Prayers to Mary

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fair_Lady
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I thought he left the Holy Spirit.
Certainly. . .but as we have been at pains to show, two groups of Christians, both claiming the Holy Spirit, have absolutely ‘opposite’ understanding of John 6.

The Holy Spirit does not teach against Himself; therefore one group is wrong and one is right . . .

But both claim the Holy Spirit has guided them. How can that be?

By the Protestant interpretation, it appears that Jesus has just left individuals wandering around blindly, but IF they are ‘sincere’, they’ll wind up with the right teaching.

If they somehow wind up with the wrong teaching, it’s because they have somehow ‘rejected’ the right teaching and have ‘sinfully’ embraced the wrong one, because (supposedly) there is no way that the Holy Spirit will withhold the truth UNLESS the person freely rejects it.

Unless, of course, you’re of the calvinistic persuasion whereby you were hardwired for damnation/ salvation before you were made. :eek:
 
I thought he left the Holy Spirit.
Of course He did…to the Church (Jesus was addressing only the Apostles, the nacent Church, in John 14:16). In Matt 16:19 Jesus gave Peter the keys of Eliakim (See Isiah 22). These keys are essential to the mission Jesus gave the Church. The keys are a symbol of governing. Of stewardship. Peter and his successors are responsible to govern Jesus flock.
 
Unless, of course, you’re of the calvinistic persuasion whereby you were hardwired for damnation/ salvation before you were made. :eek:
I am pretty sure that I am not a Calvinist.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain. Revelation 13:8

But it also depends depends on how you see it. You can say that even before the beginning of the world God chose you. He looked into the future and wrote the names of those who believe in the Book of Life, the Lamb’s book. But it is not destiny. We still have choices. We do not have access to this Book of Life, so we do not know whether we go to Heaven of Hell. If if you are a believer know, you can still fall. And if you are a fallen person (or one who never stood up), you can still stand up. There is free will, so God did not make us believe. At the beginning of time, he looked into the future and noted into a Book the names of the saved ones. But since you do not know whether you have your name or not written in it, you still must do everything you can do (which is to believe) to be saved. Since the Book is closed and only God can see it, then it is useless for us to bother about it. We do not know, and since we do not know, then this changes nothing, since we still have to believe and be holy. It is like if He let everything happen without writing their names, but at the end of time He will write their names and then go back in time. It is something like that. Just that He didn’t travel into the future, but He just knew who will be saved and who will not. But, as I said, since we do not have access to this information, then it is useless to argue about it. We are loosing precious time discussing it, while we could give glory to the Lord by listening to Him and sanctifying ourselves with His help. Amen.
 
I am pretty sure that I am not a Calvinist.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain. Revelation 13:8

But it also depends depends on how you see it. You can say that even before the beginning of the world God chose you. He looked into the future and wrote the names of those who believe in the Book of Life, the Lamb’s book. But it is not destiny. We still have choices. We do not have access to this Book of Life, so we do not know whether we go to Heaven of Hell. If if you are a believer know, you can still fall. And if you are a fallen person (or one who never stood up), you can still stand up. There is free will, so God did not make us believe. At the beginning of time, he looked into the future and noted into a Book the names of the saved ones. But since you do not know whether you have your name or not written in it, you still must do everything you can do (which is to believe) to be saved. Since the Book is closed and only God can see it, then it is useless for us to bother about it. We do not know, and since we do not know, then this changes nothing, since we still have to believe and be holy. It is like if He let everything happen without writing their names, but at the end of time He will write their names and then go back in time. It is something like that. Just that He didn’t travel into the future, but He just knew who will be saved and who will not. But, as I said, since we do not have access to this information, then it is useless to argue about it. We are loosing precious time discussing it, while we could give glory to the Lord by listening to Him and sanctifying ourselves with His help. Amen.
I agree that it is somewhat of a waste of time for Christians to argue with other Christians. Where we disagree however is whether Christians can remain ‘fractured’ (by being Catholic, Orthodox, OR Protestant, all still Christians, all disagreeing with each other on a variety of teachings). . .or whether we must unite in order to give Him glory.

