Prayers to Mary

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I’m all for intercessory prayer. I’m just not for praying to someone other than God.

The comment attached to that scripture reads: “16 “All scripture,”… Every part of divine scripture is certainly profitable for all these ends. But, if we would have the whole rule of Christian faith and practice, we must not be content with those Scriptures, which Timothy knew from his infancy, that is, with the Old Testament alone: nor yet with the New Testament, without taking along with it the traditions of the apostles, and the interpretation of the church, to which the apostles delivered both the book, and the true meaning of it.”

I’ve bolded what I see as a huge problem. Here we are being told not to be content with what God has provided to us - His word?! That is a license to come up with traditions, beliefs and practises suitable to mens’ imaginations and whatever suits their fancy. It’s no wonder that so many religious practices have their roots outside of scripture!
Do you think that the Catholic Church’s Sacred Tradition comes from a license to “come up with traditions, beliefs, and practices suitable to mens’ imaginations and whatever suits their fancy?” Is this what you are saying?? Has it ever occurred to you that God might just not be neatly wrapped up in a Bible; that He has the power and the love to teach us in other ways??

What did the people do before the Bible was penned?? We are lucky. We can access numerous Bibles online, buy them from Amazon, go to a bookstore and pick one out, go to the local church and find one, borrow one from almost anyone…

What about those who did not have those options? They wanted to be good and follow the teachings of Christ, just like us. So what do you suppose they did?

I would really like to see you provide Bible passages that state that the word of God is present only in the Bible, that we can do only what is in the Bible, and which books belong in the Bible.
I have prayed for many people other than me. We are suppose to pray for others. The issue is who do we pray to? I pray to God and I believe it is wrong to pray to anyone but God.
Let’s look at it this way.
The Bible tells us to pray to God. Therefore, in obedience to the word of God, I will pray to _____________.
For me, I will fill the blank in with “God”. But what I’m understanding from many here is that they would fill in the blank with “God, Mary, St. Joseph, etc., etc., etc.”
That all depends on what you mean by “etc., etc., etc.” and whether you understand that Catholics pray in obedience to the word of God.
 
I have been following this thread to the best of my ability. A couple points I see:
  1. Fair Lady does not object to people praying to Jesus for other people. She objects to us asking Saints / Mary in heaven to pray for us because she does not believe they can hear us. Fair Lady, please correct me if I am wrong.
You are absolutely right! I don’t know why it was so hard to bring that point across, but I’m glad at least one person got it.
  1. The term “praying to” does not always equal worship. It can mean worship or asking for something. Hopefully we can all agree on this point. If not, please look up the word pray in the dictionary:
    merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pray
I need to do some more study on this point, but I see prayer as an act of worship because it is an act of connecting with a greater power in the heavenlies. I

There is a sobering warning in Romans 1:21-25 “For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and **exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man **and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”

No matter how we slice it or dice it, devotion to Mary is an example of worshipping the creature rather than the Creator. She was a humble servant of God who would would magnify Him. Not ever would she approve of the devotion and honour that is being given to her through prayer and whatever other forms of veneration there are.

I sincerely implore anyone here who practises prayer to and veneration of Mary to examine your actions. What does God want from each of us? He wants us to love Him with all of our heart, soul and mind.

MATTHEW 22:36-40 NKJ
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

I’d like to share this video “Messages From Heaven” with anyone here who would care to watch it:
eternal-productions.org/messages_video.html
So, I believe the appropriate point to discuss is not whether or not we can pray for each other, but can the Saints / Mary in heaven hear our prayers in order to pray for us.
Yes, among many of the issues that come with this topic, that is definitely one to pursue.
 
There is a sobering warning in Romans 1:21-25 “For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and **exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man **and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
I believe another posted mentioned this, but does it have to be an either / or situation? It seems people who are opposed to prayers to Mary feel Catholics will disregard God and focus completely on Mary. That could not be further from the truth. Have you ever been to a Catholic mass? The focus there is on God. Worshiping God, thanking God, asking God for forgiveness…

For example, I often pray the rosary, which includes the prayer Hail Mary. The prayer is basically two parts, reading from scripture “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed it the fruit of your womb, Jesus”. The second part is asking Mary to pray to Jesus for us “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”. Additionally, each decade of the rosary walks through part of scripture. Each decade has a “fruit of the mystery” to meditate on. So while the rosary can seem to non-Catholics as worshiping Mary or “over the top devotion” to Mary (not saying you said this, just using it as an example), the focus is God.
I sincerely implore anyone here who practises prayer to and veneration of Mary to examine your actions. What does God want from each of us? He wants us to love Him with all of our heart, soul and mind.
Does that mean we cannot love others with all our heart, soul and mind? Do I have to tell my parents I can love you with most of my heart, soul and mind, but not completely? Again, why does it have to be either / or? I can love God with all my heart, soul and mind and love my parents with all my heart, soul and mind. I can love Mary the same way for her choosing the will of God, saying yes to him and showing us a great example of how to respond to God.
 
