” instead of “Hail Marys”. If you have done so in the past, confess it, then ask for a penance that doesn’t involve the Hail Mary. I hope this helps.
I understand where you are coming from, Tom. However, I think you are making a mistake here. You state that you don’t think “forcing me to invoke a saint’s intercession against my will is right for my sins to be forgiven.” I think this is a misunderstanding. Your sins are forgiven and absolved in the confessional - you are not invoking the saints for forgiveness, as that comes from God alone. The prayers are for penance, that is a way of showing you are sorry for your sins and to make reparation. If, as you say, you are not opposed to the idea of intercession in general, then this really shouldn’t be a problem. Penance is not the same as absolution/forgiveness.
By way of example, one of the priests at my parish likes to assign “acts of charity” as penance. Now, the forgiveness of my sins is not dependant on doing something nice for someone; these are simply ways of “making it up” to God for my sins.
As far as your first post is concerned, I don’t think it would be proper, especially if you did not speak to him first about a different form of penance. The sins you have confessed will still be absolved, but as others have mentioned, you would be intentionally disobedient to your confessor. At the very least, it would have to be confessed next time you go to confession.
I’m not sure by your post if you have substituted your own prayers in the past or not. If you haven’t done so yet, my suggestion would be to simply explain the situation to your confessor, and ask for “Our Fathers” instead of “Hail Marys”. If you have done so in the past, confess it, then ask for a penance that doesn’t involve the Hail Mary. I hope this helps.
J
JimG
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Catholic Tom said:
If this is your belief, then why do you go to confession to a priest at all?
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AlanFromWichita
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Dear mtr01,
I am not an expert on this so I don’t pretend to know. If the sacrament is just as valid with or without the penance, then that would imply the penance is optional, right? Helpful, certainly, but if it’s optional then is doing the penance then even considered part of the sacrament?
Most Catholics, I suspect, would never forego the penance due to fear as a very minimum, but if it is optional that fear is unfounded. If it is, I just thought of quite an experiment. What if I had just confessed to Padre Pio and he gave me a penance and I said, “thank you, but I think I’ll pass on it this time.” Whoa!
Alan
I am not an expert on this so I don’t pretend to know. If the sacrament is just as valid with or without the penance, then that would imply the penance is optional, right? Helpful, certainly, but if it’s optional then is doing the penance then even considered part of the sacrament?
Most Catholics, I suspect, would never forego the penance due to fear as a very minimum, but if it is optional that fear is unfounded. If it is, I just thought of quite an experiment. What if I had just confessed to Padre Pio and he gave me a penance and I said, “thank you, but I think I’ll pass on it this time.” Whoa!
Alan
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mtr01
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Hi Alan,
AlanFromWichita:
AlanFromWichita:
Perhaps, in the big picture, going to confession with the intent to not do penance would be the equivalent of not truly being sorry for one’s sins, which if I’m not mistaken, would invalidate the absolution. Then again, I’m not an expert either and this is how I personally understand things. I could be wrong, and if so, I hope someone more knowledgable corrects me.
I wasn’t trying to imply that penance was optional…I’m sorry if I gave that impression. The idea I was trying to convey is that the priest through the authority of Christ absolves the sins in the confessional. The penance, is an act of reparation for offending God. Thus, one is not asking for forgiveness by prayers assigned as penance (the Hail Mary, for example).
Whether it is through fear or not, I think it is wrong to think of penance as optional. One of the conditions for our sins to be forgiven is that we are sorry for our sins, and that we promise to avoid them in the future. Forgoing penance, at least to me, would seem to be saying that even though one says he’s sorry for sinning, he’s not willing to “put his money where his mouth is”, so to speak and show his sorrow by making reparation.
Perhaps, in the big picture, going to confession with the intent to not do penance would be the equivalent of not truly being sorry for one’s sins, which if I’m not mistaken, would invalidate the absolution. Then again, I’m not an expert either and this is how I personally understand things. I could be wrong, and if so, I hope someone more knowledgable corrects me.
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Catholic_Tom
Guest
I’ve always done the penance as perscribed in the past however in doing them, although I was truly sorry, saying 5 hail mary’s as the priest asked me to do seemed unnecessary and just wrong. It’s as though if I just say the prayers 5 times, I’m good to go. What if I am skeptical about the prayer period? These are questions many people I’m sure ask themselves. Obviously I’m sure you all see that I am skeptical about using it in absolution.
I read where someone said if I was sorry for my sins that “I should put my money where my mouth is”…are you kidding me? I don’t understand how saying a Hail Mary is an act of reparation?