I say that we must unite because the longer we accept the falsehood that there is some kind of "christian’ around who need NOT be joined to a visible church and who need not follow Christ’s teachings but can footle around and change them to reflect societal mandate, the worse the fracturing is going to get.

In the meantime we do need to keep praying constantly (whether we ‘agree’ with our fellow Christians or not) but we also need to keep pushing for unity at the same time.
 
I touched on this in post 105 so will just copy and paste:

Do I always know God’s will for my life and circumstances? No. Often I have to just place my trust in Him to carry me through as His providence unfolds in my life. Often I don’t see God’s will in a situation until I’ve been through the “mill”. After the crisis is over, I see His work in my life much more clearly than when I’m in that situation.

However, when it comes to prayer, the better I know God and His word, the easier it becomes to pray according to His will. I also know that the Holy Spirit intercedes for me in times when I just don’t know how to pray and I thank Him for that! Check out Romans 8:26-27: “And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weaknesses; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” Isn’t that a wonderful thing?!

In addition to that, I just want to say that it really isn’t always easy to pray according to God’s will because it means reigning in my will to conform with His. Ultimately, though, if we put what we’re praying for in His hands and offer ourselves completely to Him to do with us as He wills, we are then praying according to His will. Just like Jesus did in Luke 22:41,42: "And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

One more point and then I’ll go…if I pray against something that God says in His word or something that would cause Him to go against His perfection and holiness in order to provide what I asked for, I then know that I have prayed against His will.
[Statement in green highlighted by LittleSoldier]

I would first of all like to know where you got the idea I have highlighted in your post. Is this in the Bible?

Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

If it’s not in the Bible, isn’t this just your opinion? If so, why should I believe it - just on your say-so??

If it’s true that this is the criterion for knowing that a prayer is in accordance with God’s will, then any prayers, including prayers to Mary placed in His hand, when we offer ourselves completely to Him, to do with us as He wills, are then prayed according to His will, regardless of how those prayers are worded.

Therefore, those prayers you condemn are acceptable to God, so long as the person praying them places those prayers in His hands and offers herself completely to Him to do with her as He wills.
 
I am pretty sure that I am not a Calvinist.

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain. Revelation 13:8

But it also depends depends on how you see it. You can say that even before the beginning of the world God chose you. He looked into the future and wrote the names of those who believe in the Book of Life, the Lamb’s book. But it is not destiny. We still have choices. We do not have access to this Book of Life, so we do not know whether we go to Heaven of Hell. If if you are a believer know, you can still fall. And if you are a fallen person (or one who never stood up), you can still stand up. There is free will, so God did not make us believe. At the beginning of time, he looked into the future and noted into a Book the names of the saved ones. But since you do not know whether you have your name or not written in it, you still must do everything you can do (which is to believe) to be saved. Since the Book is closed and only God can see it, then it is useless for us to bother about it. We do not know, and since we do not know, then this changes nothing, since we still have to believe and be holy. It is like if He let everything happen without writing their names, but at the end of time He will write their names and then go back in time. It is something like that. Just that He didn’t travel into the future, but He just knew who will be saved and who will not. But, as I said, since we do not have access to this information, then it is useless to argue about it. We are loosing precious time discussing it, while we could give glory to the Lord by listening to Him and sanctifying ourselves with His help. Amen.
What does this have to do with Fair Lady’s condemnation of prayers to Mary, worded as they are in the OP?

I think you are dragging this thread off topic and that is one way to get a thread closed. Is this what you want??

I don’t mean to imply that what you are stating here is irrelevant to the Christian faith in general, but I don’t see how it is relevant to this particular thread. If it is, would you please explain how it is relevant (because I am quite confused)?? :confused::confused::confused:
 
What does this have to do with Fair Lady’s condemnation of prayers to Mary, worded as they are in the OP?

I think you are dragging this thread off topic and that is one way to get a thread closed. Is this what you want??