Fair Lady,

I think a very good point was raised regarding your views of prayer. I think it would be profitable for you to investigate further the meaning of the word. I’m curious, did you have a chance to review some of my responces to your earlier points?
 
QUE VIVA LA VIRGEN MADRE DE DIOS!!!

RUEGA VIRGEN MADRE DE DIOS AHORA Y EN LA HORA DE NUESTRA MUERTE. AMEN :extrahappy: :gopray2:
 
You are absolutely right! I don’t know why it was so hard to bring that point across, but I’m glad at least one person got it.
Uh, Fair Lady, we all “got it.” So why did you word the OP as you did?? Why did you bring up all this stuff about intercessory prayers and how you believed that the prayers you took from the website were for more than intercession? Why continue letting this go on and on and on when the whole reason you are here is because you are against praying to Mary, period?? I did a lot of work in this thread and now I feel like you’ve been playing some sort of cruel joke.
There is a sobering warning in Romans 1:21-25 “For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and **exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man **and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
No matter how we slice it or dice it, devotion to Mary is an example of worshipping the creature rather than the Creator. She was a humble servant of God who would would magnify Him. Not ever would she approve of the devotion and honour that is being given to her through prayer and whatever other forms of veneration there are.
I sincerely implore anyone here who practises prayer to and veneration of Mary to examine your actions. What does God want from each of us? He wants us to love Him with all of our heart, soul and mind.
MATTHEW 22:36-40 NKJ
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
I’d like to share this video “Messages From Heaven” with anyone here who would care to watch it:
eternal-productions.org/messages_video.html
Yes, among many of the issues that come with this topic, that is definitely one to pursue.
**Where in the Bible does it state that Mary would never approve of "the devotion and honor that is being given to her through prayer and whatever other forms of veneration there are? "

Please cite book, chapter, and verse. And as this goes to the basis of your belief, please respond to this request.**
 
Fair Lady, I have another question for you.

Do you believe that Catholics who pray to Mary are blasphemers and/or idolaters??
 
I sincerely implore anyone here who practises prayer to and veneration of Mary to examine your actions. What does God want from each of us? He wants us to love Him with all of our heart, soul and mind.

MATTHEW 22:36-40 NKJ
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment. 39 "And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
Fair Lady, I am honestly confused. What is meant by “all” in the above Scripture passage? Does it mean utterly exclusive?

Please don’t quote more Scripture in response to my question - that only makes me more confused. Please just tell me what it means; if by “all” it means utterly exclusive.
 
I’m sorry that I can’t answer all posts. I really do try my best to pick out the ones that appear to address the most common concerns being expressed. I do appreciate all the time that each and every one of you put into this thread and while each of you deserve a response, my clock just ticks a little to quickly to be able to respond to each post and I really do regret that.
Mary is our intercessor, we talk to her by praying to her through Christ, her will being perfectly aligned to Gods, if our prayer intention is pleasing to God she will pray for us.
No, Mary is not our intercessor. This is what the Bible says about Who it is in the heavenlies that intercedes for us:

Romans 8:34 - “Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.”

Romans 8:27 - “and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.”

Hebrews 7:25 - "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (NASB ©1995)

Please don’t discount what the Bible says about this matter. It is so vitally important for our spiritual health.
I find your dodge of what I was getting at interesting, do you or do you not except the entirty of scripture as being divinly inspired?
Yes, I do believe that the entire scripture is divinely inspired, but the comment I was referring to tells us not to be content with it. I found that quite offensive to God’s inspired word.
Now since you are going on a tangent regarding the word of God, here is some more scripture for you to potificate on:
May I ask a favor of you? Rather than using the quotation function for scripture, could you please copy and paste? That makes it much easier to respond to each scripture because the quotation function doesn’t allow the scripture to be seen when responding to quotations. I’ll just say this about the first scripture you drew my attenition to - “Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” We can be sure that what these brethren were being told to hold fast to what had been preached to them, but we need to understand that what was preached to them was truth and had no conflict with what was scripture then and what became scripture later on. How do we know this? Because there are several sharp rebukes against following the tradition of men found in other places in scripture:

Mark 7:8
“You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

Mark 7:9
"And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!”

