Prayers to Mary

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Dear Fair Lady,

I feel like I’m monopolizing the thread, which was never my intent but just the way some threads develop.

I’m not going to post any more for a few days (at least). That way you will have time to respond to other posters (if you care to do so). I know you have been asked a lot of questions and numerous comments have been made in response to your posts and I would feel a bit overwhelmed by it if it were happening to me.

(Of course I will be reading the posts…) 🙂

See ya later!!
May God bless us all with joy and peace,

Christina

[SIGN]I Luv My Polydactly Tortie!![/SIGN]
 
Dear Fair Lady,

I am going to repeat a question which has been asked several times without an answer being provided (I apologize if you have provided an answer that I have missed). Then, because I feel that I am monopolizing the thread (I’m not blaming anyone - some threads just develop in this way), I am not going to post for a few days (at least).

(Of course I will be reading the posts…) 🙂

This will give you time to answer the following question (which several members have asked), just in case you want to answer it. And you will have more time to respond to other posts. I realize that you are being questioned a lot and many comments have been made in response to your posts and I know if it were happening to me I would feel a bit overwhelmed. Also, the illness I have is a degenerative disease for which there is no cure and honestly, I have not been feeling too well lately.

The question is:

Who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

I’ll catch up with you later!!
May God bless us all with peace and joy!!
 
I don’t think any one of us can claim infallibility in the interpretation of scripture. But God blesses and provides understanding to those who diligently study scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
This is a very dangerous thing to say, and the reason why there are Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Charmismatics, Quakers, Presbyterians, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, various cults,etc. All claim to have the “true” interpretation of scripture yet they all have very different doctrines (SDAs worship on Saturday, Anabaptists won’t participate in governmen, Pentecostals say speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation, etc.) Obviously they’re not all right. So who is? How do you know for sure?
 
Dear Fair Lady,

This will give you time to answer the following question (which several members have asked), just in case you want to answer it. And you will have more time to respond to other posts. I realize that you are being questioned a lot and many comments have been made in response to your posts and I know if it were happening to me I would feel a bit overwhelmed. Also, the illness I have is a degenerative disease for which there is no cure and honestly, I have not been feeling too well lately.
LittleSoldier, I truly am sorry that you are going through such trials. I will pray for you, that you will experience comfort and blessings from God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The question is:
Who decides if the prayer is in accordance with God’s will?
That is for God to decide. But I prefer the word “know”. He knows whether or not we are in His will and are doing His will. See post 78 for the answer I gave to this.
 
This is a very dangerous thing to say, and the reason why there are Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Charmismatics, Quakers, Presbyterians, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, various cults,etc. All claim to have the “true” interpretation of scripture yet they all have very different doctrines (SDAs worship on Saturday, Anabaptists won’t participate in governmen, Pentecostals say speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation, etc.) Obviously they’re not all right. So who is? How do you know for sure?
You forgot to add “Catholic” to your list. 🙂

Just a comment regarding Protestant religions - you would find that the core beliefs in the major docrines among the different denominations are basically the same, but with differences in the emphasis of certain things (the minors). Interestingly, on Catholic Answers (EWTN) last week, a Catholic priest stated that the same occurs within the Catholic church. There are differences among the Catholics too by way of emphasis on
minor doctrines.

But I do agree with you, that misinterpretation of scripture is a very dangerous thing. That’s why we have to discern very critically everything we hear from someone, no matter what their position is within the church. We must find out if what they are saying agrees with scripture. I’ve given the example of the Bereans before. When Paul went to teach and preach to them, they compared what he said to the scripture of their day and Paul commended them for it.
 
Unless God’s Word was dropped by little Angles from Heaven under one cover, your first post contradicts your second.
No contradiction. What we have in scripture is God’s word, not man’s word. Man wrote the Bible under the inspiration of God, but God has preserved it to this day for Jesus said in Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away”.

On the other hand, man has the capacity to be fallible in the interpetation of God’s word. God alone is unfallible, man is fallible. What is truly amazing is that God used fallible man to record God’s unfallible word.
 
