Prayers to Mary

[regression]

Now I am confused about you stating that prayer is not like worship.

See here:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prayer

1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish
2 : the act or practice of praying to God or a god
3 : a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural
4 : something prayed for
5 : a slight chance <haven’t got a prayer>

Pray can mean worship or can me a request. Have you heard the old English term “pray tell”? Lots of words have multiple meanings and are used in different manners through history and cultures. Also, if I recall, Judges in Britain are addressed as “Your Worship”. That doesn’t mean the person saying that worships the judges.

 

[mdifrancesco]

See here:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prayer

1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish
2 : the act or practice of praying to God or a god
3 : a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers —often used in plural
4 : something prayed for
5 : a slight chance <haven’t got a prayer>

Pray can mean worship or can me a request. Have you heard the old English term “pray tell”? Lots of words have multiple meanings and are used in different manners through history and cultures. Also, if I recall, Judges in Britain are addressed as “Your Worship”. That doesn’t mean the person saying that worships the judges.

I understand what you are saying, however, there is a difference between praying FOR someone and praying TO someone. You pray FOR a request (as you said). I have no issue with that in general. You pray TO an object of worship. (see the difference yourself in your dictionary meanings between #1 and #2).This is where I am contending.

 

[mdifrancesco]

As stated before, prayer does not always equal worship. If look up the word prayer in the dictionary, you can see it can mean praying to / worshiping a deity or ask for something (not necessarily a god):

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prayer

The Catholic Church does not say Mary (or any saint) should be worshiped like God. When I pray to Mary (for example, saying the Hail Mary), I am asking her to pray to Jesus for me.

I responded to your first comment about the dictionary meaning on my last posting (sorry - I can’t keep up with all the different postings - I’m new to this).
As far as your last comment about praying to Mary to pray to Jesus for you… (and this is just me asking) why do you feel the need to have someone pray FOR you? If you are in relationship with Jesus, you don’t need any help. He hears YOU!
He says in Jeremiah 33:3
'“Call to ME and I will answer YOU, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.”
And this one…
1 John 5:14-16
This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him."

 

[regression]

I understand what you are saying, however, there is a difference between praying FOR someone and praying TO someone. You pray FOR a request (as you said). I have no issue with that in general. You pray TO an object of worship. (see the difference yourself in your dictionary meanings between #1 and #2).This is where I am contending.

A prayer can be a request. When I pray to Mary, I request she pray for me. With the way the term “praying to” has changed, I understand how someone can think praying to is only to a god / God. I guess that is just the nature of how a language. Nevertheless, call it want you want, I both ask Mary to pray for me and I pray to God directly.

As I believe you mentioned in another post, you do now believe someone in heaven can hear you if you ask them to pray for you. I think this article sums up the practice nicely:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[regression]

I responded to your first comment about the dictionary meaning on my last posting (sorry - I can’t keep up with all the different postings - I’m new to this).
As far as your last comment about praying to Mary to pray to Jesus for you… (and this is just me asking) why do you feel the need to have someone pray FOR you? If you are in relationship with Jesus, you don’t need any help. He hears YOU!
He says in Jeremiah 33:3
'“Call to ME and I will answer YOU, and I will tell you great and mighty things, which you do not know.”
And this one…
1 John 5:14-16
This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him."

I understand about all the posts, it can get confusing at times.

I don’t feel I need to have Mary pray for me, but it sure can’t hurt. It is the same reason I will gladly pray for anyone who needs it. I pray to God directly and I ask Mary, my parents, etc to pray for me.

 

[mdifrancesco]

A prayer can be a request. When I pray to Mary, I request she pray for me. With the way the term “praying to” has changed, I understand how someone can think praying to is only to a god / God. I guess that is just the nature of how a language. Nevertheless, call it want you want, I both ask Mary to pray for me and I pray to God directly.

As I believe you mentioned in another post, you do now believe someone in heaven can hear you if you ask them to pray for you. I think this article sums up the practice nicely:

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Actually, I believe God is the only one in heaven who hears me. I can’t really find any scriptural reference that says otherwise (keeping in mind I believe that the “66 book” Bible is the true one - and that’s another thread…

 

[mdifrancesco]

I understand about all the posts, it can get confusing at times.

I don’t feel I need to have Mary pray for me, but it sure can’t hurt. It is the same reason I will gladly pray for anyone who needs it. I pray to God directly and I ask Mary, my parents, etc to pray for me.

Fair enough

 

[regression]

Actually, I believe God is the only one in heaven who hears me. I can’t really find any scriptural reference that says otherwise (keeping in mind I believe that the “66 book” Bible is the true one - and that’s another thread…

The article talked about the book of Revelation regarding the prayers of the saints. Your interpretation may be different.