Matthew 15:6-7 (New International Version)
“…Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:”
Are you so sure, that the only existing word of God found is in the Bible?
Yes.
You’re trying to argue against intercessory prayer, I’m not sure if you’re entirly aware of this yet. I’m glad you at the very least accept intercessorary pray, though I’m a little confounded as to why you think someone stops being able to pray for you when they die, have you not read:
As stated elsewhere, I’m not against intercessory prayer, but I’m very much against praying to those who have died because I do not believe we should call up the dead even if they have made it to heaven. There are several severe warnings against the practise of contacting the dead in scripture, but I’ll list just a couple:

“Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31)

“And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6)

Oops, too long…To be continued
 
Continuation…
We can go to Strong’s Concordance to get a good definition of what “familiar spirits” means:

0178 bwa 'owb obe

from the same as 01 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father’s name); TWOT-37a; n m

AV-familiar spirit( s) 16, bottles 1; 17
  1. water skin bottle
  2. necromancer
    1b) necromancer, one who evokes the dead
    1c) ghost, spirit of a dead one
    1d) practice of necromancy
  3. one that has a familiar spirit
I will never ever try to contact someone who has died before me. Rather, I will always make my requests known to the One True God who is the everlasting Almighty God and under whom no man or woman has or will ever be God.
Now lastly, I wonder. Did you get a chance to read Cardnel Newman’s “The Second Eve” which I liked to off google books?
I haven’t had the time to delve into that book. Honestly, I would only be inclined to do so if I could be assured that it will be 100 percent in line with what scripture has to say, with nothing added to it.
It’s very relivent to this discussion not only because it discusses Mary’s role in the economy of salvation, but actually discusses it from the point of view of the earliest christians.
Mary’s role in the economy of salvation can be summed up in whatever scripture has to say about it and nothing more.
He quotes those very Martyrs who so many thousands of years ago gave their lives in the Roman Coliseum. Are you at all curious exaction what faith it was that they gave their lives for?
If those martyrs gave their lives for the gospel of Jesus Christ, then yes, I could be interested in reading about them. If they gave their lives for any other reason, then I probably wouldn’t be inclined to hear any more about them.
 
Why did you bring up all this stuff about intercessory prayers and how you believed that the prayers you took from the website were for more than intercession? Why continue letting this go on and on and on when the whole reason you are here is because you are against praying to Mary, period?? I did a lot of work in this thread and now I feel like you’ve been playing some sort of cruel joke.
I honestly thought it was common knowledge that I am against praying to anyone other than God. This topic, like pretty much any topic, is so multi-faceted that it’s very difficult to stick to preceisely only the main idea expressed in the opener. I’m sorry that you feel like it’s a cruel joke, but I really did think that you knew that I wasn’t in favour of praying to anyone other than God. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense that you are of a nature that thrives on precision (which is a very admirable trait) and when there is a task at hand, that is where the focus should remain. I also like precision, which is a must for the nature of my work, but I don’t mind relaxing my focus on a specific topic to include some its other dimensions. For that reason, we may be in conflict about how a thread should evolve, but I hope that won’t cause too much grief. Handshake? 🙂
**Where in the Bible does it state that Mary would never approve of "the devotion and honor that is being given to her through prayer and whatever other forms of veneration there are? "
Please cite book, chapter, and verse. And as this goes to the basis of your belief, please respond to this request.**
Mary would not approve of something that Jesus would not approve of. Luke 11:27 – “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.” Jesus Christ refuses to allow the worship in Luke 11:28 – “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”

Mary was a humble servant of God who, while she knew that God blessed her, also knew that God was higher than her and she magnified Him, not the other way around. I’m sure you’re familiar with Luke 1:46 and on…"And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant…” It would be inconsistent with that humility for Mary to want the veneration and worship that should be God’s alone.