I don’t mean to imply that what you are stating here is irrelevant to the Christian faith in general, but I don’t see how it is relevant to this particular thread. If it is, would you please explain how it is relevant (because I am quite confused)?? :confused::confused::confused:
I am sorry, it is just that sometimes I forget what thread I am posting in; I only focus in answering the question. Again, sorry! 😛
I would first of all like to know where you got the idea I have highlighted in your post. Is this in the Bible?
Please cite book, chapter, and verse.
If it’s not in the Bible, isn’t this just your opinion? If so, why should I believe it - just on your say-so??
If it’s true that this is the criterion for knowing that a prayer is in accordance with God’s will, then any prayers, including prayers to Mary placed in His hand, when we offer ourselves completely to Him, to do with us as He wills, are then prayed according to His will, regardless of how those prayers are worded.
Therefore, those prayers you condemn are acceptable to God, so long as the person praying them places those prayers in His hands and offers herself completely to Him to do with her as He wills.
When you address your prayers to Him, then yes. But if you are not praying to Him, but to Mary, this does not apply. If you are placing your prayers in His hands already, then it is no use to pray to the dead since He already knows about them. Since He is all powerful, He can help you. So you are saying He takes your prayer, and supposedly gives it to Mary, and then Mary gives it back to God. What’s with this loss of time? You can pray directly to God.
 
I am sorry, it is just that sometimes I forget what thread I am posting in; I only focus in answering the question. Again, sorry! 😛

When you address your prayers to Him, then yes. But if you are not praying to Him, but to Mary, this does not apply. If you are placing your prayers in His hands already, then it is no use to pray to the dead since He already knows about them. Since He is all powerful, He can help you. So you are saying He takes your prayer, and supposedly gives it to Mary, and then Mary gives it back to God. What’s with this loss of time? You can pray directly to God.
If I thought Mary was dead, I wouldn’t be praying to her either!

Do you think everyone in heaven is dead?
 
If I thought Mary was dead, I wouldn’t be praying to her either!

Do you think everyone in heaven is dead?
Do you believe the dead that are in Heaven praise the Lord? Answer my question and I shall answer thy question as well. 🙂
 
I am sorry, it is just that sometimes I forget what thread I am posting in; I only focus in answering the question. Again, sorry! 😛
Wow, I do that very thing and I’ve been called on it, too!! No problem!! I know it’s difficult to keep on topic when you want so much to answer something.
When you address your prayers to Him, then yes. But if you are not praying to Him, but to Mary, this does not apply. If you are placing your prayers in His hands already, then it is no use to pray to the dead since He already knows about them. Since He is all powerful, He can help you. So you are saying He takes your prayer, and supposedly gives it to Mary, and then Mary gives it back to God. What’s with this loss of time? You can pray directly to God.
Do you believe that the Saints (including Mary) are really dead? Would you please define “dead”? Didn’t you once state that Mary is “asleep?” I may have you confused with someone else and if so I apologize.
 
I shall answer with a question: are you dead when you’re asleep?
…]

Do you believe that the Saints (including Mary) are really dead? Would you please define “dead”? Didn’t you once state that Mary is “asleep?” I may have you confused with someone else and if so I apologize.
dead = asleep

Several times, the apostles, people in the Bible and even Jesus calls the dead asleep. So dead means asleep.

I will begin with Psalms 6:5.

No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?
(Psalms 6:5)

I would certainly remember God, if I would go to Heaven. Who would consciously forget Him?

What gain is there if I am silenced,
in my going down into the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
(Psalms 30:9)

David calls the dead “silenced”.

Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Destruction?
)(Psalms 88:11)

*It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
those who go down to silence;
it is we who extol the LORD,
both now and forevermore.
Praise the LORD. * (Psalms 115:17)

Perhaps Isaiah 38:18-19 is the easier to understand.

*For the grave [Sheol] cannot praise you,
death cannot sing your praise;
those who go down to the pit
cannot hope for your faithfulness.