However, like most things, it all boils down to authority. Each person has to decide who or what has the final authority on faith and morals. Is it the bible only (and which interpretation of the bible?) or is it the bible and the Church. I hope I’m not heading off topic here…

 

[mdifrancesco]

No… most of these topics inevitably lead to another
My only position is when I have to decide between what God has to say (the Bible) and what man has to say (the doctrine of man) , I have to side with God every time.
Romans 3:4
“…let God be found true, though every man be found a liar…”

 

[regression]

No… most of these topics inevitably lead to another
My only position is when I have to decide between what God has to say (the Bible) and what man has to say (the doctrine of man) , I have to side with God every time.
Romans 3:4
“…let God be found true, though every man be found a liar…”

I often find people breaking down Catholics and non-Catholics into people who follow the church and not the bible, and people who follow the bible. That is not the case. Catholics hold the church and the bible as authoritative. Before Jesus ascended into heaven, he didn’t give the apostles bibles and say go hand these out and let people figure it out on their own. He told the apostles to go and teach. Years later, using that authority, the church said what is the inspired word of God.

Because of that, I believe the church when she teaches about the usefulness of prayers to Mary / the saints. Again, it all goes back to authority…

 

[LittleSoldier]

No… most of these topics inevitably lead to another
My only position is when I have to decide between what God has to say (the Bible) and what man has to say (the doctrine of man) , I have to side with God every time.
Romans 3:4
“…let God be found true, though every man be found a liar…”

And if they go too far off-topic they are closed and locked. That is what has happened with other threads on this topic and is what happened to the last thread that the OP of this thread started.

We need to remain on-topic. Please.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Did you carry Jesus in your womb for nine months? Did you give birth to Him, going through the contractions and pain that giving birth entails? Did He suckle at your breasts? Did you raise Him up from an infant to adulthood?

If you didn’t, you are not like Mary and to equate yourself with her just doesn’t make sense to me. If you really believe that you carried Jesus in your womb and did all these other things for Jesus, then I really wonder.

Mary is blessed. The reason she is blessed is that she accepted the role God wanted her to accept - that of carrying Jesus in her womb and raising Him to adulthood. She did this even though she could legally have been killed by being stoned (for adultery).

Her role is unique. The rest of us have roles, also, but they are not the same. There can only be one “Mother of God.” We can be “mothers of God”, as you have typed it, but there is a difference. Mary did these things both physically and spiritually. We can only do these things spiritually.

EDIT: I made a large error when I wrote this post. I didn’t mean to say that Mary was blessed because she accepted the role God wanted her to accept. She was already blessed. When the Angel Gabriel spoke to her he called her “Full of Grace.” It is a title. She had already been blessed and was already full of grace.

I am very sorry.

 

[crazzeto]

So let us look at the verse… The verse talks about the righteousness of GOD through faith in JESUS for all those who believe. Obviously he is talking about everyone BUT God / Jesus (since that is his topic) if you read this thoroughly:
Romans 3:22-24
"even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
As far as can she be full of grace AND be a sinner, please read this scripture…
Acts 6:8
“And Stephen, FULL OF GRACE and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.”
Was Stephen now also without sin? Absolutely not!
Please understand I am not out to bash anyone’s belief system. I am just a firm believer that God’s Word is truth and the truth will set you free…

I hope you don’t mind that I changed your Font, but it was rather large which might tend to detract from responses to your comments.

My first reponse is with regards to Mary being “full of Grace” (the actual words of Gabrial BTW) and being a sinner, she was not a sinner and you have yet to provide any scripture which states otherwise. Your previous post regarding Romans 3 was shown to be a misinterpetation of the passage, dut to a missed understanding that Paul was quoting the Psalms (14/52) as I demonstrated.

I’ll provide a more detailed response to your later reference in Romans 3 when I have more time. I will say this though, Romans is a letter written about a blade, a flint blade the one used to circomsise jewish males on the 8th day. You will find reference to this in Acts 15:

drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm

Jerusalem.

1 And some coming down from Judea, taught the brethren: That except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved. 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small contest with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of the other side, should go up to the apostles and priests to Jerusalem about this question. 3 They therefore being brought on their way by the church, passed through Phenice, and Samaria, relating the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
…

I recommend you read the entire chapter, because this very heresy is the basis of the letter to the Romans. Hence Pauls langauge, there is neither Jew nor Gentile… Paul is saying all one need bring to the table (so to speak) to be a Christian is their faith & obediance as Abraham did so long ago.