Here’s an excellent article on this whole subject:

healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/jesus-christ-specifically-forbad-mary-veneration-in-luke-1127-28/
 
I honestly thought it was common knowledge that I am against praying to anyone other than God. This topic, like pretty much any topic, is so multi-faceted that it’s very difficult to stick to preceisely only the main idea expressed in the opener. I’m sorry that you feel like it’s a cruel joke, but I really did think that you knew that I wasn’t in favour of praying to anyone other than God. Correct me if I am wrong, but I sense that you are of a nature that thrives on precision (which is a very admirable trait) and when there is a task at hand, that is where the focus should remain. I also like precision, which is a must for the nature of my work, but I don’t mind relaxing my focus on a specific topic to include some its other dimensions. For that reason, we may be in conflict about how a thread should evolve, but I hope that won’t cause too much grief. Handshake? 🙂
In the spirit of Christianity, humility, and love, I will be happy to shake your hand.
Mary would not approve of something that Jesus would not approve of. Luke 11:27 – “And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.” Jesus Christ refuses to allow the worship in Luke 11:28 – “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
How do you know that “Mary would not approve of something that Jesus would not approve of?” Please cite book, chapter, and verse which shows this is stated in the Bible.
Mary was a humble servant of God who, while she knew that God blessed her, also knew that God was higher than her and she magnified Him, not the other way around. I’m sure you’re familiar with Luke 1:46 and on…"And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant…” It would be inconsistent with that humility for Mary to want the veneration and worship that should be God’s alone.
Here’s an excellent article on this whole subject:
I’m sorry, but I checked out your last link and it saddens me to read such anti-Catholic sentiment and errors about my Faith. I’ve run across way too much of that lately.

Hail Mary!! You are full of grace, the Lord is surely with you!! How blessed you are among all women, and how blessed is the fruit of your womb, our Savior, Jesus.
Holy Mary!! Sweet mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Am I committing blasphemy by saying that prayer (BTW, I say a prayer very similar to that one, called the “Hail Mary”, a mimimum of 100 times a day - every day)? So am I an idolator?

I know that you have a lot of posts to answer, but I am requesting that you answer the post I wrote about the word “all” in the Scripture passage you provided. It’s in Post 221. Thank you.

Pax vobiscum.
 
May I ask a favor of you? Rather than using the quotation function for scripture, could you please copy and paste? That makes it much easier to respond to each scripture because the quotation function doesn’t allow the scripture to be seen when responding to quotations.
It’s actually a violation of forum rules to provide entire quotes when a link can be used. People do provide entire quotes, but we are encouraged to not do so. I agree that it makes it difficult, but I believe it is a CAF rule that we should follow.

There is a forum somewhere where you can post problems you are having with the website. I have posted there a few times. I’m not quite sure where it is, but if you want to post your thoughts about this forum rule I can find out for you.
 
Heh… :rolleyes:

Catholics “don’t pray to or worship Mary,” but yet over 60% of those taking the poll would have no problems using those listed prayers in the OP. Just looking at the first 3 alone, there is no mention of Jesus or God. They are strictly to Mary. They even mention kneeling before her (statue). Sorry people, deny all you want to, you do pray to Mary, and in many fashions, worship her. Those first few prayers are not intercession in any shape or form. They are to Mary and asking for her help, plain and simple.

Do a little biblical research and see if you can find the story of a certain someone bowing down before angels who came to visit him, and they quickly told him to rise and not worship them, for only God is to be worshipped.

If you can’t, I’ll post the passage in a bit.
 
Heh… :rolleyes:

Catholics “don’t pray to or worship Mary,” but yet over 60% of those taking the poll would have no problems using those listed prayers in the OP. Just looking at the first 3 alone, there is no mention of Jesus or God. They are strictly to Mary. They even mention kneeling before her (statue). Sorry people, deny all you want to, you do pray to Mary, and in many fashions, worship her. Those first few prayers are not intercession in any shape or form. They are to Mary and asking for her help, plain and simple.

Do a little biblical research and see if you can find the story of a certain someone bowing down before angels who came to visit him, and they quickly told him to rise and not worship them, for only God is to be worshipped.

If you can’t, I’ll post the passage in a bit.
Why is your heart so hard toward Mary? You will never understand what Mary does for us sinners. She is our dear Mother who begs God for mercy on our behalf. When we doubt the possibility of our salvation, she is the one that comforts us and intercedes for us. When we don’t have faith, she is the one that encourages and strengthens us.

Yes I will bow before her because I love and thank her. It is not for her sake that I should bow before her. Mary doesn’t need my respect or love. It is for the good of my own soul. If I do not have gratitude for such a dear Mother who not only brought about the birth of my savior and also helps me in my every weakness, I will be damning myself.

If you insist on judging us from exterior signs, you will never understand what Mary means for us sinners. Perhaps you have not committed grave sins as to desire such a great helper as Mary. In any case not understanding Mary’s role in your salvation will be your loss.