Just a comment regarding Protestant religions - you would find that the core beliefs in the major docrines among the different denominations are basically the same, but with differences in the emphasis of certain things (the minors). Interestingly, on Catholic Answers (EWTN) last week, a Catholic priest stated that the same occurs within the Catholic church. There are differences among the Catholics too by way of emphasis on minor doctrines.
Just to clarify. There are two distinctions that need to be made in what you are trying to claim here. One is that the Catholic Church has orders which emphasize different things such as teaching, defending the Pope, devotion to saints, etc. None of these are in contradiction to the Church’s teachings, they are just an emphasis on one thing the Church teaches and not in exclusion of any other teaching. If a priest teaches contraception is ok, they are not Catholic in practice, just on paper. It is quite simple in the Catholic Church. If you believe there is a Catholic order who profess women can be priests, what you are looking at is a heretical group with the label of Catholic, not a Catholic order that is in unity with the Catholic Church.

The second thing is that what you are claiming is that Baptists and Presbyterians (for example) share the same core belief but put emphasis on different topics. This is just not a truthful statement. Baptists, for example do not believe in infant baptism while Presbyterians do. Baptists believe in the free will of people playing a role in their salvation, Presbyterians believe that we are predestined to our life with or without God and so our free will does not really play a part in our eternal salvation, it is all a grace God bestows on some and not others. Of course, because of the mass confusion within the protestant denominations, you will find Baptists and Presbyterians that disagree with what I said. This is not because it is not their belief, it is because there are at least 10 sects in each of those major denominations each one claiming different theology than the other 9 sects. What you call an emphasis in minor beliefs is actually a disagreement in theology and it is actually impossible to make any claim in the protestant world about any denomination without someone saying it isn’t true. This is because in the major denomination, there is division and protest from within. You can find more of a core doctrine in these denominations among themselves, but you cannot apply this across all protestants.

I would love to ask you some questions, but I think it would take the thread off topic so feel free to just read them for reflection. Where are these major and minor doctrines defined? Where is it said that only the major doctrines must be agreed upon? I assume you are in the Sola Scriptura crowd and so it must be in scripture somewhere and not just implicitly. Where does it say that baptism is a minor doctrine? Where does it say that the Eucharist is a minor doctrine? Where does it say that the Trinity is a major doctrine? The fact is, the one constant among protestants is that there is no semblance of unity. There is no core major doctrine that they agree on. This is a myth perpetuated by the protestants in an attempt to argue a unity in some invisible church that does not require visible unity. This concept is foreign to scripture and when people profess to be Sola Scriptura, it should be there if you wish to profess it. If you believe the Trinity is a major doctrine and the only major doctrine, then you may be able to defend your point.

What is funny to me is that you can’t even include Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide in some common core belief system. The way people understand them is not only different from the reformers, but is different among the protestant denominations. Within the other doctrines, Calvinist’s today do not hold the same beliefs as John Calvin. Lutheran’s today do not hold the same beliefs as Martin Luther. There is no common doctrine among protestants except to protest which is the explanation for the tens of thousands of distinct denominations. The last thing you can say about protestants is that there is a unity in any belief, outside of the Trinity. If you pick any topic other than this, you will be damning half of the protestant community.

Just realize that there is a significant difference between what the Catholic Church teaches about orders and what the protestant churches teach about unity in doctrine.

God Bless.
 
No contradiction. What we have in scripture is God’s word, not man’s word. Man wrote the Bible under the inspiration of God, but God has preserved it to this day for Jesus said in Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away”.
What are you not understanding here Fair Lady. If you seriously believe God is incabable of making Man infallible at times when it comes to preaching and teaching His Word to the faithful, then the Apostles could have preached error and that preaching written down incorrectly.

So yes or no. Do you believe that God did prevent ‘certain’ men from teaching error when it came to preaching and (or) preserving His Word?
 
On the other hand, man has the capacity to be fallible in the interpetation of God’s word. God alone is unfallible, man is fallible.
Which actually says (according to your sS theory) that nobody really does know the absolute truth when it comes to ALL of the essentials that the Apostles preached now does it. You could be wrong about alot of things as sure as you are now then proceeding to teach your error to other Christians. You honestly believe that this is what Christ intended when He said to go and to Teach and Preach unto the world? That His Word would be impossible to obtain with a complete sense of security?
 
No contradiction. What we have in scripture is God’s word, not man’s word. Man wrote the Bible under the inspiration of God, but God has preserved it to this day for Jesus said in Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away”.