 

[Cristian_B]

Why should she be sinless?

 

[LittleSoldier]

So let us look at the verse… The verse talks about the righteousness of GOD through faith in JESUS for all those who believe. Obviously he is talking about everyone BUT God / Jesus (since that is his topic) if you read this thoroughly:
Romans 3:22-24
"even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
As far as can she be full of grace AND be a sinner, please read this scripture…
Acts 6:8
“And Stephen, FULL OF GRACE and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.”
Was Stephen now also without sin? Absolutely not!
Please understand I am not out to bash anyone’s belief system. I am just a firm believer that God’s Word is truth and the truth will set you free…

The following is a quote (with minor changes in punctuation) from a prior thread which discussed this very topic. My computer won’t allow me to cut and paste Greek letters so this is the best I can do. For more info please follow the link. This is the way the original Greek refers to Stephen:

“stefanoV de plhrhV caritoV kai dunamewV epoiei terata kai shmeia megala en tw law.”

The focus of the verb is the word “epoiei” which is a verb that is imperfect tense. This is still a past tense verb so the verse is still talking of an action that is no longer happening, but it is a progressive. It can be translated as, “was doing”. The entire verse can be translated literally as:

“Stephen, but full of grace and strength, was doing miracles and great signs among the people.”

This is speaking of something that was being done sometime in the past but is not being done now.

Here is somewhat how the Greek would be pronounced:

“stephanos de playrais charitos kai dunamaos epoiei terata kai saimaya megala en to lao.”

The imperfect tense is past time just like the pluperfect.

It is specifically speaking of something in the past. Stephen was full of grace at the time when doing the great works, but it does not say he is still full of Grace. Whereas in the Mary passage it continues into the present.

Luke 1:28 reads:

“kai eiselqwn proV authn eipen, caire, kecaritwmenh, o kurioV meta sou.”

The word “kecaritwmenh” is used here. This is a perfect passive participle. It is also feminine. A participle is a verb that is used to describe the subject. The perfect tense describes an action in present time which has a completed aspect. In this verse it is used as a title and means basically “you who have been graced” or “you who have been filled with grace”. This word is not speaking of just a little grace, it is speaking of an abundance of grace. Although this is a completed action, the effects are still on going in this verse. Mary is still full of grace when the angel says this.

This is somewhat how the Greek is pronounced:

“kai eiselthone pros autain eipen, chaire, kecharitomenay, o kurios meta sou.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=55634
(thank you, Jimmy!!)

To sum it up, the original Greek uses different terms to refer to Mary and Stephen. When it is used as referring to Mary, the term is a title. The Angel Gabriel came to Mary and said “Hail, Full of Grace…” This it not used as a title when it refers to Stephen.

The term “full of grace” does not mean the same when it is used as referring to Stephen and when it is used as referring to Mary.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Jesus did NOT sin. Please read my comment that I made recently addressing that same question. The passage is speaking OF God and Jesus to everyone else (I have it listed in my last response).

Of course Jesus did not sin. My point is that you took a Scripture passage and then interpreted it. You used your own words, not another passage. You did it again in the next part of this post. But you wanted only Scripture in responses made to you. We have to play by the same rules.

And as for Mary being a sinner (and again, we are talking original sin - not a SINNER),
Mary even acknowledged that she needed a Savior. “And my spirit rejoices in God my SAVIOUR, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:47-48). Mary knew that she was a sinner and that what was being done through her was by God’s grace and not any merit on her part. God did not choose Mary because of her “blessedness,” Mary became blessed when she submitted unto the LORD and carried the Lamb of God. (only sinners need saviours)

I know you’re new here and probably don’t know this, but when you quote from a website it’s considered good form to provide a link (or other reference) to that website.

Mary did need a savior, but not because she sinned. It’s not true that only sinners need saviors. Mary didn’t sin but she still needed to be protected from Satan. What do you think Satan would have done to Mary if he had gotten his claws on her? I think Satan would most likely have tried to stop the birth of Jesus. Mary definitely needed a savior, both before and after Jesus’ birth.

Now I am confused about you stating that prayer is not like worship. Please go to dictionary.com and you will find this definition:
PRAYER - to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
I believe that is close enough of an interpretation as i need to make my point. God does not share His glory with ANYONE:
Exodus 34:14
“for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God”

I didn’t state that prayer “is not like worship.” I said that prayer is not the same as worship.