The living, the living—they praise you,
as I am doing today;
fathers tell their children
about your faithfulness.* (Isaiah 38:18-19)

So those who went down into the grave do not praise the Lord. Only the living, the ones that are not asleep, only the living can praise God. When you pray, you, consciously or unconsciously, give glory to the Lord. When you pray, you say loudly that God can hear you, and since you obviously are not alone in this world, and others are praying as well, that He hears all prayers. By praying to Him you acknowledge that He is all powerful. So praying is giving glory, thus praising Jesus our Lord and the Spirit and the Father. But the dead, or asleep, do not give glory tot he Lord. They are silenced. They are sleeping. They are unconscious and are waiting for the day of the resurrection.

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” (Luke 11:11)

This does not even need interpretation. God calls Lazarus asleep.

I will quote some more passages from the New Testament.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:6)

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:20)

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51)

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. (1 Thessalonians 4:13)

Now I would like to get back to the Old Testament.
  • Why were there knees to receive me
    and breasts that I might be nursed?
    For now I would be lying down in peace;
    I would be asleep and at rest
    with kings and counselors of the earth,
    who built for themselves places now lying in ruins,
    with rulers who had gold,
    who filled their houses with silver.
    Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child,
    like an infant who never saw the light of day?
    There the wicked cease from turmoil,
    and there the weary are at rest.
    Captives also enjoy their ease;
    they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout.
    The small and the great are there,
    and the slave is freed from his master.* (Job 3:12-19)
So the dead are resting; they have fallen asleep waiting for resurrection.

Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more.
(Job 7:21)

This is quite direct. If he “will be no more”, we understand that he will be dead, that he lies in the dust. So, if he will be no more, how can he be in Heaven/Hell?

*But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.

As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.


"If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!* (Job 14:10-13)

Of course, we will resurrect at the end of times, and we will have a new heaven and earth. So while this heaven and earth are still here, nobody is going anywhere. While this sky and this earth is here, nobody is resurrecting to get eternal life.

I am sure that there are more in the Bible, but these are more than enough to realize that we are sleeping, and that there will be no immediate judgment from our point of view. Actually, for the dead, or asleep, time has no importance. Time does not affect them. Either if they died 2,000 years ago, or a day before the ending of times, it will be the same for them. Their last breath is on earth, and the new one would be at the judgment or in the new earth. But it will only take a breath (breath being the time between breathing). A second, if you wish to call it that way. So the dead are asleep waiting for the resurrection.
 
I shall answer with a question: are you dead when you’re asleep?

dead = asleep

Several times, the apostles, people in the Bible and even Jesus calls the dead asleep. So dead means asleep.

I will begin with Psalms 6:5.

No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave?
(Psalms 6:5)

I would certainly remember God, if I would go to Heaven. Who would consciously forget Him?

What gain is there if I am silenced,
in my going down into the pit?
Will the dust praise you?
Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
(Psalms 30:9)

David calls the dead “silenced”.

Is your love declared in the grave,
your faithfulness in Destruction?
)(Psalms 88:11)

*It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
those who go down to silence;
it is we who extol the LORD,
both now and forevermore.
Praise the LORD. * (Psalms 115:17)

Perhaps Isaiah 38:18-19 is the easier to understand.

*For the grave [Sheol] cannot praise you,
death cannot sing your praise;
those who go down to the pit
cannot hope for your faithfulness.

The living, the living—they praise you,
as I am doing today;
fathers tell their children
about your faithfulness.* (Isaiah 38:18-19)

So those who went down into the grave do not praise the Lord. Only the living, the ones that are not asleep, only the living can praise God. When you pray, you, consciously or unconsciously, give glory to the Lord. When you pray, you say loudly that God can hear you, and since you obviously are not alone in this world, and others are praying as well, that He hears all prayers. By praying to Him you acknowledge that He is all powerful. So praying is giving glory, thus praising Jesus our Lord and the Spirit and the Father. But the dead, or asleep, do not give glory tot he Lord. They are silenced. They are sleeping. They are unconscious and are waiting for the day of the resurrection.

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” (Luke 11:11)

This does not even need interpretation. God calls Lazarus asleep.