On the other hand, man has the capacity to be fallible in the interpetation of God’s word. God alone is unfallible, man is fallible. What is truly amazing is that God used fallible man to record God’s unfallible word.
Why do you believe Christ when he says that, and not believe him when he tells his Apostles:

Luke 10:16
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=10&l=16&f=s#x
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
 
(the minors).
I used to say the same thing as a Protestant, however, what would you consider to be minor?

For example, I used to hold to the Baptist view on Baptism…until I started reading what early Christians believed. You will find that the Early Church Fathers linked John 3:5 with water Baptism.

“5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:5&version=KJV) (accessed /1/18/10)

Now, Protestants do not unanimously agree whether or not Baptism is neccessary (in normal circumstances) for salvation. The early Church was unanimous on this fact. So, IMO, this is a major that some hold to be a minor.

Also, take the Eucharist for example. The early Church and the same Church on into the future taught the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist for the first 1200-1500 years without serious objection (source: a Catholic Answers tract I can’t find at the moment:o) Furthermore, we have the words of the Savior that, “…Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” (John 6:53) (Ibid.) Now, Catholic teaching holds that, ordinarily, this is true. So the Eucharist is something that I think some would see as a “minor” when the reality is that it is a major.

In dealing w/ the Gnostic Heretics of his day (early 2nd century), St. Ignatious of Antioch (who was possibly ordained a Bishop by St. Peter himself) wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.” (newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm) (1/18/10)

The problem is, if the Apostolic teaching is one thing and somebody, years later comes up with their own private interpretation, they depart from the teaching of the Apostles, who: “…like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her [he is speaking of the Church] hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. Revelation 22:17 For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers.” Against Heresies, St. Irenaeous, Bishop of Lyons, second century (newadvent.org/fathers/0103304.htm) (1/18/10.) (Colored comment mine)

In short, it is the Church who holds the Sacred Tradition, of which Scripture is a part of, who is able to correctly interpret the bible by virtue of the fact that the Apostles handed on their teaching to her, also, by virtue of the fact that the Church is to arbitrate in matters of faith & morals amongst believers (Mathew 18:15) and that Her decision is binding (Mathew 18:16), and that the Church is protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit (Mathew 16:18, John 16:13.)

I believe that in the context of novel interpretations, St. Vincent of Lerins wisely said this:

“Therefore, as soon as the corruption of each mischievous error begins to break forth, and to defend itself by filching certain passages of Scripture, and expounding them fraudulently and deceitfully, forthwith the opinions of the ancients in the interpretation of the canon are to be collected, whereby the novelty . . . may be condemned. But the opinions of those Fathers only are to be used for comparison who, living and teaching, holily, wisely, and with constancy, in the Catholic faith and communion, were counted worthy either to die in the faith of Christ or to suffer death happily for Christ. Whom yet we are to believe on this condition, that only is to be accounted indubitable, certain, established, which either all or the most part have supported and confirmed manifestly, frequently, persistently, in one and the same sense, forming, as it were, a consentient council of doctors, all receiving, holding, handing on the same doctrine. But whatsoever a teacher holds, be he a bishop, be he a confessor, be he a martyr, let that be regarded as a private fancy of his own, and [let it] be separated from the authority common, public, general persuasion. (Commonitoria 28:72-23 [A.D. 434])” (catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/early%20Church/page4) (accessed 1/18/10) (emphasis mine.)

So, to ask a question Fair Lady, would you consider the debate on Baptismal Regeneration (held by some but not all Protestants) and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (held by some but not all Protestants), to be a “minor issue.”

I would submit to you that any concept of agreeing on the “majors” but disagreeing on the “minors” if the “minors” include Baptism and/or the Eucharist, would be a tradition of men passed on to you by an incorrect, albeit well intentioned, person.

Don’t get me wrong, truly somethings are “minor” and these, I believe would relate more to disciplines, not Dogma.

Peace,

Nick
 
Fair Lady,

I have read this thread from the beginning to now. I haven’t seen you actually debate anyone on this thread at all. All I have seen is you posturing. But one thing you said really caught my attention:
What method? My information is that Joseph Smith claims that the Book of Mormon is a devine revelation from God. We know that to be false because it does not concur with scripture and I see the Book of Mormon as something that was added to scripture, which violates Revelation 22:18.
If we are both lead by the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete, which will leads us into all truth) and yet we both read a point of scripture very differently (say, John 6 Bread of Life discourse) and we cannot come to an agreement, then what are we to do?