Here is a definition (along with synonyms), from another website:

1. address to God: a spoken or unspoken address to God, a deity, or a saint. It may express praise, thanksgiving, confession, or a request for something such as help or somebody’s well-being.
2. addressing of God: the act or practice of making spoken or unspoken addresses to God, a deity, or a saint
   “kneeling in prayer”
3. religion
   Same as prayers
4. something wished for: something that is wanted or hoped for very much
   “My only prayer is that it doesn’t last too long.”
   PLURAL NOUN
5. religious service: a religious service at which prayers are said
   “attended evening prayers at seven”
   13th century. Via Old French preiere < Latin precarius “obtained by entreaty” < precari (see pray) ]
   not have a prayer to have not even a slight chance of achieving something
   I don’t have a prayer of getting the manager’s job.
   Thesaurus
   NOUN
   Synonyms: entreaty, appeal, plea, request, desire, hope, wish, supplication, imploration, petition
   Synonyms: invocation, meditation, contemplation, devotions, chant, petition, supplication, appeal, imploration"

bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+prayer&FORM=DTPDIA

I don’t see the word “worship” used at all in this definition. And I picked this site at random.

And for the intercession… I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, however, the intercession I speak of leans more to MEDIATOR:
The word “mediator,” which is found in six places in the New Testament comes from a Greek word that means; an action by someone on behalf of another in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant, a medium of communication, arbitrator or what we would call an intercessor.
Mediators are knowledgeable and trained in the areas they mediate. Jesus has the qualifications:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance – now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15).
Jesus alone has the credtials to mediate for us. And yes, we can all pray for one another, but calling on people who are dead to intecede… please show me that in scripture.

I will have to respond to this part of your post in another post. I’m sorry but I’m having computer problems and I keep losing my responses (and it’s also going very very slow).

Sorry about the font size. I just got yelled at from someone else who said it was too small!

No problem at all. But what is weird is that when I took the “Size” out of your post and then quoted it in my reply it showed up as very small. I’m not sure why that is. Maybe you can test different font sizes - maybe ‘2’ would be a good setting. It’s weird that this is happening because I haven’t seen it before but I have my computer zoom level at 150 percent (because it has a large screen) and with another member’s posts I found that her post was at the correct size but her signature was absolutely tiny. I could hardly see it. So I apologize for saying your font size is too large. Maybe someone who is more computer-literate can help.

 

[davidv]

Why should she be sinless?

To prove that, with God’ grace, we too can be sinless.

 

[mdifrancesco]

I hope you don’t mind that I changed your Font, but it was rather large which might tend to detract from responses to your comments.

My first reponse is with regards to Mary being “full of Grace” (the actual words of Gabrial BTW) and being a sinner, she was not a sinner and you have yet to provide any scripture which states otherwise. Your previous post regarding Romans 3 was shown to be a misinterpetation of the passage, dut to a missed understanding that Paul was quoting the Psalms (14/52) as I demonstrated.

I’ll provide a more detailed response to your later reference in Romans 3 when I have more time. I will say this though, Romans is a letter written about a blade, a flint blade the one used to circomsise jewish males on the 8th day. You will find reference to this in Acts 15:

drbo.org/chapter/51015.htm

I recommend you read the entire chapter, because this very heresy is the basis of the letter to the Romans. Hence Pauls langauge, there is neither Jew nor Gentile… Paul is saying all one need bring to the table (so to speak) to be a Christian is their faith & obediance as Abraham did so long ago.

How many scriptures do you want?
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
He is emphaisizing that Jesus was the only one without sin (or he would have mentioned Mary also).
Or how about this one??? Here John is talking to believers:
John 1:8-10
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

The truth is here:
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

…and now it is I that am praying for you.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

How many scriptures do you want?
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
He is emphaisizing that Jesus was the only one without sin (or he would have mentioned Mary also).
Or how about this one??? Here John is talking to believers:
John 1:8-10
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

The truth is here:
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

…and now it is I that am praying for you.

None of your quotes prove your point, nor are they the least bit convincing.

 

[crazzeto]

How many scriptures do you want?
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
He is emphaisizing that Jesus was the only one without sin (or he would have mentioned Mary also).
Or how about this one??? Here John is talking to believers:
John 1:8-10
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

The truth is here:
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

…and now it is I that am praying for you.

mdifrancesco,

Not a single scripture you provided indicates that all human beings with out exception are sinners. I realize you interpet it that way, at least to this point due to the fact that you hold this theological principal.

But I would ask you to re-read fairly, no where in any one of these passages does it say all human beings are sinless. The closest you got was with Romans 3, but it was proved that you did not understand the reference to the Psalms. The source material Paul quotes explicitly states it is that among “the fools who say in thier hearts: there is no God” there are none who do good.