I will quote some more passages from the New Testament.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:6)

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:20)

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51)

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. (1 Thessalonians 4:13)

Now I would like to get back to the Old Testament.
  • Why were there knees to receive me
    and breasts that I might be nursed?
    For now I would be lying down in peace;
    I would be asleep and at rest
    with kings and counselors of the earth,
    who built for themselves places now lying in ruins,
    with rulers who had gold,
    who filled their houses with silver.
    Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child,
    like an infant who never saw the light of day?
    There the wicked cease from turmoil,
    and there the weary are at rest.
    Captives also enjoy their ease;
    they no longer hear the slave driver’s shout.
    The small and the great are there,
    and the slave is freed from his master.* (Job 3:12-19)
So the dead are resting; they have fallen asleep waiting for resurrection.

Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more.
(Job 7:21)

This is quite direct. If he “will be no more”, we understand that he will be dead, that he lies in the dust. So, if he will be no more, how can he be in Heaven/Hell?

*But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.

As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.
*

"If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me! (Job 14:10-13)

Of course, we will resurrect at the end of times, and we will have a new heaven and earth. So while this heaven and earth are still here, nobody is going anywhere. While this sky and this earth is here, nobody is resurrecting to get eternal life.

I am sure that there are more in the Bible, but these are more than enough to realize that we are sleeping, and that there will be no immediate judgment from our point of view. Actually, for the dead, or asleep, time has no importance. Time does not affect them. Either if they died 2,000 years ago, or a day before the ending of times, it will be the same for them. Their last breath is on earth, and the new one would be at the judgment or in the new earth. But it will only take a breath (breath being the time between breathing). A second, if you wish to call it that way. So the dead are asleep waiting for the resurrection.
Sheesh, all I asked for was a definition!! 🙂
 
Gee, I didn’t know Catholic doctrine was up for popular vote.
What an insulting thread.
These prayers are doctrine? I think not. There are only Four (4) doctrines of Mary to which we Catholics are bound. Most prayers, although praised by the magesterium, are not prayers that are doctrinally binding, and I do think some of the things said about Mary in some personal/popular prayers made by independent individuals are a bit much.

Anyway, we are not bound to these personal prayers, nor are we bound to accept any of the titles ascribed to her in these prayers (except for titles that correspond with the Four (4) doctrines of Mary).

So, no, Catholic doctrine is not up for vote here…Catholic Doctrine was not even mentioned by the OP. The OP is talking about the possibility that some prayers that have come out of Catholic culture, Catholic personal lives and personal/popular devotion may, in their vocabulary, push the boundaries a bit. A catholic could raise this same issue because it is about personal prayers, not about binding doctrine.

There is a certain degree to which I just don’t like hearing things like “in You (Mary) is my salvation” and many similar saying like that. Yes, Yes, theologically, they are OK because they mean it only in the way that we have not salvation apart from the incarnation. Likewise, we have no salvation apart from our salvation being birthed through Mary. This is not an issue of limiting God, as protestants often foolishly argue, but rather an acknowledgment of God’s plan. So, sure, it can be said as long as the implied meaning is referring to Christ being our salvation in a round about way, but WHY?!
Why? There is no need to push the limits this far? Why do so many of us find excuses to say these things about Mary so often, and many of the same of us don’t even put as much time into saying these things about and to JESUS in our prayer life!

If you’re going to say all these things about, and to Mary, simply because you can (because the true meaning is implied) or, indeed, out of love, do so…but make sure you say DOUBLE the same and MORE to and about Jesus Christ, our salvation (no round-about explanation or implication needed).

Just to clarify, I’m not condemning, I’m not speaking about the legitimacy of the theological meanings here, I’m simply talking about practicality. I just needed to vent.

God bless.
Praised Be Jesus Christ and blessed be his Mother, who’s prayers I now invoke.
 
Context, context, context. People go freaking out about the stuff said about Mary in prayers from emotional poetic periods. But they don’t read the kind of prayers people from said periods were praying about God, or Jesus; and they don’t look at the poetry written to people’s girlfriends or mommies or random bugs on the road. I mean, if you can write with a straight face that the entire universe exists for the benefit of the chick you saw for a moment, and whose name you don’t know, I think you would tend to go even more all out about the sacred and the divine. And that’s what people did do.