Do you doubt that Mary’s prayers are invincible with God? Do you doubt that Jesus will grant to Mary whatever she asks, since she is the one that perfectly loves Him and she is the one that He first gave Himself to? If Mary obtains whatever she prays for, how is it you don’t believe we should have complete confidence in her help?

Do you not know that our lives are filled with evil and trouble? Do you not know that we need help each day, whatever help we can get, in order to be triumphant over evil?

Do you not have evils in your own life that suggest to you you need a powerful intercessor with Christ? Are you own prayers good enough?
 
Heh… :rolleyes:

Catholics “don’t pray to or worship Mary,” but yet over 60% of those taking the poll would have no problems using those listed prayers in the OP. Just looking at the first 3 alone, there is no mention of Jesus or God. They are strictly to Mary. They even mention kneeling before her (statue). Sorry people, deny all you want to, you do pray to Mary, and in many fashions, worship her. Those first few prayers are not intercession in any shape or form. They are to Mary and asking for her help, plain and simple.

Do a little biblical research and see if you can find the story of a certain someone bowing down before angels who came to visit him, and they quickly told him to rise and not worship them, for only God is to be worshipped.

If you can’t, I’ll post the passage in a bit.
Of course Catholics pray to Mary!! Sheesh. And yes, some of us kneel before a statue that depicts an artist’s representation of Mary. We don’t believe the statue is Mary!! Do you ever look at a photograph of a loved one? If you do so, why? Is it because it makes you think about that loved one? Is there something wrong with that? I don’t think so!!

Do you ever look at a cross and think about the sufferings Jesus went through when He was crucified?? Why? You’re just looking at a cross - it’s not the cross that Jesus was nailed to. Is it? It’s the same thing with a statue or a painting or a drawn picture of an artist’s conception of Mary. It reminds us of Mary.

Should we ignore the Pieta? Have it broken into bits? It’s not Jesus and Mary - it’s a statue.

All these things remind us of Mary and Jesus. And when we kneel, we are not kneeling in adoration of a statue or a painting or a picture. We are kneeling while we happen to be looking at a statue or a painting or a picture.

Do you like that poll?? Here is a copy of an earlier post in this thread, regarding that poll:

I did a bit of statistical analysis of your stated results of your poll. Let’s assume that every forum member who clicked on Option #2 is Catholic. (I am aware that the number of members that have responded to your poll has probably changed but this is the number I am aware of and will use.)

What I discovered is that the percentage of Catholics who clicked on Option #2 represents ** .016 percent** of Catholics on CAF. (If anyone is interested in how I calculated this percentage, please PM me and I will be glad to share my procedure. I don’t want to write a long explanation here, except to state that I used CAF data on total forum members and then calculated how many of those members are Catholic.)

.016 percent. That is an extremely small percentage. Extremely small!! It doesn’t even come close to one percent or even 1/10 of one percent. I don’t understand how anyone can come to any valid conclusion about the practice of Catholics praying to Mary using the prayers you have provided when using the responses of **.016 percent **of the Catholics on CAF. Note: I only used the number of Catholics on CAF, not the number of Catholics in the USA or in Canada, or in North America, or in the entire world.

I have already listed possible confounding factors. Among these are:
(1) not everyone who identifies themself as a Catholic may really be Catholic;
(2) forum members may have voted more than once;
(3) forum members who identify themselves as Catholic may have clicked on Option #2 because someone else told them to do so;
(4) forum members may have clicked on Option #2 because they were limited by the options you provided and were attempting to click on an option which they felt was “closest” to what they actually believe.

These factors (as they confound the study) need to be taken into consideration. As you “love to research” I am fairly certain that you will agree that confounding factors are extremely important when it comes to reaching conclusions based upon data.
 
Heh… :rolleyes:

Catholics “don’t pray to or worship Mary,” but yet over 60% of those taking the poll would have no problems using those listed prayers in the OP. Just looking at the first 3 alone, there is no mention of Jesus or God. They are strictly to Mary. They even mention kneeling before her (statue). Sorry people, deny all you want to, you do pray to Mary, and in many fashions, worship her. Those first few prayers are not intercession in any shape or form. They are to Mary and asking for her help, plain and simple.

Do a little biblical research and see if you can find the story of a certain someone bowing down before angels who came to visit him, and they quickly told him to rise and not worship them, for only God is to be worshipped.