Scripture cannot be interpreted by scripture anymore than our constitution cannot be interpreted without an authority to tell us what it means! that is why we are to take matters to the church as the final authority (matt 18:17) because She is the pillar and bullwark of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15) NOT scripture!

You see, we don’t have the authority to interpret scripture. That has already been done…centuries ago by the church fathers.
Sometimes there are wrong teachings in the Protestant churches. All religions have that problem. How do we determine who is right? Go to the word of God.
That’s not what scripture OR tradition says we must do. We take it to the Church of the living God!
God decides. Get to know God and His word intimately and He will guide you and lead you in truth. Jesus said in John 10:27, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”.
Also Psalm 119:104,105:
“Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”
And what, exactly, do you think Catholics have been listening to for two millenia if not the voice our Our Lord Jesus Christ?!

It is your teaching that is new, not our ancient (and well documented) love and veneration of theotokos, the God-bearer.
 
Just to clarify. There are two distinctions that need to be made in what you are trying to claim here. One is that the Catholic Church has orders which emphasize different things such as teaching, defending the Pope, devotion to saints, etc. None of these are in contradiction to the Church’s teachings, they are just an emphasis on one thing the Church teaches and not in exclusion of any other teaching. If a priest teaches contraception is ok, they are not Catholic in practice, just on paper. It is quite simple in the Catholic Church. If you believe there is a Catholic order who profess women can be priests, what you are looking at is a heretical group with the label of Catholic, not a Catholic order that is in unity with the Catholic Church.
That’s good to know. In much the same way, I see heretical groups under the Protestant umbrella.
The second thing is that what you are claiming is that Baptists and Presbyterians (for example) share the same core belief but put emphasis on different topics. This is just not a truthful statement. Baptists, for example do not believe in infant baptism while Presbyterians do. Baptists believe in the free will of people playing a role in their salvation, Presbyterians believe that we are predestined to our life with or without God and so our free will does not really play a part in our eternal salvation, it is all a grace God bestows on some and not others. Of course, because of the mass confusion within the protestant denominations, you will find Baptists and Presbyterians that disagree with what I said. This is not because it is not their belief, it is because there are at least 10 sects in each of those major denominations each one claiming different theology than the other 9 sects. What you call an emphasis in minor beliefs is actually a disagreement in theology and it is actually impossible to make any claim in the protestant world about any denomination without someone saying it isn’t true. This is because in the major denomination, there is division and protest from within. You can find more of a core doctrine in these denominations among themselves, but you cannot apply this across all protestants.
You’re right…when I made the statement about the differing emphasis, my mind was on the different denominations that I’ve been a part of, and for them my statement held true. However, in the very broad sense as you have pointed out, there are major differences in theology among some of the different denominations.
I would love to ask you some questions, but I think it would take the thread off topic so feel free to just read them for reflection.
It’s so easy to come off topic :), so I’ll just save further discussion on such issues outside of this thread. I want to get back to the focus of the op before this thread gets locked again.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
My apologies - I didn’t word the question I asked you in my last post correctly. What I meant to write was:

How do you know if a prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

I’ll be going now. 🙂
 
You forgot to add “Catholic” to your list. 🙂
The difference between Catholicism and all of the other denominations I listed is that Catholics came first. All Protestant denominations can trace their roots back to the reformation, and that was a protest against the Catholic Church.
Just a comment regarding Protestant religions - you would find that the core beliefs in the major docrines among the different denominations are basically the same, but with differences in the emphasis of certain things (the minors). Interestingly, on Catholic Answers (EWTN) last week, a Catholic priest stated that the same occurs within the Catholic church. There are differences among the Catholics too by way of emphasis on
minor doctrines.
Well, I used to be a Seventh Day Adventist and they taught that all denominations who worship on Sunday do so because of some sun deity from ancient times. They are the ONLY church that worships on the “correct” day. I would say this is quite serious, because I am sure no Christian would want to honor some false pagan “god” by worshipping on Sunday. That’s just one example, but you’ll find the most important doctrine which is salvation, there are MANY different ideas of what it means to be saved, how to be saved, if you can keep your salvation, etc. within Protestant denominations.
But I do agree with you, that misinterpretation of scripture is a very dangerous thing. That’s why we have to discern very critically everything we hear from someone, no matter what their position is within the church. We must find out if what they are saying agrees with scripture. I’ve given the example of the Bereans before. When Paul went to teach and preach to them, they compared what he said to the scripture of their day and Paul commended them for it.
Totally agree.
 