Sigh. It’s amazing how little people care about cultural context, and how willing they are to work themselves up over humble little private prayers that never did them any harm.

Five pages of small print prayer to Jesus, elaborately asking Him to make the person praying die before committing any serious sins, and trying to offer up every second of the rest of the person’s life to God with itemization of every possible activity, along with enumerations of everything great about God that the person could possibly stuff in? That is over the top. But of course, it’s not really possible to go too far when you’re talking to God. But this is what you have to compare Marian prayers against. This is what is in the back of the Catholic mind.

These little Mary prayers are nothing. Not only are they not in the same league, they’re not even playing the same game. They hardly ask or assume anything, compared to a real prayer to God. But non-Catholics don’t have this in the back of their mind, so they don’t see the scrupulous line between stuff you can say to God and stuff you can say to plain old holy people.

When we talk to Mary, we are talking to a personal friend who is also our spiritual mother. But since Mary is not God but a fellow Christian, we can let ourselves go and talk emotionally. We can be drippy with her in a way which we can’t with Jesus, because he’s a big brawny guy and God too. (Well, okay, you can be drippy with Him, but everybody else will gag and roll their eyes a lot. Some Catholic times and cultures are more comfortable with this; ours isn’t.)

But if people insist on butting their noses into private conversations that don’t concern them, they will no doubt overhear all sorts of intimate expressions which they will misunderstand. Sympathetic listeners will keep their mouths shut and their ears open until they do understand.
 
These prayers are doctrine? I think not. There are only Four (4) doctrines of Mary to which we Catholics are bound. Most prayers, although praised by the magesterium, are not prayers that are doctrinally binding, and I do think some of the things said about Mary in some personal/popular prayers made by independent individuals are a bit much.

There is a certain degree to which I just don’t like hearing things like “in You (Mary) is my salvation” and many similar saying like that. Yes, Yes, theologically, they are OK because they mean it only in the way that we have not salvation apart from the incarnation. Likewise, we have no salvation apart from our salvation being birthed through Mary. This is not an issue of limiting God, as protestants often foolishly argue, but rather an acknowledgment of God’s plan. So, sure, it can be said as long as the implied meaning is referring to Christ being our salvation in a round about way, but WHY?!
Why? There is no need to push the limits this far? Why do so many of us find excuses to say these things about Mary so often, and many of the same of us don’t even put as much time into saying these things about and to JESUS in our prayer life!

If you’re going to say all these things about, and to Mary, simply because you can (because the true meaning is implied) or, indeed, out of love, do so…but make sure you say DOUBLE the same and MORE to and about Jesus Christ, our salvation (no round-about explanation or implication needed).

Just to clarify, I’m not condemning, I’m not speaking about the legitimacy of the theological meanings here, I’m simply talking about practicality. I just needed to vent.

God bless.
Praised Be Jesus Christ and blessed be his Mother, who’s prayers I now invoke.
You are indeed correct in your reference to Doctrine. These prayers are not Doctrine. I believe the poster was referring to the entire subject of the role of Mary in the Catholic Church, aspects of which as you have stated above, are Doctrine.

So far I haven’t seen anyone post that they personally use these prayers. These are not the prayers of any poster here, as far as I know. I think you might be going a bit overboard in your implication that the people in this thread are actually using these prayers. I’ve seen no evidence of that. I also wonder why you feel it is necessary to tell people how to pray. Where does the Church teach that we must pray directly to (and about) Jesus twice as much (or more) than we pray to Mary? Who are you to tell other people how to pray or to whom we should pray?? Who put you in charge of praying??

My point through this entire thread is that these are private prayers, written as a labor of love by a person who is not a representative of the Catholic Church, his/her diocese, or his/her parish. Therefore I can’t defend the prayers or really even comment on what they say. They are personal prayers, offered on a website (which anyone is free to form) to help people who want well, uh, some help with their prayers. But for some reason, the fact that the website has been formed by someone who says he/she is Catholic, has had the effect of making the prayers appear to some to be officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church.