Doing some Charity, reading some relevant scripture that relates to my sins, etc, that I can see, in addition to saying your own personal prayers to the Lord asking for forgiveness (or if you want to say Hail Mary’s, that’s ok too).
I read where someone said if I was sorry for my sins that “I should put my money where my mouth is”…are you kidding me? I don’t understand how saying a Hail Mary is an act of reparation?
Doing some Charity, reading some relevant scripture that relates to my sins, etc, that I can see, in addition to saying your own personal prayers to the Lord asking for forgiveness (or if you want to say Hail Mary’s, that’s ok too).
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AlanFromWichita
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Catholic Tom:
Perhaps instead of asking the priest for an “alternate penance” you can humbly accept the penance he gives, but ask him for his opinion on spiritual readings, exercises, or programs that you might use to become stronger and avoid future sin?
As I said, I’m not a big “Hail Mary” person, and seldom say them alone, but it just seems a little obstinate to refuse such a trivial task unless there is a serious reason. It sounds like you are asking for a serious reason to go along with it; I’m saying I don’t hear a serious reason to be excused from it. That’s just my opinion; I often go along with rituals whether I understand/believe in them or not, just to keep from ruffling feathers. I like to pick my battles, and I’ve just never done it in the confessional. (I usually bring them here. )
Alan
Seems too easy, doesn’t it? Just recite lah-dee-dah and you’re off the hook. Once when I went to confession I told the priest that I really didn’t feel any particular guilt about what I’d done because I had put it in the past, so I wasn’t sure if I was being honest in the ongoing confession. He assured me that it wasn’t about my feelings, but that I go through the process. I was sorry at the time that I committed them; the fact that I’ve “gotten over them” doesn’t lessen the sacrament. If this is true, I wonder if this might apply in your case in which it doesn’t seem right.
I didn’t say that, but I understood that if you are unwilling to “go along with the gag,” to put it crudely, when the penance is actually so simple, that you are resisting the sacrament itself.
It almost sounds like you’re in denial about whether you received absolution or not, because the penance didn’t challenge you enough. I think it’s great to go above and beyond. It seems like the penance offered is just a token sign that you are willing to make contact with God. I doubt many people, while saying their Hail Marys or whatever, suddenly come upon the magic formula it takes to resist sin in the future. Being forgiven requires a proper attitude but no work. Repenting requires effort.
Perhaps instead of asking the priest for an “alternate penance” you can humbly accept the penance he gives, but ask him for his opinion on spiritual readings, exercises, or programs that you might use to become stronger and avoid future sin?
As I said, I’m not a big “Hail Mary” person, and seldom say them alone, but it just seems a little obstinate to refuse such a trivial task unless there is a serious reason. It sounds like you are asking for a serious reason to go along with it; I’m saying I don’t hear a serious reason to be excused from it. That’s just my opinion; I often go along with rituals whether I understand/believe in them or not, just to keep from ruffling feathers. I like to pick my battles, and I’ve just never done it in the confessional. (I usually bring them here.
)Alan
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Pug
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Catholic Tom:
However, it can partly repair us. Any prayer whatsoever addressed to God is a good thing that should bring about good effects in us for having prayed it. Praise offered to Jesus (blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus) is good for us and rectifies our minds. The prayers of others for us (pray for us sinners now) should be helpful to us.
Our saying of any penance, no matter what its content, is saying to God that we are sorry. God will not despise a humble and contrite heart Ps51. Our prayer is the expression of that. Expressions like that are healthly and restorative to us; they fix us (at least a little).
Note, the hail mary is Not part of absolution. It is the priest’s attempt at offering some healthful activity to repair you. It also applies to “temporal” punishments. (as opposed to eternal).
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “reparation”. If you are talking about fixing the offense you made to God for real, well, thank goodness Jesus did that, because what in the world could we offer to God that we didn’t receive, etc? Our recitation does not fix that. It can’t. Neither can doing charity or scripture reading.
However, it can partly repair us. Any prayer whatsoever addressed to God is a good thing that should bring about good effects in us for having prayed it. Praise offered to Jesus (blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus) is good for us and rectifies our minds. The prayers of others for us (pray for us sinners now) should be helpful to us.
Our saying of any penance, no matter what its content, is saying to God that we are sorry. God will not despise a humble and contrite heart Ps51. Our prayer is the expression of that. Expressions like that are healthly and restorative to us; they fix us (at least a little).
Note, the hail mary is Not part of absolution. It is the priest’s attempt at offering some healthful activity to repair you. It also applies to “temporal” punishments. (as opposed to eternal).
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Prester_John
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AHA! EUREKA! YES, YES, YES!!!
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