My apologies - I didn’t word the question I asked you in my last post correctly. What I meant to write was:

How do you know if a prayer is in accordance with God’s will?

I’ll be going now. 🙂
I touched on this in post 105 so will just copy and paste:

Do I always know God’s will for my life and circumstances? No. Often I have to just place my trust in Him to carry me through as His providence unfolds in my life. Often I don’t see God’s will in a situation until I’ve been through the “mill”. After the crisis is over, I see His work in my life much more clearly than when I’m in that situation.

However, when it comes to prayer, the better I know God and His word, the easier it becomes to pray according to His will. I also know that the Holy Spirit intercedes for me in times when I just don’t know how to pray and I thank Him for that! Check out Romans 8:26-27: “And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weaknesses; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” Isn’t that a wonderful thing?!

In addition to that, I just want to say that it really isn’t always easy to pray according to God’s will because it means reigning in my will to conform with His. Ultimately, though, if we put what we’re praying for in His hands and offer ourselves completely to Him to do with us as He wills, we are then praying according to His will. Just like Jesus did in Luke 22:41,42: "And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

One more point and then I’ll go…if I pray against something that God says in His word or something that would cause Him to go against His perfection and holiness in order to provide what I asked for, I then know that I have prayed against His will.
 
Fair Lady,

I have read this thread from the beginning to now. I haven’t seen you actually debate anyone on this thread at all. All I have seen is you posturing. But one thing you said really caught my attention:

If we are both lead by the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete, which will leads us into all truth) and yet we both read a point of scripture very differently (say, John 6 Bread of Life discourse) and we cannot come to an agreement, then what are we to do?
Then we need to further study God’s word because one or both of us is wrong. The Holy Spirit will not give opposing answers.
Scripture cannot be interpreted by scripture anymore than our constitution cannot be interpreted without an authority to tell us what it means! that is why we are to take matters to the church as the final authority (matt 18:17)
The verse you refer to deals with discipline within the church after one is caught in sin. It doesn’t deal with interpretation of scripture. At the same time, I believe it is wise to study under teachers who have a solid grasp of the truth of scripture and who have used rightly divided the word of truth using sound hermeneutic principles and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
because She is the pillar and bullwark of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15) NOT scripture!
Read that again within context, verse 15 expecially. Paul is pointing the church to his writings (scripture) so that the church will have something to go by. "I write so that you will know"…verse 15.

Oops, I’ve run out of time. Will catch the rest later…
 
Then we need to further study God’s word because one or both of us is wrong. The Holy Spirit will not give opposing answers.
This is the crux of the matter, isn’t it? You and I both know that we can never agree on what Jesus is teaching us in, say, John 6. We both follow Christ and rely on the Holy Spirit. We both have carefully and prayerfully studied it and yet, here we are. But we both know that one view is crucially right and the other view is crucially wrong. Getting this wrong involves nothing less than the salvation of our souls. Your method of “further study” will yield no results.

I submit that we are unable to resolve the dispute. Only Jesus Himself could possibly explain what He meant in John 6. But he isn’t here. He left an authoritative Church to protect and explain what He meant. That is the Church that has existed for 2000 years instituted by Jesus Himself.

The problem is the Protestants have decided they do not trust the Church that Jesus left to protect and promote Truth.
The verse you refer to deals with discipline within the church after one is caught in sin. It doesn’t deal with interpretation of scripture.
Whether it is discipline or teaching correct doctrine the issue is who has the authority. Paul is clearly telling them by this passage that he wants his readers to know that the Church is the pillar and bullwark (or ground) of the truth. Truth cannot, ultimately, be known unless the Church promulgates it and protects and upholds it. The best evidence for this is the thousands of different interpretations of all the Protestant churches. The Protestant communities have splintered like a broken piece of wood!
Read that again within context, verse 15 expecially. Paul is pointing the church to his writings (scripture) so that the church will have something to go by. "I write so that you will know"…verse 15.
This is irrelevant to the point.
 
I submit that we are unable to resolve the dispute. Only Jesus Himself could possibly explain what He meant in John 6. But he isn’t here. He left an authoritative Church to protect and explain what He meant. That is the Church that has existed for 2000 years instituted by Jesus Himself.
I thought he left the Holy Spirit.
 
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