If you can’t, I’ll post the passage in a bit.
Of course Catholics pray to Mary!! Sheesh. And yes, some of us kneel before a statue that depicts an artist’s representation of Mary. We don’t believe the statue is Mary!! Do you ever look at a photograph of a loved one? If you do so, why? Is it because it makes you think about that loved one? Is there something wrong with that? I don’t think so!!

Do you ever look at a cross and think about the sufferings Jesus went through when He was crucified?? Why? You’re just looking at a cross - it’s not the cross that Jesus was nailed to. Is it? It’s the same thing with a statue or a painting or a drawn picture of an artist’s conception of Mary. It reminds us of Mary.

Should we ignore the Pieta? Have it broken into bits? It’s not Jesus and Mary - it’s a statue.

All these things remind us of Mary and Jesus. And when we kneel, we are not kneeling in adoration of a statue or a painting or a picture. We are kneeling while we happen to be looking at a statue or a painting or a picture.

Do you like that poll?? Here is a copy of an earlier post in this thread, regarding that poll:

I did a bit of statistical analysis of your stated results of your poll. Let’s assume that every forum member who clicked on Option #2 is Catholic. (I am aware that the number of members that have responded to your poll has probably changed but this is the number I am aware of and will use.)

What I discovered is that the percentage of Catholics who clicked on Option #2 represents ** .016 percent** of Catholics on CAF. (If anyone is interested in how I calculated this percentage, please PM me and I will be glad to share my procedure. I don’t want to write a long explanation here, except to state that I used CAF data on total forum members and then calculated how many of those members are Catholic.)

.016 percent. That is an extremely small percentage. Extremely small!! It doesn’t even come close to one percent or even 1/10 of one percent. I don’t understand how anyone can come to any valid conclusion about the practice of Catholics praying to Mary using the prayers you have provided when using the responses of **.016 percent **of the Catholics on CAF. Note: I only used the number of Catholics on CAF, not the number of Catholics in the USA or in Canada, or in North America, or in the entire world.

I have already listed possible confounding factors. Among these are:
(1) not everyone who identifies themself as a Catholic may really be Catholic;
(2) forum members may have voted more than once;
(3) forum members who identify themselves as Catholic may have clicked on Option #2 because someone else told them to do so;
(4) forum members may have clicked on Option #2 because they were limited by the options you provided and were attempting to click on an option which they felt was “closest” to what they actually believe.

These factors (as they confound the study) need to be taken into consideration. As you “love to research” I am fairly certain that you will agree that confounding factors are extremely important when it comes to reaching conclusions based upon data.
 
Err - LittleSoldier, what’s wrong with voting for Option 2? What’s wrong with those prayers? How are they more incorrect than the “Hail, Holy Queen” which is used at the end of the rosary and after night prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours?

Hail, Holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweet Virgin Mary.

That’s an approved and commonly used prayer but you seem to be implying there is something wrong with praying that way. Please don’t denigrate your fellow Catholics who may have a stronger Marian devotion than you do, simply because there are Protestants hanging around.
 
Err - LittleSoldier, what’s wrong with voting for Option 2? What’s wrong with those prayers? How are they more incorrect than the “Hail, Holy Queen” which is used at the end of the rosary and after night prayer in the Liturgy of the Hours?

Hail, Holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweet Virgin Mary.

That’s an approved and commonly used prayer but you seem to be implying there is something wrong with praying that way. Please don’t denigrate your fellow Catholics who may have a stronger Marian devotion than you do, simply because there are Protestants hanging around.
Read Post 21. It’s my post. I’m not denigrating Catholics at all; I love Mary and pray to her every day and I use that prayer because it’s part of the Rosary. I also use it just by itself. It’s a beautiful prayer.

My objection is not about praying to Mary. My objection is the poll which was designed by the OP. The number of Catholics who responded to the poll represents such a small percentage that it is an error to conclude anything about the behavior of Catholics when using the obtained results of said poll. I have a background in research methodology so I noticed the problems immediately.

That’s all. You’d have to read the whole thread to understand. I don’t even remember the prayers the OP posted. I read them once and haven’t read them again. I’ve never posted anything positive or negative about the prayers.

But I have been defending the practice of praying to Mary all through this thread and through the previous thread Fair Lady started on the same subject.

I hope this helps!!

Ave Maria!! Ora pro nobis!!
 
Oh, hehe, ok. :o Sorry for misunderstanding you! Reading long apologetic threads makes me feel tired and annoyed. That’s why I usually avoid them … and obviously, I didn’t read this one very carefully, although I tried.
 
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