That is all. That is why I haven’t participated in the poll and that is why I haven’t even read the prayers after I read them the first time. And that is why I have been recommending that the OP concentrate on official Church teaching, if she (and she has stated this to be true) wants to learn about the Catholic Faith.

Putting the emphasis on the wording of prayers from an individual Catholic who is not a representative of the Church is not putting the emphasis where it belongs, if a person wants to learn official Church teaching.

Posting a poll which doesn’t even scrape the surface of the opinions of Catholics on this forum and then making inappropriate conclusions about the limited data the poll shows, is not putting the emphasis where it belongs, if a person wants to learn official Church teaching.

The way to learn about official Church teaching is to study official Church teaching and the OP has indicated that she has indeed read some of the Catechism and has other sources (such as EWTN) that she has used, which is in her favor (IMHO).

However, also IMHO, I believe that it is not just the wording of the prayers that the OP is commenting on - it is the entire “praying to Mary” issue. I believe the OP does not believe anyone should pray to Mary. This isn’t the first thread on this issue started by the OP and although I would like to believe that this thread can stand on its own, it can’t. It’s a continuation of a thread which was closed by the moderator for being off-topic.

My advice to everyone is to cool down, and pray however we want to pray, as long as it does not go against Church teaching, and even if James doesn’t think the prayers are appropriate. It is up to each individual. I take a little offense at what he said because my father (who has passed on and whom I miss very, very much) had (and has) a deep and abiding love for our Holy Mother. Although he tried to keep it a secret it became obvious to me as I grew and I loved him for his love for Mary. It’s one of the few aspects of him that I hold onto with my heart and it is because of him that I love Mary, too.

And I hope that I have not offended anyone, especially Fair Lady, by presenting my assumptions about what this thread is really about. If I am wrong, Fair Lady, please correct me.

And, as usual, if I state anything contrary to Church teaching, I humbly apologize and submit to the Magisterium.
 
That’s interesting, except there is a difference between “death” and “falling asleep” in the bible. The bible uses both terms, and they mean entirly differnet things.

Death is what we suffer as a result of sin. It’s the fear associated with the end of our mortal lives. With death one associates terror.

Falling asleep is the way things were supposed to work, it’s analogous to the Holy Mother’s transition at the end of her time here on earth. You pleasently fall asleep, and transition into Gods presense.
I shall answer with a question: are you dead when you’re asleep?

dead = asleep
 
That’s interesting, except there is a difference between “death” and “falling asleep” in the bible. The bible uses both terms, and they mean entirly differnet things.

Death is what we suffer as a result of sin. It’s the fear associated with the end of our mortal lives. With death one associates terror.

Falling asleep is the way things were supposed to work, it’s analogous to the Holy Mother’s transition at the end of her time here on earth. You pleasently fall asleep, and transition into Gods presense.
I disagree. The physical death is when your soul falls asleep. Everyone falls asleep. Even Jesus fell asleep; it is just that He woke up earlier, so He might be on the right of the Father. So every human falls asleep. At the great day of the judgment, all the fallen asleep shall awake. Some will receive spiritual death, which means annihilation. And others, at the first resurrection, will receive eternal life. God can destroy souls. We are not immortal. But He does not destroy them now, but at the end of times. Do not believe the oldest of Satan’s lies: “You will not surely die”. It is amazing how people can still believe this lie, that they will live forever in Hell. The Lake of Fire kills you. You disappear. Your soul dies. You do not live forever. You are mortal. Mortal means that you die, physically and spiritually. You can only live forever in Heaven. Hell is death, and when you die you cease to exist. Those thrown it the Lake of Fire will die, and their death is forever. Hell is death, complete death. Heaven is life, eternal life. The “You will not surely die” is still believed, which surprises me.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

By this we understand that those that do not believe in God will die, but those who believe in Him will live. Of course,everyone has a physical death. To “perish” means spiritual death. Death means ceasing to exist, physically and spiritually.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top